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#MeToo Becomes #LeaveMeAlone

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:41 pm

Right wing humour squad wrote:
Galloism wrote:It's worth noting that it doesn't even really have to be malicious.

Your memory is like a telephone game - every time you recall an event you warp it. So if you have something that made you slightly uncomfortable, and you revisit it over and over and over again, it will gradually morph from uncomfortable, to creepy, to harassment, to assaulty, to rapey. The event itself literally can warp in your mind until you remember something, quite vividly and sincerely, that never even happened.

And this isn't a woman thing or a man thing, but a people thing that both men and women can experience.


Absolutely and memory is a bit worse than telephone games. With how programable it is.

Given the equality of sexual violence between the sexes the meto movement seems to be lacking a large amount of male victims and female predators. So it certainly seems a female on male thing.

Asia Argento, for example. She got exposed for her bullshit. I mean, rates of sexual assault are slightly higher among men-assaulting-women, though not really that much. It's because some in our society believe that female-on-male rape is "cool", or "wanted". That's the fault of both over-masculinity and the acceptance of stuff like that by women.
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Right wing humour squad
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Postby Right wing humour squad » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:43 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Right wing humour squad wrote:
Absolutely and memory is a bit worse than telephone games. With how programable it is.

Given the equality of sexual violence between the sexes the meto movement seems to be lacking a large amount of male victims and female predators. So it certainly seems a female on male thing.


How closely have you tracked it? Because there seem to have been quite a few male #metoo tweets.


Not much really. But I doubt it’s near parity.
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The South Falls
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:45 pm

Right wing humour squad wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
How closely have you tracked it? Because there seem to have been quite a few male #metoo tweets.


Not much really. But I doubt it’s near parity.

It's definitely not non-existent.
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FelrikTheDeleted
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:47 pm

Galloism wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Well, as a security guard, I have directly witnessed and heard stories of colleagues being discharged from their contract or outright fired for something as benign as a misplaced comment and stepping his feet into an apartment.

The first thing they remind us at the occasional meetings? That such incidents can destroy us.

So yeah, let's just say that I have the Damocles sword of accusations hanging over me daily.

When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:49 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Galloism wrote:When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).

Alright, now that's just plain sexist. There's absolutely nothing that says an adult man can't be seated next to an adult woman. Not a single person has been molested on a plane.
Last edited by The South Falls on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is an MT or PMT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.
Satsuki is in fact the edgiest I could get without breaking site rules.
You have seen a wild South Fallus Fallusi Texaso nativa. Your Friendly Neighborhood Black Kid. Social Democrat,
sometimes breaks rules. Sorry! I've got myself a nice situation with tea, so I'm doing good there.

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Postby Napkiraly » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:51 pm

The South Falls wrote:Yea man, I think that's just an overreaction to a problem. I'm around girls all the time. I don't get arrested, or accused of anything. It might be because of age, but I think it's a gross misrepresentation of the solution to say "Because men have been accused of assault, I'm not going around women!" That's just a toxic attitude, which fosters gender segregation, and hate of women. It's just a circle.

One of Neil deGrasse Tyson's supposed misdeeds is....*shuffles cards* inviting a woman over for cheese and wine.
Last edited by Napkiraly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby New haven america » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:52 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Yea man, I think that's just an overreaction to a problem. I'm around girls all the time. I don't get arrested, or accused of anything. It might be because of age, but I think it's a gross misrepresentation of the solution to say "Because men have been accused of assault, I'm not going around women!" That's just a toxic attitude, which fosters gender segregation, and hate of women. It's just a circle.

One of Neil deGrasse Tyson's supposed misdeed is....*shuffles cards* inviting a woman over for cheese and wine.

To the electric chair with him.
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FelrikTheDeleted
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:53 pm

The South Falls wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).

Alright now that's just plain sexist. There's absolutely nothing that says an adult man can't be seated next to an adult woman. Not a single person will has been molested on a plane.


