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End the lies: The Confederacy was about slavery

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Phenia
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Postby Phenia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:08 pm

Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.


I don't know where you're getting that from.

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Bryn Shander
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Postby Bryn Shander » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 pm

Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.
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Vervaria
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Postby Vervaria » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 pm

Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.

Fort Sumter was Federal, not state property.
Lulz: viewtopic.php?p=2707685#p2707685
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:09 pm

Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:New Orleans was the most prosperous city, but, it was largely only prosperous for itself, through the port and the various gambling/bars involved, still is to this day really...

That cotton's worth nothing to the CSA if they can't get it out of the country, and New Orleans was about the best port to sell from. That's why they were absolutely shafted after the situation there fell out of the Confederacy's hands.

yeah, but, the Blockade, and the fact that Britain figured out it's cheaper to get the same thing in India put the nail in that coffin well before New Orleans fell...

And from a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

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My 3rd Floor Flat
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Postby My 3rd Floor Flat » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Yootopia wrote:Mmm yes, please take everything I said and multiply it ad retardedum.

The USA and CSA shared a land border, the USA and UK didn't. As soon as you get random states popping up all over the place in fairly established states, Things Start To Go Wrong. See the entirely unsurprising takeover of Mexico by European powers while the US was distracted. The US was already approaching its proper size by the time of the Civil War, unlike when it was just some shitty towns that wanted to secede.

If you're right next to a country in which Things Are Going Wrong, people are going to be a lot more understanding if you go in and change it than if it's all the way across the sea, especially when that changing is being done against a bunch of hicks who are propping up the slave trade at a time when it was not in fashion.

This is why the US seceeding from the UK was seen by the international community, and has been recorded in posterity, as an Alright Thing, and why the CSA getting its arse kicked by its territorial neighbour has also been recorded as Probably A Good Thing.


Yes capital letters always solve everything...

In anycase, it comes down to who won, the winners write history after all.
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.


You recall wrong.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.


Not really. People have the right to self determination. And that is the end of it.

People with darker skin have that right to self determination and always have. Slavery was an institution that violated it in the most extreme ways imaginable. War against the slave owners was not just acceptable or justifiable. It would be unethical to not do everything possible (including acts of violence) to liberate them.
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:New Orleans was the most prosperous city, but, it was largely only prosperous for itself, through the port and the various gambling/bars involved, still is to this day really...

That cotton's worth nothing to the CSA if they can't get it out of the country, and New Orleans was about the best port to sell from. That's why they were absolutely shafted after the situation there fell out of the Confederacy's hands.

yeah, but, the Blockade, and the fact that Britain figured out it's cheaper to get the same thing in India put the nail in that coffin well before New Orleans fell...

And from a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

Largely due to Northern Incompetence well and brilliant warfighting by Lee, Stuart, Longstreet and Jackson. :p
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Phenia wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.


I don't know where you're getting that from.

I think he's referring to the fact that people claim the US Declaration of Indepence was justified because it had "important reasons" behind it (i.e. taxes), while the Southern Declaration of Secession is seen to be 'wrong' because it did not have "important reasons" behind it.

The answer to that, of course, being that history is written by the victors.
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Vervaria wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.

Fort Sumter was Federal, not state property.

And irrelevant, it was in South Carolina, when it seceded, the Federal Government no longer had any authority over it...Anymore than Britain owned its forts in the United States after we declared Independence...

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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:11 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.


You recall wrong.


That was me... I went back in time and pooped on their lawn.
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.


Not really. People have the right to self determination. And that is the end of it.

People with darker skin have that right to self determination and always have. Slavery was an institution that violated it in the most extreme ways imaginable. War against the slave owners was not just acceptable or justifiable. It would be unethical to not do everything possible (including acts of violence) to liberate them.

So they went to war because they wanted to be ethical?
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.

Fort Sumter was Federal, not state property.

And irrelevant, it was in South Carolina, when it seceded, the Federal Government no longer had any authority over it...Anymore than Britain owned its forts in the United States after we declared Independence...

If the fort still belonged to the North would that mean the Citadel still belonged to the North? Thus Sherman should be arrested for dereliction of duty for leaving the school in the first place. :lol:
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Techno-Soviet
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Postby Techno-Soviet » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:12 pm

Palledonia wrote:Who on here is defending the Confederacy?


I could name a few...

EDIT:

Image

That man is amazing.
Last edited by Techno-Soviet on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:13 pm

Natapoc wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.


You recall wrong.


That was me... I went back in time and pooped on their lawn.


I officially endorse this application of time travel. :)
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Melkor Unchained
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Postby Melkor Unchained » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:14 pm

Phenia wrote:
Melkor Unchained wrote:But has anyone pointed out yet (especially after all this talk about Britain) that slavery began under European rule, and that the colonies were set up to depend on it? Not that I'm defending the practice, but I can't help but roll my eyes when Europeans wax judgmental on American race relations. Not saying that's happening in this thread, but I find it intensely hypocritical when Euros scold us over slavery when they were still slaughtering Africans well after the US Civil war.


They had however outlawed slavery before the US did.

