[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Genivaria]

Presumably the woman wins, through the fact that she doesn't have to deal with a pregnancy she doesn't want nor does she have to deal with the guy anymore.

I fail to see how that's a loss, TBH.

She doesn’t want the pregnancy, the guy does. Once the guy gets the baby, she doesn’t have to see the baby or him. Everyone wins.

Except for the woman who has to carry it against her will.

[Napkiraly]

If the qualifier of being born is arbitrary, what says we have to stop at conception? Masturbation is murdering hundreds of thousands of babies!

No they aren't actually. Are you aware of how human fertilization works?

[Luminesa]

That’s a bit of an assumption, we’re talking about what happens before it’s born. You could ask him what he thinks about the baby after it’s born...

No it's not, were literally talking about what could happen after it's born.

Follow along or don't get involved.

I was following, pardon me. Hence why I was answering about the father wanting the baby and the mama not wanting it.

[New haven america]

And here's the fault with your argument!

Health issues that come with pregnancy: Weight gain, mood swings, hormonal issues, nausea, soreness and swelling in the joints and breasts, and an overall decreased quality of life. After pregnancy you have: Lack of bladder control, postpartum depression, blood pressure problems, gestational diabetes, bone density issues, cancer, etc...

The woman doesn't want to deal with that, then she shouldn't have to.

These all depend on the woman’s individual body and health, some women have these and some women don’t.

I restate my claim: They don't want to have to deal with those health issues, they don't have to.

Also, all women go through pregnancy issues to some extent.

[Hrythingia]

She doesn’t want the pregnancy, the guy does. Once the guy gets the baby, she doesn’t have to see the baby or him. Everyone wins.

Except for the woman who has to carry it against her will.

Unless she was raped she choose to take the risk.

[The South Falls]

If the qualifier of being born is arbitrary, what says we have to stop at conception? Masturbation is murdering hundreds of thousands of babies!

No they aren't actually. Are you aware of how human fertilization works?

Yes. I am. But, if being born is an arbitrary construct, then what grounds any other construct?

[Napkiraly]

I don't think the fetus wants to put up with death by that metric.

Fetus is incapable of giving or having a say in the matter.

Doesn't mean it wants to die.

[Jebslund]

Well, put every pest control, lawn care, and animal shelter worker on death row, then, because they're all mass-murderers. Farmers, too. And let's not forget florists, those demons who cull life just because it looks pretty and don't even have the decency to give it a quick death! :clap:

Human life is different to plant or other common beasts since we actually have souls.

The qualifier you used was "life". Insects and plants are life. Get the fuck back here with those goalposts, because a foetus is about as sapient as any plant we're aware of, and less sapient than any pests commonly killed in droves for the crime of being an annoyance.

[Luminesa]

She doesn’t want the pregnancy, the guy does. Once the guy gets the baby, she doesn’t have to see the baby or him. Everyone wins.

Except for the woman who has to carry it against her will.

I mean, yeah, she has to carry it, but she won’t have to raise it for 18 years. He will. She can go and do essentially whatever. It’s a trade of 9 months for 18 years.

[Katganistan]

They might go to a foster home, better kill em instead.
~Katganistan

Apparently tossing straw everywhere is your only argument.

That's what happens when your arguments are crap. Straw everywhere.

[The South Falls]

Except for the woman who has to carry it against her will.

Unless she was raped she choose to take the risk.

It's like a reverse lottery. You get reward, at the risk of loss. The issue being that you want that "loss" (unwanted pregnancy) to be permanent.

[Indo-Malaysia]

^ I likings this post.

Ignoring the whole custody argument, and whether or not abortion is morally okay, I believe both parents should have an equal say in the child/fetus/blob/cells. Each contributed a half (Sperm, eggo), and thus instead of the women having an unquestioned right to whether a child lives, both parents who contributed dna in consensual sex (if it's rape, I think abortion is okay as the rapist should be publically hung) should have an equal say.

It’s contradictory to say that one wants to avoid unwanted pregnancies while condemning the parent who wants the baby. If it’s an unwanted pregnancy that is now wanted, what’s the problem?

There isn't a problem in that scenario.