It was defended by the New South Wales Commissioner for Children and Young People Gillian Calvert on the basis that there are more male sex offenders than female ones (on the New Zealand register I presume).

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:53 pm

I think that we're coming at this from the wrong direction.

As a rape survivor and counsellor on the subject, I was enitially very supportive of the #meToo movement; that opinion has now changed. The culture of blindly believing sexual assault alegations without any formal proceedings needing to be brought has not just led to false accusations becoming easier, but it has led to the very real risk of lawsuits which affect the business as well as the person within said business, due to the concept of vicarious liability. It is the job of employers to avoid paying out very large sums of money that can wreck the business, or to get embroiled in a PR disaster; it is he job of HR departments to try and stop that from happening and it is the job of legal teams to tell employers how best to stop that from happening. Since MeToo, the legal playing field has changed and legal departments don't always know where they stand, coupled with the law around harassment being rather unfairly weighted towards the victim it creates an atmosphere in which normally risk-evading individuals try and do anything they can to avoid risks even more. Is this situation good? Of course not; but it is understandable.
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:55 pm

New haven america wrote:
Napkiraly wrote:One of Neil deGrasse Tyson's supposed misdeed is....*shuffles cards* inviting a woman over for cheese and wine.

To the electric chair with him.


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The South Falls
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:55 pm

Napkiraly wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Yea man, I think that's just an overreaction to a problem. I'm around girls all the time. I don't get arrested, or accused of anything. It might be because of age, but I think it's a gross misrepresentation of the solution to say "Because men have been accused of assault, I'm not going around women!" That's just a toxic attitude, which fosters gender segregation, and hate of women. It's just a circle.

One of Neil deGrasse Tyson's supposed misdeeds is....*shuffles cards* inviting a woman over for cheese and wine.

Ban him from existence for daring to ask.
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Alright now that's just plain sexist. There's absolutely nothing that says an adult man can't be seated next to an adult woman. Not a single person will has been molested on a plane.


It was defended by the New South Wales Commissioner for Children and Young People Gillian Calvert on the basis that there are more male sex offenders than female ones (on the New Zealand register I presume).

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sometimes breaks rules. Sorry! I've got myself a nice situation with tea, so I'm doing good there.

Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
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I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that. Yes, we're pretty much a different Australia.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:56 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Galloism wrote:When I used to drive a school bus, they told us to never touch or hug a child, no matter how much the child wants to hold our hand or hug us or anything like that.

Female drivers were not so restricted.


That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).


Good. Who wants to sit next to a kid that isn't theirs during a flight?

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Xanthal
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Postby Xanthal » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:57 pm

Right wing humour squad wrote:The problem isn’t men harassing women, we already have some effective methods of dealing with this, while women harassing men is still ignored.

It’s fake, overblown and malicious claims. Which is a massively under researched area.

You say that, but the methods clearly aren't that effective when men can prey on women and have it remain basically an open secret for decades before it catches up with them, if ever. I definitely agree that more attention needs to be paid to male victims of sexual assault, but the idea that we shouldn't be more effective in identifying and prosecuting those who victimize women because we're not effective enough in identifying and prosecuting those who victimize men makes no sense- we need to do both.

The "false accusation" argument doesn't hold much water because that can apply to every type of crime. The possibility that an accusation is false (which I understand to be uncommon, but these things do happen) shouldn't preclude us from investigating it as if it were true- i.e. the way we'd expect any other crime to be investigated.
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Tronn
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You must look at both sides first.