Yeah, but not that long before. If Europe abolished slavery 100 years earlier and didn't practice violent colonialism, I'd probably respect their criticism a bit more than I presently do. But to say, in effect, that we're morally inferior because we didn't abolish a system that at least half of our country was built to rely on "soon enough" is what really grates me, especially considering many Europeans' blithe ignorance about what their own governments were doing at the exact same time.

And it's not as if the US wasn't slaughtering people in the name of imperialism after the ACW. Philippine-American War for example. The "pacification campaign."

Oh, for sure. I doubt there's any government out there that doesn't have some blood on their hands, and America's conduct has certainly not been above reproach.
Last edited by Melkor Unchained on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yootopia
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Postby Yootopia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:14 pm

Maurepas wrote:From a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

The US civil war didn't last for a long time.
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:16 pm

Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:From a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

The US civil war didn't last for a long time.

It lasted as long as WWII for the US at least, ;)


But, I think it could've gone on longer than it did if the places I mentioned had remained unconquered, Sherman kinda took care of that, however...

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Yootopia
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Postby Yootopia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:16 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:From a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

The US civil war didn't last for a long time.

It lasted as long as WWII for the US at least, ;)

To reiterate, the US civil war didn't last for a long time.
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:17 pm

Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:
Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:From a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

The US civil war didn't last for a long time.

It lasted as long as WWII for the US at least, ;)

To reiterate, the US civil war didn't last for a long time.

Touché, I suppose, :lol2:

I guess our definitions of long time differ...

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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:18 pm

Techno-Soviet wrote:
Palledonia wrote:Who on here is defending the Confederacy?


I could name a few...

EDIT:

Image


That man is amazing.

Sherman is a badass no doubt.
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Natapoc
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Postby Natapoc » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:18 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:
Yootopia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:From a Military perspective, the war can, and did, continue long after that economic "advantage" is gone...

The US civil war didn't last for a long time.

It lasted as long as WWII for the US at least, ;)

To reiterate, the US civil war didn't last for a long time.

Touché, I suppose, :lol2:

I guess our definitions of long time differ...


From the flags flying in some parts of the south I'm not sure the civil war is over yet (to some people).
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Phenia
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Postby Phenia » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.

Fort Sumter was Federal, not state property.

And irrelevant, it was in South Carolina, when it seceded, the Federal Government no longer had any authority over it...Anymore than Britain owned its forts in the United States after we declared Independence...


The authority of the USA doesn't just magically evaporate because a bunch of slave-owning yokels decide to take their toys and go home.

It is unreasonable in the extreme to expect a military base held by the US government to leave immediately the moment the local anti-USA crowd decides to call their rebellious treason a "confederacy."

And furthermore it is nothing but an act of war to then fire on that fort. But even IF as you say that Fort Sumter magically transferred authority and ownership to the Confederacy, then pray tell, why was the Confederacy attacking its own fort? Oh, right- just attacking the troops there. Golly, it's almost like they wanted to start a war or something!
:roll:

The Confederacy fanboyism here is nauseating..

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Lacadaemon
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Postby Lacadaemon » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Melkor Unchained wrote:Yeah, but not that long before. If Europe abolished slavery 100 years earlier and didn't practice violent colonialism, I'd probably respect their criticism a bit more than I presently do. But to say, in effect, that we're morally inferior because we didn't abolish a system that at least half of our country was built to rely on "soon enough" is what really grates me, especially considering many Europeans' blithe ignorance about what their own governments were doing at the exact same time.


True that. It's not like the British weren't thrilled with the sugar islands they got from the deal.
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Vervaria
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Postby Vervaria » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Bryn Shander wrote:
Vervaria wrote:
Derscon wrote:So?

Basically, what I'm getting is that "People can have self-determination, unless I don't like their opinions." Cool story bro.

Slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back, yes, and the direct cause of secession. However, it is intensely intellectually dishonest to lay everything on the backs of "They just want to whip them negro folk." Did the states secede because of slavery? Yes. Was the War of Northern Aggression fought because of slavery? Not by a long shot.

Funny, I seem to recall reading something about the South firing on Federal property.....

Funny, I seem to recall Yankee troops squatting on Confederate property.

Fort Sumter was Federal, not state property.

And irrelevant, it was in South Carolina, when it seceded, the Federal Government no longer had any authority over it...Anymore than Britain owned its forts in the United States after we declared Independence...

Not necessarily, the US has military bases in other countries....
Lulz: viewtopic.php?p=2707685#p2707685
Fact book
Robustian wrote:If you disagree with me, you are wrong. Period.

Ashmoria wrote:it worries me more when people who hate the government and dont think it can do a good job at anything get into power and start running things.

Wanderjar wrote:hiding behind this "I WANT SOURCES" wall is very quaint

Self--Esteem wrote:No. I love smearing those people who evidently like their country blown by a nuke and who are too foolish to realise that middle-eastern terrorism is nothing to be fond of.

Novistranaya wrote:After the Civil War, the majority of Southerners were more than happy to accept defeat and acknowledge the fact that (though not immediately) blacks were going to have the same rights as them.

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