LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Cappuccina]

His sig also has a typo.......

Interesting to see such a brazen proclamation of "homophobia". It's almost endearing.

Well I figure it's more fun to be an actual witch. :^)

I see you've added to your sig.

Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.

[The South Falls]

If you're talking about tribunes, I can get behind that. If you're talking about Caesar, I can't.

I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.

Lemme understand this. You're saying that the *still-elected* second class would only be able to approve or veto? What is the difference in first-and-second? Forgive my ignorance, I need to know.

[Ostroeuropa]

I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.

Lemme understand this. You're saying that the *still-elected* second class would only be able to approve or veto? What is the difference in first-and-second? Forgive my ignorance, I need to know.

Sortition is how juries are decided. The second house would be composed of ordinary citizens of appropriate age drawn up to approve or reject each bill passed by the first house, if necessary in a decentralized fashion and voting from home, serving for one bill before being relieved of duty. The first house would be elected officials given a mandate due to majority to decide a general direction of the country and to draft, debate, and submit new laws to the second house, who would then either approve or reject them.

It's a means of ensuring a rough representation of the populace without that representation being subject to influences on the political class, leaving room for expanding out to direct democracy as a second house over time. The purpose of a second house is supposed to be a check on power, and right now the power of the political class and their backers is what needs checking.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

For further reading on the concept.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Well I figure it's more fun to be an actual witch. :^)

I see you've added to your sig.

Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.

First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I did not speak out because I was not an easily triggered liberal
When they came for my gravy there was no-one to speak out for me
Because they'd disposed of all the juice

I think that's how it goes.

[Jelmatt]

Listing features of authoritarianism doesn't prove that social progressives exhibit them.

Well, looking at feminism, it appears that the movement is definitively anti-pluralism and seeks to claim that you're either a feminist or anti-equality, and anti-equality is not legitimate. This also impacts the minimal social mobilization part (A small minority of the population locking down institutional control and denying others access while also suppressing and breaking up groups that aren't part of the movement), and much of the legitimacy is based in emotion rather than facts (Indeed, the core claim of the movement that women are oppressed and disadvantaged relative to men in the modern day are based on subjective emotional claims).

Social progressives on issues of race very often fulfill these criteria too so far as I can see.
Can you show how it's pluralist and so on?

The core goal of much of modern social progressivism is to create a "politics of difference" where social differences are encouraged and fostered. There's a reason one of the most major modern feminist works is called Justice and the Politics of Difference. Simply attacking and criticizing opponents, even if those criticisms are stupid (which, yes, progressives often make really shitty criticisms of non-progressives) does not anti-pluralism make. I'm not sure you really get what "social mobilization" means. No one (well I'm sure not no one, but the calls aren't frequent) is arguing to ban conservatives, anti-feminists, or racists from running from office, simply saying that they shouldn't get them into office--and often their main means of preventing them from getting into office is social mobilization in the form of electoral politics and political protests. Having emotionally-charged opinions isn't the same as "legitimacy based in emotions." If you are familiar with Weber's three forms of legitimating authority, what your thing clearly refers to is a charismatic form of authority, while social progressives disdain charismatic politicians (like Trump and other "celebrity politicians") and favor rational-legal (which doesn't mean "fact based," it means impersonal forms of power invested in positions rather than people, and passed down by a set of consciously agreed-upon rules rather than traditional systems) forms of authority. All politics are emotionally charged, by the way, and it's impossible to have a "rational" political opinion. There is no such thing as a political opinion which is based in "reason" rather than "emotion." It just doesn't exist, and it's literally impossible for such a thing to exist. Not just "really hard," impossible. You cannot have a political opinion without emotional assumptions.

If you're talking about tribunes, I can get behind that. If you're talking about Caesar, I can't.

I think the second chamber should be sortition based, it would not be able to propose legislation, merely approve or veto it when it is proposed by the first chamber. It serves as a check on the political class.

I'm actually in agreement with this, and have been for a long time.

[Torrocca]

(Image)

Hmm... "Fascism isn't left wing tho."
(Also, i'm assuming "Pro-Islam" is more a case of being against intervention in the middle east, and perhaps dogwhistling anti-israel stances.)

Pretty funny that the remnants of the fascist movement in the UK are further left than the status quo on foreign policy, and more radically left on economics than Labour.

National-Syndicalism isn't leftist :^)

[Ostroeuropa]

(Image)

Hmm... "Fascism isn't left wing tho."
(Also, i'm assuming "Pro-Islam" is more a case of being against intervention in the middle east, and perhaps dogwhistling anti-israel stances.)

