[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Datlofff]

I'd be all for it considering I'm actually a ward of the state

I've always thought that "ward of the state" makes it sound like there is magic involved.

Speaking of my court date got pushed back for the second time. First it was wednesday, then it was today, now its tomorrow.

[West Armyermary]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

I have to agree, but not whenever the mother wants and they shouldn’t be near our schools, and the doctors should be trained well

[Godular]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

I have to agree, but not whenever the mother wants and they shouldn’t be near our schools, and the doctors should be trained well

Who says abortion doctors are not trained well?

[Katganistan]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/risk



So: a possibility of danger/harm/something unpleasant happening.


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... onsibility


So two of the definitions specifically state that responsibility is having a duty to deal with something and the authority to act independently.

I think that having a duty to deal with what happens to your body and to deal with it in the manner you see fit (as long as it is legal) absolutely IS responsibility, not this "I DON'T LIKE IT ABORTION IS IRRESPONSIBLE AND THE EASY WAY OUT."

But the appeal to emotion people will never accept this and will continue to misuse the word in an attempt vilify the decisions of women not to have children when they are not ready, don't want them, when they pose a medical, economic, or social risk to them.

Going back up to the definition of risk and the idea of insurance: there are three things you can do to insure you will not have an unwanted pregnancy.

You can be abstinent. This is something people may choose, but of course is not fool-proof as there are aberrant people who will use force, coercion, or drugs to initiate sex with the unwilling.

You can utilize birth control. Condoms, birth control pills, shots, IUDs, diaphragms, spermicidal products, etc. These help, but nothing is 100% effective.

You can, if the first two methods fail, use your third form of insurance: abortion.

Adoption does not cure unwanted pregnancy. Abortion does.
Adoption only aids in finding a new placement for a child, but with over 400,000 kids in the system at any time in the US, with only a quarter who get adopted, and 30,000+ who live in the system until they are dumped out of it at the age of majority, and in which some children are sexually, physically and emotionally abused -- it's not a viable solution.

Fix the orphanages/group homes then. I'd be all for it considering I'm actually a ward of the state

You have not been for long, and honestly, I pray that you are in a safe, healthy environment free of that system very soon.

[Katganistan]

I'd be all for it considering I'm actually a ward of the state

I've always thought that "ward of the state" makes it sound like there is magic involved.

Or that you get a cool superhero outfit and become a sidekick.

[Katganistan]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

Or just not wanting them or being emotionally and financially prepared for them.... or yeah. Just not waning them.

[Geneviev]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

[The New California Republic]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

I'd say that being forced to carry the rapist's child to term poses a serious risk of harm to the woman. Psychologically.

[The Free Joy State]

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

I'd say that being forced to carry the rapist's child to term poses a serious risk of harm to the woman. Psychologically.

Putting aside the fact that NCR is correct that being pregnant as a result of rape poses a serious risk to psychological welfare, let's look at the physiological risk of serious harm to the woman: maternity is still the leading cause of death and disability among women of reproductive age in developing countries and causes the death of 700 women in the USA due to pregnancy or delivery complications.

Isn't that a fairly significant risk of harm?

EDIT: Or were you referring to certainty of harm? Because, in the case of abortions for medical emergencies, waiting until the foetus has no heartbeat and septicaemia sets in has very bad precedent.

[Godular]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

There is always a serious risk of harm to the mother and child in a pregnancy. If the fetus even has a different blood type than the mother, risk factors skyrocket. Do please stop acting as if pregnancy is some utterly flawless and heavily-failsafed biological process, because no it fucking isn’t.

Izzat another of your parental mouthpiece comments or something?

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

There's is only a few main reasons for abortion. Either having the fetus could seriously harm the mother that is caring the child or if the fetus was formed from rape. Those are the two main moral reasons for abortion.

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

Perhaps consider the emotional harm to the mother of forcing her to carry her pregnancy (which was already caused by a traumatic experience) to term?

[The Free Joy State]

The only moral reason for abortion is if there's a serious risk of harm to the mother and the child. Rape isn't one of those situations.

Perhaps consider the emotional harm to the mother of forcing her to carry her pregnancy (which was already caused by a traumatic experience) to term?

Any pro-life people who want to "think of the foetus", should actually go ahead and consider the foetus.

Pregnancy that results from rape is not only hugely traumatic for the rape victim (who may attempt or complete suicide), it's also harmful for the foetus, too (should it be born) -- from the link:

As psychologist Andrew Solomon writes in his book, Far From the Tree, children conceived of rape are more likely to suffer from severe psychological disorders, the most common of which are Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), depression, and anxiety.

They face many challenges both before and after birth. Research shows that maternal stress severely affects embryological development. Many women who are raped opt to take antidepressants to help them cope, which can harm the fetus.

The links says there are 32,000 rapes that result in pregnancy in the USA every year. That's 32,000 women's lives (and their offspring -- should they be born) potentially ruined by trauma, if women are forced to go carry the pregnancy to term.