The issue is that even if a parent wants the child, the mother can say no and kill it anyway. Unless it's rape, (under the assumption I'm not against abortion), both parents should have to agree before an abortion proceeds.

(I believe in them for rape and medical/lifesaving stuff, but I don't know how to word it in there)

[The New California Republic]

Well, put every pest control, lawn care, and animal shelter worker on death row, then, because they're all mass-murderers. Farmers, too. And let's not forget florists, those demons who cull life just because it looks pretty and don't even have the decency to give it a quick death!

Human life is different to plant or other common beasts since we actually have souls.

I was wondering how long it'd be before religion was brought into this; unless you are using "soul" as a totally outdated synonym for sentience and sapience?

[New haven america]

No it's not, were literally talking about what could happen after it's born.

Follow along or don't get involved.

I was following

Obviously not.

[Napkiraly]

I don't think the fetus wants to put up with death by that metric.

The fetus wants nothing, as it has an underdeveloped brain that doesn't really want anything.

Survival is the primary trait of almost every single organism, regardless of how developed it is and whether or not it has sentience, consciousness, etc.

[New haven america]

Fetus is incapable of giving or having a say in the matter.

Doesn't mean it wants to die.

Doesn't mean it wants to live either.

That choice is up to it's parents.

[The South Falls]

Fetus is incapable of giving or having a say in the matter.

Doesn't mean it wants to die.

It literally doesn't want anything. It's a non-participant in that discussion.

[Genivaria]

Except for the woman who has to carry it against her will.

Unless she was raped she choose to take the risk.

I was waiting on someone to get to the 'the slut should've kept her legs shut' argument.

[Luminesa]

These all depend on the woman’s individual body and health, some women have these and some women don’t.

I restate my claim: They don't want to have to deal with those health issues, they don't have to.

Also, all women go through pregnancy issues to some extent.

They do, but not every one of those on the list. And no, there are medicines to help with health issues. With all of the successes of modern medicine in dealing with health issues, many don’t have to deal with them.

[Napkiraly]

Apparently tossing straw everywhere is your only argument.

That's what happens when your arguments are crap. Straw everywhere.

When the pot calls the kettle black.

[Hrythingia]

Human life is different to plant or other common beasts since we actually have souls.

The qualifier you used was "life". Insects and plants are life. Get the fuck back here with those goalposts, because a foetus is about as sapient as any plant we're aware of, and less sapient than any pests commonly killed in droves for the crime of being an annoyance.

No, you are being pedantic. It was quite clear that it was in reference to human life. As a proud hunter and consumer of.. well food, the necessary destruction of the Earth's flora and fauna is justified for our survival.

[The South Falls]

The fetus wants nothing, as it has an underdeveloped brain that doesn't really want anything.

Survival is the primary trait of almost every single organism, regardless of how developed it is and whether or not it has sentience, consciousness, etc.

The fetus isn't doing much to advance that, because it can't. Unlike literally every other organism.

[Luminesa]

It’s contradictory to say that one wants to avoid unwanted pregnancies while condemning the parent who wants the baby. If it’s an unwanted pregnancy that is now wanted, what’s the problem?

There isn't a problem in that scenario.

The issue is that even if a parent wants the child, the mother can say no and kill it anyway. Unless it's rape, (under the assumption I'm not against abortion), both parents should have to agree before an abortion proceeds.

(I believe in them for rape and medical/lifesaving stuff, but I don't know how to word it in there)

I don’t think there’s a specific term for that stance.

[New haven america]

I restate my claim: They don't want to have to deal with those health issues, they don't have to.

Also, all women go through pregnancy issues to some extent.

They do, but not every one of those on the list. And no, there are medicines to help with health issues. With all of the successes of modern medicine in dealing with health issues, many don’t have to deal with them.

That's nice, not entirely true by any extent, but nice.

[Napkiraly]

Doesn't mean it wants to die.

Doesn't mean it wants to live either.

The will to live is found among all organisms. It is pretty much the default setting. Unless you can determine whether or not it has suicidal tendencies and last I checked we tried to cut down on the number of people killing themselves.

That choice is up to it's parents.

It is not.