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The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni Islam
121
30%
Sunni Islam (Salafism)
16
4%
Shia Islam
29
7%
Quranist
9
2%
Ahmadiyya
4
1%
Zaydi
8
2%
Ibadist
4
1%
Sufism
22
6%
I do not ascribe to any sect, just call me a Muslim
68
17%
Other
118
30%
 
Total votes : 399

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Samudera Darussalam
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Founded: Aug 05, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:09 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

Muhammadiyah does oppose the blind type of taqlid, aka "following one's opinion without understanding the ground/reason".
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"Alam takambang jadi guru"
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Negarakita
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Posts: 789
Founded: Aug 29, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:11 pm

Jolthig wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

Wikipedia is where I based my earlier comparison as well.

Same. Did we just get taqiyya'd?
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to La Suisse.
Crypto-Muslim with Sufi influences. Radical Centrist. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Use your beautiful religion to beautify yourself. Don't make it worse with your behavior.” ― KH. Mustofa Bisri
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ - 15/3/19‎

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Posts: 13803
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:15 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

Muhammadiyah does oppose the blind type of taqlid, aka "following one's opinion without understanding the ground/reason".

I can agree with that.
Negarakita wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Wikipedia is where I based my earlier comparison as well.

Same. Did we just get taqiyya'd?

Lolyes :rofl:
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
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I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
Scroll down to The Archregimancy's post. This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't ban anyone who uses kafir.
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Gutulia
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Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:22 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

Muhammadiyah does oppose the blind type of taqlid, aka "following one's opinion without understanding the ground/reason".

Are you Muhammadiyah ? I have one friend as Muhammadiyah and several my high school teachers also Muhammadiyah.
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Gutulia
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Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:24 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Samudera Darussalam wrote:Just like other mainstream Muslim communities I think, they respect them (the 'ulama) and follow their ruling and jurisdiction about Islam in general. Muhammadiyah has several 'ulama affiliated to them, just like NU.

Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

I think wikipedia write and edit by many editors. I prefer to official blog or website for references
Last edited by Gutulia on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Samudera Darussalam
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Posts: 901
Founded: Aug 05, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Gutulia wrote:Are you Muhammadiyah ? I have one friend as Muhammadiyah and several my high school teachers also Muhammadiyah.

I don't consider myself as one, but after nine years spent in that schools, my religious practice is kind of shaped according to their views, aka not practicing qunut.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Embassy Link - This is closed for a while.




"Alam takambang jadi guru"
(Learn from the wide world)

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Posts: 13803
Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:26 pm

Gutulia wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

I think wikipedia write and edit by many editors. I prefer to official blog or website for references

Point made.
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
Scroll down to The Archregimancy's post. This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't ban anyone who uses kafir.
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

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Negarakita
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Aug 29, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
Gutulia wrote:Are you Muhammadiyah ? I have one friend as Muhammadiyah and several my high school teachers also Muhammadiyah.

I don't consider myself as one, but after nine years spent in that schools, my religious practice is kind of shaped according to their views, aka not practicing qunut.

Do you know any good places to find out about their views? Preferably english ofc but as long as google translate will give me a rough idea it should be fine.

Also for you and Gutulia, what do NU think about Sufism?
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to La Suisse.
Crypto-Muslim with Sufi influences. Radical Centrist. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Use your beautiful religion to beautify yourself. Don't make it worse with your behavior.” ― KH. Mustofa Bisri
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ - 15/3/19‎

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Gutulia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:37 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
Gutulia wrote:Are you Muhammadiyah ? I have one friend as Muhammadiyah and several my high school teachers also Muhammadiyah.

I don't consider myself as one, but after nine years spent in that schools, my religious practice is kind of shaped according to their views, aka not practicing qunut.

As a child, I was used to the teachings of Nahdlatul Ulama taught in the home environment after entering high school, I was educated by religious teachers who followed Muhammadiyah (even though it was not a Muhammadiyah school) so that I knew some of the ideas taught like tahlilan was futile, avoiding syirik like Sesajen who always practising by Javanese peoples
R E P U B L I K --- K E D U A
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Negarakita
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Aug 29, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Gutulia wrote:
Samudera Darussalam wrote:I don't consider myself as one, but after nine years spent in that schools, my religious practice is kind of shaped according to their views, aka not practicing qunut.

As a child, I was used to the teachings of Nahdlatul Ulama taught in the home environment after entering high school, I was educated by religious teachers who followed Muhammadiyah (even though it was not a Muhammadiyah school) so that I knew some of the ideas taught like tahlilan was futile, avoiding syirik like Sesajen who always practising by Javanese peoples

How would you describe NU? I was running off the assumption that they were super conservative, but that seems to not be true? Their theme song is great at least.