People who say rape is no reason to abort should think on that.

Stressed women, pressured into keeping the foetuses that remind them of (probably) the worst trauma they could have endured, with high stress levels impacting the womb -- clinging on by a thread with antidepressants that may harm the foetus -- are not producing babies that live storybook lives.

So, pro-lifers who want to force women to carry foetuses that result from rape to term not only risk harming the woman further psychologically (perhaps irreversibly), they could well do the same to the foetus they claim to want to protect.

Hardly a job well done.

EDIT: Relevant link. [Warning, tough read] The plight of girls in Paraguay, where rape is not grounds for abortion.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Perhaps consider the emotional harm to the mother of forcing her to carry her pregnancy (which was already caused by a traumatic experience) to term?

Any pro-life people who want to "think of the foetus", should actually go ahead and consider the foetus.

Pregnancy that results from rape is not only hugely traumatic for the rape victim (who may attempt or complete suicide), it's also harmful for the foetus, too (should it be born) -- from the link:

As psychologist Andrew Solomon writes in his book, Far From the Tree, children conceived of rape are more likely to suffer from severe psychological disorders, the most common of which are Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), depression, and anxiety.

They face many challenges both before and after birth. Research shows that maternal stress severely affects embryological development. Many women who are raped opt to take antidepressants to help them cope, which can harm the fetus.

The links says there are 32,000 rapes that result in pregnancy in the USA every year. That's 32,000 women's lives (and their offspring -- should they be born) potentially ruined by trauma, if women are forced to go carry the pregnancy to term.

People who say rape is no reason to abort should think on that.

Stressed women, pressured into keeping the foetuses that remind them of (probably) the worst trauma they could have endured, with high cortisol levels that impact the womb -- clinging on by a thread with antidepressants that may harm the foetus -- are not producing babies that live storybook lives.

So, pro-lifers who want to force women to make women carry foetuses that result from rape to term not only risk harming the woman further psychologically (perhaps irreversibly), they could well do the same to the foetus they claim to want to protect.

Hardly a job well done.

EDIT: Relevant link. [Warning, tough read] The plight of girls in Paraguay, where rape is not grounds for abortion.

I fully agree with you. Sadly, though, pro-lifers often think of the quality of life for the fetus as a binary "alive/dead" question, rather than the actual pleasure/suffering of their future life.

[The Free Joy State]

Any pro-life people who want to "think of the foetus", should actually go ahead and consider the foetus.

Pregnancy that results from rape is not only hugely traumatic for the rape victim (who may attempt or complete suicide), it's also harmful for the foetus, too (should it be born) -- from the link:

As psychologist Andrew Solomon writes in his book, Far From the Tree, children conceived of rape are more likely to suffer from severe psychological disorders, the most common of which are Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), depression, and anxiety.

They face many challenges both before and after birth. Research shows that maternal stress severely affects embryological development. Many women who are raped opt to take antidepressants to help them cope, which can harm the fetus.

The links says there are 32,000 rapes that result in pregnancy in the USA every year. That's 32,000 women's lives (and their offspring -- should they be born) potentially ruined by trauma, if women are forced to go carry the pregnancy to term.

People who say rape is no reason to abort should think on that.

Stressed women, pressured into keeping the foetuses that remind them of (probably) the worst trauma they could have endured, with high cortisol levels that impact the womb -- clinging on by a thread with antidepressants that may harm the foetus -- are not producing babies that live storybook lives.

So, pro-lifers who want to force women to make women carry foetuses that result from rape to term not only risk harming the woman further psychologically (perhaps irreversibly), they could well do the same to the foetus they claim to want to protect.

Hardly a job well done.

EDIT: Relevant link. [Warning, tough read] The plight of girls in Paraguay, where rape is not grounds for abortion.

I fully agree with you. Sadly, though, pro-lifers often think of the quality of life for the fetus as a binary "alive/dead" question, rather than the actual pleasure/suffering of their future life.

I know, which is a shame.

I like to think that, if some pro-lifers measured life in terms of suffering, rather than existence, they'd -- if not be pro-choice -- be less hardline in their views.

I don't like abortion. I feel squicky about it and have never pretended otherwise (I know many pro-choicers feel the same; despite there being some pro-lifers who are trying -- despite all evidence to the contrary -- to pretend that pro-choicers love abortions and that we gleefully make witches' brews with the souls of aborted foetuses).

But, despite my discomfort, I value the rights of women not to suffer (emotionally, as well as physically) and the rights of foetuses not to be born to live severely dimished lives (to be seriously sick, or to have parents who can't love them or care for them). So I swallow my discomfort, because I feel that women shouldn't experience trauma and be denied choice because I -- or anyone else -- find abortion squicky.

Of course, for me, more welfare, less stigmatisation about claiming and better education and healthcare is the dream to reduce the number.

But that wouldn't prevent situations like the one we're discussing, where women have been raped and want/need to abort.