Pretty funny that the remnants of the fascist movement in the UK are further left than the status quo on foreign policy, and more radically left on economics than Labour.

National-Syndicalism isn't leftist :^)

They can't be integral nationalists while being pro-EU.

[Torrocca]

National-Syndicalism isn't leftist :^)

They can't be integral nationalists while being pro-EU.

I doubt they're actual syndicalists, too, considering that little spin.

Probably just trying to pretend they're something they're not (Nazis pretending to be Socialist, anyone?) to win over naive leftists.

[Cappuccina]

I see you've added to your sig.

Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.

First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I did not speak out because I was not an easily triggered liberal
When they came for my gravy there was no-one to speak out for me
Because they'd disposed of all the juice

I think that's how it goes.

Gravy is love, gravy is life.......

[Ostroeuropa]

They can't be integral nationalists while being pro-EU.

I doubt they're actual syndicalists, too, considering that little spin.

Probably just trying to pretend they're something they're not (Nazis pretending to be Socialist, anyone?) to win over naive leftists.

What little spin?

As for pretending, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to believe given that they're explicitly Mosleyite if you know much about him and his policies and history.

The nazi movement was socialist in nature, but once in power a number of the socialist agendas (though not all of them) were abandoned by the politician nazis to attain the cooperation of the establishment with genocide. It's like arguing progressivism is neoliberal capitalism because Democrats keep selling out.

[Torrocca]

I doubt they're actual syndicalists, too, considering that little spin.

Probably just trying to pretend they're something they're not (Nazis pretending to be Socialist, anyone?) to win over naive leftists.

What little spin?

The pro-EU one.

As for pretending, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to believe given that they're explicitly Mosleyite if you know much about him and his policies and history.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be lying about being syndicalist or what-have-you.

The nazi movement was socialist in nature, but once in power a number of the socialist agendas (though not all of them) were abandoned by the politician nazis to attain the cooperation of the establishment with genocide. It's like arguing progressivism is neoliberal capitalism because Democrats keep selling out.

The Nazi movement wasn't that Socialist and was pretty much only Socialist in name once Strasser & Co. got Long Knives'd.

It's kinda funny, actually; these movements popping up with Nationalism and an added leftist word (Syndicalism, Socialism), that turn out to completely ignore those leftist-halves of what they say they've got going on to go full Nationalist. It'd almost be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic in regards to what happened/happens.

[Ostroeuropa]

What little spin?

The pro-EU one.

As for pretending, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to believe given that they're explicitly Mosleyite if you know much about him and his policies and history.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be lying about being syndicalist or what-have-you.

The nazi movement was socialist in nature, but once in power a number of the socialist agendas (though not all of them) were abandoned by the politician nazis to attain the cooperation of the establishment with genocide. It's like arguing progressivism is neoliberal capitalism because Democrats keep selling out.

The Nazi movement wasn't that Socialist and was pretty much only Socialist in name once Strasser & Co. got Long Knives'd.

It's kinda funny, actually; these movements popping up with Nationalism and an added leftist word (Syndicalism, Socialism), that turn out to completely ignore those leftist-halves of what they say they've got going on to go full Nationalist. It'd almost be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic in regards to what happened/happens.

1. You think... Mosleyites... are engaging in "Spin" by claiming to be pro-Eu...

You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Well, at the risk of wasting my time again, here, let me try for the final time to educate you;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_a_Nation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrBbN0vvGLA

The policy was presented to the wider electorate in October 1948 when Mosley called for elections to a European Assembly as the first step towards his vision.

2. Why would they lie about it? It's not exactly a well known movement, and they aren't an active political group, they don't lobby and they don't push for things. It's just a club for like minded persons.

3. Right, long knives is the moment that changed the government, but the movement was pretty much always socialist.

[Torrocca]

The pro-EU one.



Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be lying about being syndicalist or what-have-you.



The Nazi movement wasn't that Socialist and was pretty much only Socialist in name once Strasser & Co. got Long Knives'd.

It's kinda funny, actually; these movements popping up with Nationalism and an added leftist word (Syndicalism, Socialism), that turn out to completely ignore those leftist-halves of what they say they've got going on to go full Nationalist. It'd almost be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic in regards to what happened/happens.