Sorry about all the questions on Indonesian Islam btw, it's just that I am interested in potentially living there one day (wallah not as a creepy sexpat) and would like to know which group is better. Plus I'm trying to buy a Songkok with one of their logos and don't know who to choose.
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to La Suisse.
Crypto-Muslim with Sufi influences. Radical Centrist. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Use your beautiful religion to beautify yourself. Don't make it worse with your behavior.” ― KH. Mustofa Bisri
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ - 15/3/19‎

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Gutulia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:23 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Samudera Darussalam wrote:I don't consider myself as one, but after nine years spent in that schools, my religious practice is kind of shaped according to their views, aka not practicing qunut.

Do you know any good places to find out about their views? Preferably english ofc but as long as google translate will give me a rough idea it should be fine.

Also for you and Gutulia, what do NU think about Sufism?

I I don't know Nahdlatul Ulama think about Sufism/Tasawuf. I only know don't feel complacent with life in the world and always remember God in daily activities.
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Gutulia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:37 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:As a child, I was used to the teachings of Nahdlatul Ulama taught in the home environment after entering high school, I was educated by religious teachers who followed Muhammadiyah (even though it was not a Muhammadiyah school) so that I knew some of the ideas taught like tahlilan was futile, avoiding syirik like Sesajen who always practising by Javanese peoples

How would you describe NU? I was running off the assumption that they were super conservative, but that seems to not be true? Their theme song is great at least.

Sorry about all the questions on Indonesian Islam btw, it's just that I am interested in potentially living there one day (wallah not as a creepy sexpat) and would like to know which group is better. Plus I'm trying to buy a Songkok with one of their logos and don't know who to choose.

Both groups are better, NU or Muhammadiyah. Many Indonesian peoples like me not entirely NU because of the effects on the days of children up to adolescents who are influenced by NU so I still use the teachings about worship based on these organization but I also agree with some of the things that are in the teachings of Muhammadiyah.

Nahdlatul Ulama said to be conservative because it still uses local traditions in religious teachings as practised by Islamic spreaders in Java in the past times by Walisongo.
Last edited by Gutulia on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
R E P U B L I K --- K E D U A
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Negarakita
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Aug 29, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:40 pm

Gutulia wrote:
Negarakita wrote:How would you describe NU? I was running off the assumption that they were super conservative, but that seems to not be true? Their theme song is great at least.

Sorry about all the questions on Indonesian Islam btw, it's just that I am interested in potentially living there one day (wallah not as a creepy sexpat) and would like to know which group is better. Plus I'm trying to buy a Songkok with one of their logos and don't know who to choose.

Both groups are better, NU or Muhammadiyah. Many Indonesian peoples like me not entirely NU because of the effects on the days of children up to adolescents who are influenced by NU so I still use the teachings about worship based on these organization but I also agree with some of the things that are in the teachings of Muhammadiyah.

Nahdlatul Ulama said to be conservative because it still uses local traditions in religious teachings as practised by Islamic spreaders in Java in the past by Walisongo.

In your opinion tho, whose songkok should I get?
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to La Suisse.
Crypto-Muslim with Sufi influences. Radical Centrist. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Use your beautiful religion to beautify yourself. Don't make it worse with your behavior.” ― KH. Mustofa Bisri
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ - 15/3/19‎

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Gutulia
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Posts: 160
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:42 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:Both groups are better, NU or Muhammadiyah. Many Indonesian peoples like me not entirely NU because of the effects on the days of children up to adolescents who are influenced by NU so I still use the teachings about worship based on these organization but I also agree with some of the things that are in the teachings of Muhammadiyah.

Nahdlatul Ulama said to be conservative because it still uses local traditions in religious teachings as practised by Islamic spreaders in Java in the past by Walisongo.

In your opinion tho, whose songkok should I get?

Black songkok. You could find all types of songkok in market
R E P U B L I K --- K E D U A
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El-Amin Caliphate
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: Apr 05, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:04 pm

Indonesia does seem like a nice place to live/visit.
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
Scroll down to The Archregimancy's post. This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't ban anyone who uses kafir.
CLICK THIS
https://americanvision.org/948/theonomy-vs-theocracy/ wrote:God’s law cannot govern a nation where God’s law does not rule in the hearts of the people

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Negarakita
Diplomat
 
Posts: 789
Founded: Aug 29, 2017
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Gutulia wrote:
Negarakita wrote:In your opinion tho, whose songkok should I get?

Black songkok. You could find all types of songkok in market

It's on Shopee and they have all sorts. Could just go for a black one tho
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to La Suisse.
Crypto-Muslim with Sufi influences. Radical Centrist. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Use your beautiful religion to beautify yourself. Don't make it worse with your behavior.” ― KH. Mustofa Bisri
إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ - 15/3/19‎

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:04 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Indonesia does seem like a nice place to live/visit.

I know a few brothers and sisters from there.
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Samudera Darussalam
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Founded: Aug 05, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:09 am

Negarakita wrote:Do you know any good places to find out about their views? Preferably english ofc but as long as google translate will give me a rough idea it should be fine.

Also for you and Gutulia, what do NU think about Sufism?