Postby Tronn » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:59 pm

So I fully support woman rights and agree sexual harassment is wrong, but both sides should always be listened to. It is sexist to align with the woman and dismiss the man. Im not saying to silence the woman but to hear both sides equally. This is not sexism. Its just men can be persecuted in awful ways even if the woman recants or is proven to be lying. For example, with Kareem Hunt the woman used racial and obscure language among other things. Kareem did the wrong thing for using violence (though if it was a white male he would have been called a Hero in modern day media) but the woman he assaulted has NOT been called out at all for being a bigot. I just feel at this point men are acting like abused spouses because no matter what we do we are always treated like shit. Like men cant even ride the train without some crazy Russian feminist pouring bleach on their pants. Feminism is a good concept but the truth is that it is just male bashing. So you cant call out men for just trying to be comfortable and not being mentally abused. If #MeToo was fair then men wouldnt have a problem working with women. Not to mention many women like to work with just women specifically because it is literal nature that the two are different. It is not a women hate men or men hate women most times its just a common interests thing. Not saying it is always like this, some women have the same interests as men and vice versa which isnt wrong at all but just mashing all people together and saying if they dont like it they are sexist is never a good idea and will make both sides very uncomfortable. So in all, I am not saying men or women should not work together im just saying you can blame them for not naturally wanting to work for a job that they are not used to. It would be nice if everyone could work side by side but a duck doesnt give birth to a moose you know?
Last edited by Tronn on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:59 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).


Good. Who wants to sit next to a kid that isn't theirs during a flight?

The guy that BA moved, which made him further away from his pregnant wife probably would have appreciated not being moved.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Good. Who wants to sit next to a kid that isn't theirs during a flight?

The guy that BA moved, which made him further away from his pregnant wife probably would have appreciated not being moved.


Which guy? Why not just swap him with his wife?
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:00 pm

Tronn wrote:So I fully support woman rights and agree sexual harassment is wrong, but both sides should always be listened to. It is sexist to align with the woman and dismiss the man. Im not saying to silence the woman but to hear both sides equally. This is not sexism. Its just men can be persecuted in awful ways even if the woman recants or is proven to be lying. For example, with Kareem Hunt the woman used racial and obscure language among other things. Kareem did the wrong thing for using violence (though if it was a white male he would have been called a Hero in modern day media) but the woman he assaulted has NOT been called out at all for being a bigot. I just feel at this point men are acting like abused spouses because no matter what we do we are always treated like shit. Like men cant even ride the train without some crazy Russian feminist pouring bleach on their pants. Feminism is a good concept but the truth is that it is just male bashing. So you cant call out men for just trying to be comfortable and not being mentally abused. If #MeToo was fair then men wouldnt have a problem working with women. Not to mention many women like to work with just women specifically because it is literal nature that the two are different. It is not a women hate men or men hate women most times its just a common interests thing. Not saying it is always like this, some women have the same interests as men and vice versa which isnt wrong at all but just mashing all people together and saying if they dont like it they are sexist is never a good idea and will make both sides very uncomfortable. So in all, I am not saying men or women should not work together im just saying you can blame them for not naturally wanting to work for a job that they are not used to. It would be nice if everyone could work side by side but a duck doesnt give birth to a moose you know?

I don't think he'd have been called a hero if he was a white man...white woman and that's a whole new story.
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FelrikTheDeleted
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Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:01 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
That reminds me of the airline seating controversy, wherein adult men were told they had to be moved, and replaced with adult women, because they aren’t allowed to be seated next to unaccompanied minors, according to policy. Most of the airlines dropped the policy after it got public attention, but I’m pretty sure Qantas and Air New Zealand still have that policy (iirc).


Good. Who wants to sit next to a kid that isn't theirs during a flight?


Sometime you just don’t have a choice, and why would you subject some nice lady to such a fate?

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:01 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The guy that BA moved, which made him further away from his pregnant wife probably would have appreciated not being moved.


Which guy?

His name was Mirko Fischer. He sued BA, won, and so they changed the policy.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:02 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Good. Who wants to sit next to a kid that isn't theirs during a flight?


Sometime you just don’t have a choice, and why would you subject some nice lady to such a fate?


Not my monkey, not my problem.