[Katganistan]

I still believe that anyone who thinks that foster-care/adoption is the answer MUST adopt a child and relieve the strain on that system.

And by adopt a child I mean older children too. Children with special needs. Children whose skin tone doesn't necessarily match yours. Children who ended up there because they came out to their parents and were kicked out of the house. Not just cute little infants, but scabby-kneed kids, eating-machine teens, and defiant kids of all ages.

And no, going to adopt from other countries doesn't count. Adopt the children here, in this country, to whom you would add more wards of the state and therefore fewer resources.

[Page]

I still believe that anyone who thinks that foster-care/adoption is the answer MUST adopt a child and relieve the strain on that system.

And by adopt a child I mean older children too. Children with special needs. Children whose skin tone doesn't necessarily match yours. Children who ended up there because they came out to their parents and were kicked out of the house. Not just cute little infants, but scabby-kneed kids, eating-machine teens, and defiant kids of all ages.

And no, going to adopt from other countries doesn't count. Adopt the children here, in this country, to whom you would add more wards of the state and therefore fewer resources.

Also, adopt a 5 year old, an 8 year old, even a 12 year old who has been in the foster care system for their entire life. Few people do, because they want a blank slate that they can shape in their own image.

[Greater Cesnica]

Can I say second trimester?

[Katganistan]

Can I say second trimester?

You can. It would be helpful if you gave your reasoning.

[The Free Joy State]

I still believe that anyone who thinks that foster-care/adoption is the answer MUST adopt a child and relieve the strain on that system.

And by adopt a child I mean older children too. Children with special needs. Children whose skin tone doesn't necessarily match yours. Children who ended up there because they came out to their parents and were kicked out of the house. Not just cute little infants, but scabby-kneed kids, eating-machine teens, and defiant kids of all ages.

And no, going to adopt from other countries doesn't count. Adopt the children here, in this country, to whom you would add more wards of the state and therefore fewer resources.

^^ This.

So many people who say "adoption is the answer" say they may do it, they haven't ruled it out, they're thinking of it.

If pro-lifers believe adoption is the answer, they should stop thinking about it and actually go and adopt: older children, children with SEN, children who really need them. Then their opinion will be more than empty rhetoric.

EDIT: And, people who believe adoption is the answer might want to insist on seriously increasing the amount of funding the foster-system receives, to support this influx of kids they want to see. That'll mean a huge tax increase (foster-care alone currently costs £1.5 billion in the UK; and that's with legal abortion preventing a flood of children whose parents can't raise them), but I'm sure they're cool with that...

[Neutraligon]

Can I say second trimester?

No you can't. It does not matter that you already did, it is physically impossible for you to do so.

[The South Falls]

I still believe that anyone who thinks that foster-care/adoption is the answer MUST adopt a child and relieve the strain on that system.

And by adopt a child I mean older children too. Children with special needs. Children whose skin tone doesn't necessarily match yours. Children who ended up there because they came out to their parents and were kicked out of the house. Not just cute little infants, but scabby-kneed kids, eating-machine teens, and defiant kids of all ages.

And no, going to adopt from other countries doesn't count. Adopt the children here, in this country, to whom you would add more wards of the state and therefore fewer resources.

Also, adopt a 5 year old, an 8 year old, even a 12 year old who has been in the foster care system for their entire life. Few people do, because they want a blank slate that they can shape in their own image.

Then those people end up putting those kids in their hatred.

[Katganistan]

Also, adopt a 5 year old, an 8 year old, even a 12 year old who has been in the foster care system for their entire life. Few people do, because they want a blank slate that they can shape in their own image.

Then those people end up putting those kids in their hatred.

Well, it's not like we can stack them in a warehouse like goods waiting to be sold from Amazon, can we?

So either adopt or.... allow there not to be more children needlessly brought into the world only to be immediately rejected and shoved into the foster system.

[The South Falls]

Then those people end up putting those kids in their hatred.

Well, it's not like we can stack them in a warehouse like goods waiting to be sold from Amazon, can we?

So either adopt or.... allow there not to be more children needlessly brought into the world only to be immediately rejected and shoved into the foster system.

Yea, let's avoid stacking babies.

[Katganistan]

Well, it's not like we can stack them in a warehouse like goods waiting to be sold from Amazon, can we?

So either adopt or.... allow there not to be more children needlessly brought into the world only to be immediately rejected and shoved into the foster system.

Yea, let's avoid stacking babies.

I mean they roll around so easily.... big wobbly heads also make them difficult to store on a shelf....

[The Free Joy State]

Yea, let's avoid stacking babies.

I mean they roll around so easily.... big wobbly heads also make them difficult to store on a shelf....

And, as they get older, they have a tendency to start crawling... they want to walk. Getting them to stay on the shelf could be tricky...

Not to mention that it'd also take some very sturdy shelves to store all the older children and teenagers that are still waiting for families who never arrive...