LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Painisia]

LWDT V: Fullfilling The Proletariat Revolution with The Aliens

[Reikoku]

You are now changing the subject to, um, something. I would call it evading the point, but you would know that better than I would. You argued that the term extremist has connotations of violence. I disagreed and asked that you look it up in any dictionary. I did not specify which dictionary. Dictionaries range from the general to the specific. (For instance, I have several sociological dictionaries.)

I can tell you, having researched the subject pretty extensively, that the word extremist has no connotations of violence. That is not to say that some extremists might not be violent. However, one can also be a nonviolent extremist (like me).



He is not just any social democrat. He is the person who made it popular for a lot of other American social democrats to call themselves democratic socialists.

People have called me an extremist myself, despite being a near-jainist tier pacifist.

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Which is something SJWs are notorious for doing.

From my observations, the people who seem to cause the greatest division here are those who attack SJWs. I have only rarely seen SJWs here cause division.

[Ostroeuropa]

People have called me an extremist myself, despite being a near-jainist tier pacifist.

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

There's a school of thought in Buddhism and probably Jainism that at some point non-violence becomes violence against the self through tolerating a hostile environment. (Anecdotally this came about after monks got fed up of their temple being absolutely full of pests, rats, cockroaches, etc.) This is used to justify things like getting rid of pests and so on, while both Buddhists and Jains have extremists who don't buy into that reasoning, i'd wager it's a common form of rationalization for others, and historically could have been used to rationalize violence against others.

"Oh if we don't go to war these warmongering neighbors will with us."

It seems to me like an insincere rationalization rather than admit their religion isn't something they fully believe in, much like the old;

"Friend, I mean you no harm but I am about to fire my shotgun in your general direction so you had best leave" of Quaker fame.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

All religions have had historical issues of one form or another. The focus should be on the Jains of today. For instance, I despise what the Roman Catholic Church did during the Inquisition, but Pope Francis is among the humans I respect most.

[The South Falls]

New title for LWDT VI: The Sixth Party Congress.

[Reikoku]

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

All religions have had historical issues of one form or another. The focus should be on the Jains of today. For instance, I despise what the Roman Catholic Church did during the Inquisition, but Pope Francis is among the humans I respect most.

Far from being a historical accident, Jainism was very much in doctrine a religion of the warrior caste. All of the mythical enlightened founders in Jainism were born as members of the kshatriya, and several times, had been chakravartin (world conquerors). This preference for the military goes so far that Mahavira directly modeled his monastic community on the ranks of the army, and there is a popular myth that Mahavira was conceived in the womb of a brahmin, but Sakra, king of the gods, placed him into a kshatriya womb because a brahmin's was unworthy of a Tirthankara. It was considered necessary, if not righteous, for a king to work to expand his kingdom for the good of his people.

This seems contradictory with the pacifism of Jain ascetics, but ahimsa is not an absolute commandment for lay followers.

In modern times, Jains are seen in the business class, which socialists are sure to hate.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

In modern times, Jains are seen in the business class, which socialists are sure to hate.

I am not an apologist for Jainism. However, I have known Jains personally and was impressed with how seriously they take the issue of ahimsa.

[Salus Maior]

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

All religions have had historical issues of one form or another. The focus should be on the Jains of today. For instance, I despise what the Roman Catholic Church did during the Inquisition, but Pope Francis is among the humans I respect most.

The Spanish Inquisition was actually far better than the secular authorities at the time. The Inquisition actually informed suspects of the investigation 30 days in advance so that they would be able to build a defense for themselves, and didn't actually execute many people. Whereas secular authorities weren't much different from lynch mobs.

[Jelmatt]

Would regular sexbots stop regular rape? If not, then why would child sexbots stop child rape?

No evidence on the former, some on the latter. Because by their nature people with pedophilic tendencies have no outlets other than ones that victimize children. It's worth noting that some turn themselves in and seek assistance. Providing a victimless alternative for them may increase the number willing to do that. People who want sex with adult men and women have alternatives to sexually exploiting them, including porn, and sex robots there wouldn't have as big an impact.

There was a successful push by the UK government in curbing child abuse by making adverts to explicitly appeal to people tempted to be pedophiles to turn themselves in for help and assistance without criminal consequence. The purely punitive approach doesn't appear to be maximally effective, especially considering these tendencies are often pathologies, and especially for large scale testimony and data on the pedophile networks and rings which those kind of initiatives provide by allowing some to turncoat.

They can be pathologies, but only because they involve significant risk of harm others and can cause distress to the patient. Pedophilia, aside from harming others and victimizing their rights, is not extremely different from any other sexual orientation in development and such, and in fact isn't diagnosed as a disorder unless it causes distress, impairment, or harm to others (so a pedophile who's comfortable being a pedophile while never acting on their impulses is not considered to be disordered). Small correction.

I saw the article you send to Salus, anyway, and I'd like to point out that the article doesn't advocate either way, and in fact the experts they quoted ranged from skeptical to ambivalent:

So far, there is no research to indicate whether or not Takagi’s dolls would be successful, and Peter Fagan from the John Hopkins School of Medicine is skeptical that there ever will be. Citing cognitive-behavioral theory, the paraphilia researcher believes that contact with Trottla’s products would likely have a “reinforcing effect” on pedophilic ideation and “in many instances, cause it to be acted upon with greater urgency.” The research Fagan cites to support that conclusion is based on offenders, so it is unclear whether the effects would be different for non-offenders.

Michael Seto from the University of Toronto speculated on the possible existence of two distinct populations of pedophiles. Drawing an analogy to methadone treatment for opioid addicts, the psychiatrist hypothesized that “for some pedophiles, access to artificial child pornography or to child sex dolls could be a safer outlet for their sexual urges, reducing the likelihood that they would seek out child pornography or sex with real children. For others, having these substitutes might only aggravate their sense of frustration.”