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:04 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Tronn wrote:So I fully support woman rights and agree sexual harassment is wrong, but both sides should always be listened to. It is sexist to align with the woman and dismiss the man. Im not saying to silence the woman but to hear both sides equally. This is not sexism. Its just men can be persecuted in awful ways even if the woman recants or is proven to be lying. For example, with Kareem Hunt the woman used racial and obscure language among other things. Kareem did the wrong thing for using violence (though if it was a white male he would have been called a Hero in modern day media) but the woman he assaulted has NOT been called out at all for being a bigot. I just feel at this point men are acting like abused spouses because no matter what we do we are always treated like shit. Like men cant even ride the train without some crazy Russian feminist pouring bleach on their pants. Feminism is a good concept but the truth is that it is just male bashing. So you cant call out men for just trying to be comfortable and not being mentally abused. If #MeToo was fair then men wouldnt have a problem working with women. Not to mention many women like to work with just women specifically because it is literal nature that the two are different. It is not a women hate men or men hate women most times its just a common interests thing. Not saying it is always like this, some women have the same interests as men and vice versa which isnt wrong at all but just mashing all people together and saying if they dont like it they are sexist is never a good idea and will make both sides very uncomfortable. So in all, I am not saying men or women should not work together im just saying you can blame them for not naturally wanting to work for a job that they are not used to. It would be nice if everyone could work side by side but a duck doesnt give birth to a moose you know?

I don't think he'd have been called a hero if he was a white man...white woman and that's a whole new story.

You think anyone could be called a hero for beating the shit out of a man?
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You have seen a wild South Fallus Fallusi Texaso nativa. Your Friendly Neighborhood Black Kid. Social Democrat,
sometimes breaks rules. Sorry! I've got myself a nice situation with tea, so I'm doing good there.

Political Compass Results:

Economic: -6.88
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I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that. Yes, we're pretty much a different Australia.

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Tronn
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Postby Tronn » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:04 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think that we're coming at this from the wrong direction.

As a rape survivor and counsellor on the subject, I was enitially very supportive of the #meToo movement; that opinion has now changed. The culture of blindly believing sexual assault alegations without any formal proceedings needing to be brought has not just led to false accusations becoming easier, but it has led to the very real risk of lawsuits which affect the business as well as the person within said business, due to the concept of vicarious liability. It is the job of employers to avoid paying out very large sums of money that can wreck the business, or to get embroiled in a PR disaster; it is he job of HR departments to try and stop that from happening and it is the job of legal teams to tell employers how best to stop that from happening. Since MeToo, the legal playing field has changed and legal departments don't always know where they stand, coupled with the law around harassment being rather unfairly weighted towards the victim it creates an atmosphere in which normally risk-evading individuals try and do anything they can to avoid risks even more. Is this situation good? Of course not; but it is understandable.


I know, #MeToo isnt a bad concept its just being used for the wrong reasons to target people blindly at this point. Many people have been Sexually Assaulted and have a voice and should be heard, not the people who have basically ruined the movement and turned it into a weapon. I also wish you good luck.
Last edited by Tronn on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Which guy?

His name was Mirko Fischer. He sued BA, won, and so they changed the policy.


He was asked to move back to his original seat, which was next to his wife. He wasn't asked to move away from her.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:05 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I don't think he'd have been called a hero if he was a white man...white woman and that's a whole new story.

You think anyone could be called a hero for beating the shit out of a man?

I think if a woman was beating the shit out of a man who was shouting racist shit, she'd have been called a hero by certain sections of the media, yes.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:06 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:His name was Mirko Fischer. He sued BA, won, and so they changed the policy.


He was asked to move back to his original seat, which was next to his wife. He wasn't asked to move away from her.

Apologies, wiki was sourcing the mail.
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Citizen of Europeia and The Kingdom of Great Britain.
Nation out of the WA for gameplay purposes, and represented by Empire.

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