1. You think... Mosleyites... are engaging in "Spin" by claiming to be pro-Eu...

You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Well, at the risk of wasting my time again, here, let me try for the final time to educate you;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrBbN0vvGLA

A

No, what I'm saying is that the pro-EU thing makes them seem dishonest about the supposed leftism. I know Mosleyites and the like wanted a European superstate of some kind.

2. Why would they lie about it? It's not exactly a well known movement, and they aren't an active political group, they don't lobby and they don't push for things. It's just a club for like minded persons.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, they could be wanting to draw in leftists who don't know what Oswald Mosley was all about and the like.

3. Right, long knives is the moment that changed the government, but the movement was pretty much always socialist.

Until Long Knives, when it explicitly became... not socialist.

[Ostroeuropa]

1. You think... Mosleyites... are engaging in "Spin" by claiming to be pro-Eu...

You don't actually know what you're talking about, do you? Well, at the risk of wasting my time again, here, let me try for the final time to educate you;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrBbN0vvGLA

A

No, what I'm saying is that the pro-EU thing makes them seem dishonest about the supposed leftism. I know Mosleyites and the like wanted a European superstate of some kind.

2. Why would they lie about it? It's not exactly a well known movement, and they aren't an active political group, they don't lobby and they don't push for things. It's just a club for like minded persons.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, they could be wanting to draw in leftists who don't know what Oswald Mosley was all about and the like.

3. Right, long knives is the moment that changed the government, but the movement was pretty much always socialist.

Until Long Knives, when it explicitly became... not socialist.

1. Why does being pro-EU make their leftism seem dishonest?
2. So basically your baseless assertions and no actual evidence. "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are." Mosley was also left wing, so Idk what you're talking about here.

Oswald Mosley intensifies.

Conservative -> Labour -> Independent Labour (even further left) -> New Party (Founded because Labour narrowly rejected his economy reforms, which were ahead of their time in endorsement for government intervention in times of economic crisis, contained himself and 6 other Labour MPs) -> British union of Fascists.

It's a pretty clear trajectory of his radicalization. His fascist policies and rhetoric were merely an escalation of his previous stances in Labour and so on. The New Party was half-fascist, half-Labour, and contained only Labour MPs.

His speeches on a european superstate included a policy on a european food surplus specifically to feed the hungry of the world.


3. The government /=/ the movement and ideology.

[Torrocca]

A

No, what I'm saying is that the pro-EU thing makes them seem dishonest about the supposed leftism. I know Mosleyites and the like wanted a European superstate of some kind.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Like I said, they could be wanting to draw in leftists who don't know what Oswald Mosley was all about and the like.



Until Long Knives, when it explicitly became... not socialist.

1. Why does being pro-EU make their leftism seem dishonest?

The EU is basically a Neoliberal continental organization lmao, that's why.

2. So basically your baseless assertions and no actual evidence. "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are." Mosley was also left wing, so Idk what you're talking about here.

I don't trust anyone that calls themselves Fascist and Leftist in the same breath.

3. The government /=/ the movement and ideology.

Sure, but the movement and ideology also became not socialist with that same thing.

[Ostroeuropa]

1. Why does being pro-EU make their leftism seem dishonest?

The EU is basically a Neoliberal continental organization lmao, that's why.

2. So basically your baseless assertions and no actual evidence. "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are." Mosley was also left wing, so Idk what you're talking about here.

I don't trust anyone that calls themselves Fascist and Leftist in the same breath.

3. The government /=/ the movement and ideology.

Sure, but the movement and ideology also became not socialist with that same thing.

1. Only in as much as any other countries government is, but that doesn't mean supporting a nations existence means supporting neoliberalism. The EU could move left, if leftists were elected to its parliament.

2. Like I said; "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are."

[Torrocca]

The EU is basically a Neoliberal continental organization lmao, that's why.



I don't trust anyone that calls themselves Fascist and Leftist in the same breath.



Sure, but the movement and ideology also became not socialist with that same thing.

1. Only in as much as any other countries government is, but that doesn't mean supporting a nations existence means supporting neoliberalism. The EU could move left, if leftists were elected to its parliament.

It could.

2. Like I said; "They aren't left wing." "Why?" "Cos I don't wanna admit they are."

No, I literally don't trust a Fascist that calls themselves Leftist. Long and short of it.

[Cekoviu]

I've become ambivalent about liberal essentialism. Where it's needed, authoritarianism seems fine to me, provided it is held in check by the public. Popular authoritarianism and so on.

I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.

I have no trust for the public simply because it contains people like you. :^)

[Cekoviu]

I see you've added to your sig.

Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.

First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I did not speak out because I was not an easily triggered liberal
When they came for my gravy there was no-one to speak out for me
Because they'd disposed of all the juice

I think that's how it goes.

First they came for the easily triggered liberals, and I was killed because I was an easily triggered liberal
Fin.

More accurate for me.

[The Parkus Empire]

I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.

I have no trust for the public simply because it contains people like you. :^)

>implying I go out in public except to work

[Torrocca]

*Retracted for dickish statement*

[The Parkus Empire]

Well I figure it's more fun to be an actual witch. :^)

I see you've added to your sig.

Eh, it doesn't really bother me, tbh. As long as it has no effect on me, I'm gravy.

Clearly I should have added something about potatoes

[United Muscovite Nations]

I have no trust for the public. Juries are only good devices because they require unanimity. If I were accused of a very serious crime and liable to be put to death, and juries simply required majority vote to convict, I would prefer one hereditary juror try me rather than twelve random peers.

I have no trust for the public simply because it contains people like you. :^)

He's right though, the general public hates people accused of serious crimes, even if there isn't much evidence against them, or even if they have a strong legal defense (for the latter, see the Colorado theater shooter's trial: he had multiple psychiatrists evaluate him as severely mentally ill including a few saying he wasn't mentally competent to stand trial, and he still only avoided the death sentence because some diehard Christian was against the death penalty on principle).

[Democratic Communist Federation]

This is an addition to my Antifa.red page:

“Radical” has become little more than an over–used smear word. Any descriptive significance it may have once conveyed was long ago clouded by the games of partisan politics. Whatever the language, libertarian and left communists are unreservedly extremists:

Semitic: mutaṭarrif (Arabic, مُتَطَرِّف), qiyṣōniy (Hebrew, קִיצוֹנִי), sꞌənəfäña (Amharic, ጽንፈኛ), sawpanaʾ (Syriac/Sūryayaʾ, ܣܵܘܦܵܢܵܐ), and estremisti (Maltese).

Indo–Iranian: ʾin°tihā pasan°da (Urdu, اِنْتِہَا پَسَنْدَ), ʾin°tihāpasan°d (Sindhi, اِنْتِهَاپَسَنْد), ʾif°rātí (Persian and Pashto, اِفْرَاطَی), ifrotgaro (Tajik, ифротгаро), kaṭaṛavādī (Guramukhi Punjabi, ਕੱਟੜਵਾਦੀ), ḱaṭaṛavādí (Shahmukhi Punjabi, کَٹَڑَوَادِی), ativādī (Hindi, अतिवादी), and caramapanthī (Bengali, চরমপন্থী).

Sinospheric: jíduān–fēnzi (Mandarin Chinese, 极端分子), kageki ha (Japanese, 過激派, かげき は, カゲキ ハ), h̄ạw runræng (Thai, หัวรุนแรง), kŭktan chuŭija (Korean, 극단 주의자), and một kẻ cực đoan (Vietnamese).

Italic: ultra (Latin, ultrā, extrémiste (French), extremista (Spanish), extremista (Portugese), extremista (Italian), and extremist (Romanian).

Germanic: Extremist (German), extremistische (Dutch), ekstremist (Danish), ekstremistisk (Norwegian), extremist (Swedish), and ekstremistiese (Afrikaans).

East Slavic: ékstremistskij (Russian, экстремистский) and ekstremíst (Ukrainian, екстреміст).

Finnic–Uralic: äärimmäisyysmies (Finnish) and äärmuslik (Estonian).

Austronesian: seorang ekstremis (Indonesian), lan ekstremis (Javanese), tuhinga o mua (Māori/Te Reo Māori), ka poʿe extremist (Hawaiian), and isang extremist (Filipino).

Turkic: aşırılıkçı (Turkish), ékstremisttik (Kyrgyz, экстремисттик), ekstremistik (Uzbek), and ifratçı (Azerbaijani).

constructed: ekstremisto (Esperanto), lölimik (Volapük), estremiste (Lingua Franca Nova/Elefen/LFN), extremista (Interlingua), ekstremist (Interslavic), extremiste (Sambahsa/Sambahsa–Mundialect), and extremarum partium fautor (Neo–Latin).

miscellaneous: cayraheġakan (Armenian, the lone survivor of the Thraco–Phrygian Indo–European sub–family, ծայրահեղական) and extremistḗs (Modern Greek εξτρεμιστής).