Race and IQ

[The Archregimancy]

In other words, imperialism works.

Doesn't work as well with IQ90 populations as IQ105 populations though.

Given the necessity to give them endless welfare to pretend they were on the same level as us, even a functional Iraq colony would, with current assumptions, be of negative value.


ModEdit: This discussion has been split off from the UK politics thread, which is why the OP seems a little brief; it's the point where the thread veered towards a different topic rather than a deliberate thread OP.

[Liriena]

Bank of England ‘could introduce its own Bitcoin-style digital currency’

Give financial speculators something more to speculate with?

Umm... yeah, sure... :/

Also, this is not a good look.

Housing Minister Alok Sharma has confessed that they haven't funded any crucial repairs in the six months since the blaze - despite 36 councils asking for help

Doesn't work as well with IQ90 populations as IQ105 populations though.

People who obsess so much over IQ as a thinly veiled excuse for racism make me sad. It's like when incels obsess over the size and shape of jaws on a milimetric scale.

[HMS Barham]

Then again I supported the war because I believed that it would turn Iraq into South Korea on the Euphrates, because at that time I still believed that all men are created equal.

Well, in that case, genocide would have fixed that.

Basically- the way to make Iraq work would be to give it the Australia treatment.

Problem: we have plenty of land, we don't have a population surplus, our population is shrinking, and Iraq is far from the best place to conquer anyway.

Makes no sense on any level to attack it.

But Bush and Obama can also be considered anti-geniuses. The war has not, by any direct intentional means, improved our position at all. But the general level of chaos it has created in that region has totally paralysed it, probably for half a century by the time it is all worked out. Iraq and Syria did at one time have the ability to produce a few gun-type uranium bombs if given enough time. Now they can barely keep the water running.

[HMS Barham]

Doesn't work as well with IQ90 populations as IQ105 populations though.

People who obsess so much over IQ as a thinly veiled excuse for racism make me sad. It's like when incels obsess over the size and shape of jaws on a milimetric scale.

I've been pretty open believing in massive and important racial differences - racism - of which IQ is just one, albeit one of the more important and most easily measured. There is overwhelming evidence for it, and "the evidence makes me sad", at varying levels of complexity, seems to be the only counterargument I have found.

[Liriena]

People who obsess so much over IQ as a thinly veiled excuse for racism make me sad. It's like when incels obsess over the size and shape of jaws on a milimetric scale.

I've been pretty open believing in massive and important racial differences - racism - of which IQ is just one, albeit one of the more important and most easily measured. There is overwhelming evidence for it, and "the evidence makes me sad", at varying levels of complexity, seems to be the only counterargument I have found.

That was not my counterargument, though. My counterargument would be that you are looking at modern, historically constructed categories as an essential, natural underlying cause for the differences you see... which is the sort of simplistic, historically illiterate thinking that only someone with a racist confirmation bias and no genuine curiosity would resort to.

[HMS Barham]

Then again I supported the war because I believed that it would turn Iraq into South Korea on the Euphrates, because at that time I still believed that all men are created equal.

Or, to put it more accurately, you failed to take into account the social, cultural, economic and political specificities of Iraq, ignorantly assumed that the same thing that had happened decades before in an entirely different context could be carbon-copied... and the lesson you took from your ignorant blunder was "I should have been more racist about it."

South Korea, Japan, Poland, Estonia, Singapore, Chile - they all carbon copies? Culturally, socially, politically identical? No.

But what they do have in common at IQ95+ populations.

[Liriena]

Or, to put it more accurately, you failed to take into account the social, cultural, economic and political specificities of Iraq, ignorantly assumed that the same thing that had happened decades before in an entirely different context could be carbon-copied... and the lesson you took from your ignorant blunder was "I should have been more racist about it."

South Korea, Japan, Poland, Estonia, Singapore, Chile - they all carbon copies? Culturally, socially, politically identical? No.

But what they do have in common at IQ95+ populations.

So? Completely different peoples with completely different, often separate histories currently sit above a historically constructed standard. Neat. And what can we assess from that phenomenon?

[HMS Barham]

I've been pretty open believing in massive and important racial differences - racism - of which IQ is just one, albeit one of the more important and most easily measured. There is overwhelming evidence for it, and "the evidence makes me sad", at varying levels of complexity, seems to be the only counterargument I have found.

That was not my counterargument, though.

Strictly you made no counterargument at all. Your rebuttal, such as it was, was a rhetorical shaming exercise - which bot proves nothing and works poorly on an anonymous platform.