The article also links to a study showing that recidivism among child molesters is positively related with their access and use of child pornography--which I understand you are against for reasons of how it's produced, but in terms of how it functions it's an outlet as much as child sex dolls are. Of course, a positive correlation could imply many things--like that the ones most likely to watch child porn are the ones with the strongest impulses, and are therefore the ones who happen to be most likely recidivists--but it certainly doesn't provide evidence that "outlets" do anything to reduce pedophilic crime.

I mean, if the problem is pedophiles maybe the solution shouldn't be to enable them by giving them little kiddy robots to fiddle around.

How is it enabling them? You're aware they don't actually choose to be that way, right? They choose to engage in it, but it's usually the result of pathology that makes them that way in the first place. (Often but not always having been victimized in youth themselves.)

In any case, the bots would probably curb the demand for child pornography, which in itself has impacts.

I don't know if there's much evidence to support the "victimization in youth" explanation. Most of our evidence seems to point to a much more complex path for the development of pedophilia, developing in a similar way to other sexual orientations such as homosexuality and heterosexuality, as a mix of biology and early childhood experiences (like peer groups as children).

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The Spanish Inquisition was actually far better than the secular authorities at the time. The Inquisition actually informed suspects of the investigation 30 days in advance so that they would be able to build a defense for themselves, and didn't actually execute many people. Whereas secular authorities weren't much different from lynch mobs.

Is it better to die from a firing squad or from hanging? I don't know. The result is the same.

[Puldania]

People have called me an extremist myself, despite being a near-jainist tier pacifist.

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

That's a hell of an Oxymoron.

[Puldania]

LWDT VI: Everything you own in a Box to the Left

This is my millionth try

[West Leas Oros]

Which is something SJWs are notorious for doing.

From my observations, the people who seem to cause the greatest division here are those who attack SJWs. I have only rarely seen SJWs here cause division.

Then we clearly have had much different observations. I have to remember that it’s different depending on where you are and who you ask.

[Salus Maior]

The Spanish Inquisition was actually far better than the secular authorities at the time. The Inquisition actually informed suspects of the investigation 30 days in advance so that they would be able to build a defense for themselves, and didn't actually execute many people. Whereas secular authorities weren't much different from lynch mobs.

Is it better to die from a firing squad or from hanging? I don't know. The result is the same.

Better to die at least being given a chance through legal process than by an angry mob, yeah.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Then we clearly have had much different observations. I have to remember that it’s different depending on where you are and who you ask.

We do have very different observations. I see so-called SJWs as potential candidates to become libertarian communists, and I would never attack them.

I also do not believe it is possible to be a libertarian communist without being an SJW. To me, being a anti-SJW libertarian communist is a contradiction in terms.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Better to die at least being given a chance through legal process than by an angry mob, yeah.

If you know anything about the Inquisition, then you know that the so-called legal process was a joke. If they wanted you dead, they would kill you.

[Puldania]

Then we clearly have had much different observations. I have to remember that it’s different depending on where you are and who you ask.

We do have very different observations. I see so-called SJWs as potential candidates to become libertarian communists, and I would never attack them.

I also do not believe it is possible to be a libertarian communist without being an SJW. To me, being a anti-SJW libertarian communist is a contradiction in terms.

I am typically lumped in with "libertarian communists"

Liberals have authoritarian tendencies inherently incompatible with anything libertarian.

[The South Falls]

Better to die at least being given a chance through legal process than by an angry mob, yeah.

If you know anything about the Inquisition, then you know that the so-called legal process was a joke. If they wanted you dead, they would kill you.

Or drive you out of the nation, but the point is the same.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I am typically lumped in with "libertarian communists"

Liberals have authoritarian tendencies inherently incompatible with anything libertarian.

Being a libertarian communist is not the same as being a libertarian in the common American sense (as with Ron Paul). A libertarian communist, to my understanding, opposes authoritarianism in all its forms (capitalism and its many contradictions: racism, classism, sexism, ageism, etc.). For instance, a libertarian communist would never, to my understanding, ever think of attacking feminists or so-called social justice warriors. Even considering those attacks disgusts me. In a sense, libertarian communism takes American libertarianism and turns it upside down on its head. Instead of capitalism and extreme individualism as the solution to our problems, communism and unity become the only answer. Now, if you ask another libertarian communist or Marxist, you might get a very different response.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Or drive you out of the nation, but the point is the same.

If you made it that far.

[Reikoku]

Jainism historically was supported by militaristic Southern Indian kings. Make of that what you will.

That's a hell of an Oxymoron.

Only if you have a one dimensional view on what Jainism actually is.

[Proctopeo]

That's a hell of an Oxymoron.

Only if you have a one dimensional view on what Jainism actually is.

reminder that pacifism with qualifiers is still pacifism

[Pasong Tirad]

I mean, if the problem is pedophiles maybe the solution shouldn't be to enable them by giving them little kiddy robots to fiddle around.

How is it enabling them? You're aware they don't actually choose to be that way, right? They choose to engage in it, but it's usually the result of pathology that makes them that way in the first place. (Often but not always having been victimized in youth themselves.)

In any case, the bots would probably curb the demand for child pornography, which in itself has impacts.

"Hey you're alcoholic? Don't worry, try this light beer instead of that whiskey."

In any case, this never felt like a left-wing discussion - unless you're saying that the left are the ones who don't want to enable pedophiles by giving them sex robots that look like kids.

[Reikoku]

Always good to be neutral.

Yeah, like I'm not overly religious by any means, but there's good to be found in religious texts. Bad, too, sure, but that doesn't detract from the good.

As long as it doesn't end up in abominations such as “philosophical Taoism” and “Agnostic Buddhism.”