Unfortunately, I've no idea about that (the good places). It seems that they have an official website, but it's written in Indonesian.
Back when I graduated from the last Muhammadiyah school I attended, they just established their own tv channel (no website) so I have no clear idea whether this could satisfy your questions or not.
I also found this, where the author wrote about both organizations in the book (maybe you can compare them yourself).

There is this one, if you want to understand about Muhammadiyah's view on taqlid; this one about NU, but you can always search for the other sources.



I don't really know either about how NU's views on sufism, but as far as I know, Nahdlatul Ulama seems to hold a rather favourable view on them.

Gutulia wrote:Both groups are better, NU or Muhammadiyah. Many Indonesian peoples like me not entirely NU because of the effects on the days of children up to adolescents who are influenced by NU so I still use the teachings about worship based on these organization but I also agree with some of the things that are in the teachings of Muhammadiyah.

Nahdlatul Ulama said to be conservative because it still uses local traditions in religious teachings as practised by Islamic spreaders in Java in the past times by Walisongo.

I also share the same opinion, but instead of NU, I'm more influenced by Muhammadiyah.
NU seems more lax towards the practice of several pre-Islamic indigenous (mainly Javanese) culture, such as larung saji.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"Alam takambang jadi guru"
(Learn from the wide world)

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Seraven
Senator
 
Posts: 3570
Founded: Jun 10, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Seraven » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:11 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Indonesia does seem like a nice place to live/visit.


It really depends on how do you classify Indonesia as a nice place to live/visit, as well as regions. Some regions are definitely more conservative, like Aceh. Other regions have the moderate-conservative balance, slightly tipped to one another every time, like Jakarta. Bali is probably the most liberal region, though the Hindu influence is strong there due to large population of Hindu practitioners.

I really wonder how Aceh's going to be, though. I heard they were affected by brain drain due to the lack of industrialization and high unemployment in the region.
Copper can change as its quality went down.
Gold can't change, for its quality never went down.
The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Saranidia
Minister
 
Posts: 2528
Founded: Sep 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Saranidia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:18 am

Seraven wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Indonesia does seem like a nice place to live/visit.


It really depends on how do you classify Indonesia as a nice place to live/visit, as well as regions. Some regions are definitely more conservative, like Aceh. Other regions have the moderate-conservative balance, slightly tipped to one another every time, like Jakarta. Bali is probably the most liberal region, though the Hindu influence is strong there due to large population of Hindu practitioners.

I really wonder how Aceh's going to be, though. I heard they were affected by brain drain due to the lack of industrialization and high unemployment in the region.

Indonesian secularism doesn’t make it compassionate all the time too.
Dog fighting is “legal” in Indonesia despite being haram.

User avatar
Seraven
Senator
 
Posts: 3570
Founded: Jun 10, 2012
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Seraven » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:30 am

Saranidia wrote:
Seraven wrote:
It really depends on how do you classify Indonesia as a nice place to live/visit, as well as regions. Some regions are definitely more conservative, like Aceh. Other regions have the moderate-conservative balance, slightly tipped to one another every time, like Jakarta. Bali is probably the most liberal region, though the Hindu influence is strong there due to large population of Hindu practitioners.

I really wonder how Aceh's going to be, though. I heard they were affected by brain drain due to the lack of industrialization and high unemployment in the region.

Indonesian secularism doesn’t make it compassionate all the time too.
Dog fighting is “legal” in Indonesia despite being haram.


Secularism never really translates well in Indonesia post-New Order period.
Copper can change as its quality went down.
Gold can't change, for its quality never went down.
The Alma Mater wrote:
Seraven wrote:I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever :P

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Saranidia
Minister
 
Posts: 2528
Founded: Sep 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Saranidia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:34 am

Seraven wrote:
Saranidia wrote:Indonesian secularism doesn’t make it compassionate all the time too.
Dog fighting is “legal” in Indonesia despite being haram.


Secularism never really translates well in Indonesia post-New Order period.

What is wrong with Allah being the supreme law giver?

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:43 am

Saranidia wrote:
Seraven wrote:
Secularism never really translates well in Indonesia post-New Order period.

What is wrong with Allah being the supreme law giver?

He hasn't advanced to the 21st century yet.
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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Saranidia
Minister
 
Posts: 2528
Founded: Sep 14, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Saranidia » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:44 am

New haven america wrote:
Saranidia wrote:What is wrong with Allah being the supreme law giver?

He hasn't advanced to the 21st century yet.

Islam is actually growing in the 21st century and that’s a core Islamic belief.
Although I admit I am quite old school in some ways.

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New haven america
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30337
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby New haven america » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:47 am

Saranidia wrote:
New haven america wrote:He hasn't advanced to the 21st century yet.

Islam is actually growing in the 21st century and that’s a core Islamic belief.
Although I admit I am quite old school in some ways.

Maybe because the human population is growing exponentially...
Human of the male variety
Will accept TGs
Char/Axis 2020

That's all folks~

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