My counterargument would be that you are looking at modern, historically constructed categories as an essential, natural underlying cause for the differences you see... which is the sort of simplistic, historically illiterate thinking that only someone with a racist confirmation bias and no genuine curiosity would resort to.

I am looking at biological reality. IQ is no more constructed than length or weight. Obviously, all the genuinely curious people believe what is comforting and popular.

[Ostroeuropa]

South Korea, Japan, Poland, Estonia, Singapore, Chile - they all carbon copies? Culturally, socially, politically identical? No.

But what they do have in common at IQ95+ populations.

So? Completely different peoples with completely different, often separate histories currently sit above a historically constructed standard. Neat. And what can we assess from that phenomenon?

Failed examples may also be self-selecting.

Compare north koreas IQ for example.

If a country tumbles into instability and civil war, we may see lower intelligence among the populace due to infrastructure problems, famines, etc.

[Eastfield Lodge]

So? Completely different peoples with completely different, often separate histories currently sit above a historically constructed standard. Neat. And what can we assess from that phenomenon?

Failed examples may also be self-selecting.

Compare north koreas IQ for example.

If a country tumbles into instability and civil war, we may see lower intelligence among the populace due to infrastructure problems, famines, etc.

True, equality of opportunity is the only way to properly demonstrate any biological differences.

[HMS Barham]

South Korea, Japan, Poland, Estonia, Singapore, Chile - they all carbon copies? Culturally, socially, politically identical? No.

But what they do have in common at IQ95+ populations.

So? Completely different peoples with completely different, often separate histories currently sit above a historically constructed standard. Neat. And what can we assess from that phenomenon?

You claimed that I should have expected westernising Iraq to fail - or at least not have expected it to succeed - because Iraq is different to Britain and the US or whatever. But westernisation has succeeded in many countries that are very different to Britain and the US, and very different to one another. Iraq is not, by any of those measures, peculiarly different to countries that have succeeded in Westernising, or even countries that succeeded in Westernising under US tutelage.

So what are the problems with Iraq? The people are not that smart, nor that forward-looking. I can't even say it's Islam because the Kurds are Muslims and they were pretty much on-board with the US improving their country, rather than fighting an endless civil war to bring back the 7th century.

[HMS Barham]

So? Completely different peoples with completely different, often separate histories currently sit above a historically constructed standard. Neat. And what can we assess from that phenomenon?

Failed examples may also be self-selecting.

Compare north koreas IQ for example.

If a country tumbles into instability and civil war, we may see lower intelligence among the populace due to infrastructure problems, famines, etc.

NK is a hermit kingdom - but look at China's IQ. China was dirt poor until quite recently. Practically all Chinese grew up in what is basically a third world country. It's still above 100. Biological essentialism is more consistent with reality than Liriena's Marxian approach.

[Eastfield Lodge]

So what are the problems with Iraq? The people are not that smart, nor that forward-looking. I can't even say it's Islam because the Kurds are Muslims and they were pretty much on-board with the US improving their country, rather than fighting an endless civil war to bring back the 7th century.

Wait, you're saying that Islam isn't a wholly negative thing that needs to be eliminated at all costs?

[Liriena]

That was not my counterargument, though.

Strictly you made no counterargument at all. Your rebuttal, such as it was, was a rhetorical shaming exercise - which bot proves nothing and works poorly on an anonymous platform.

Yes. Shaming unapologetic racists is good.

My counterargument would be that you are looking at modern, historically constructed categories as an essential, natural underlying cause for the differences you see... which is the sort of simplistic, historically illiterate thinking that only someone with a racist confirmation bias and no genuine curiosity would resort to.

I am looking at biological reality. IQ is no more constructed than length or weight. Obviously, all the genuinely curious people believe what is comforting and popular.

I wasn't talking about IQ. I was talking about race. Race, as a category, is quite modern and historically constructed. And it's not a "biological reality". Not really. Phenotypical and genetic differences are a biological reality, but categories like "black" and "white", or "African" and "European" are historically constructed and ultimately rooted more in social and cultural biases than hard science. Modern racial categories do as poor a job of reflecting the history and complexity of phenotypical and genetic differences as the categories devised by Hippocrates of Cos.

[Eibenland]

So what are the problems with Iraq? The people are not that smart, nor that forward-looking. I can't even say it's Islam because the Kurds are Muslims and they were pretty much on-board with the US improving their country, rather than fighting an endless civil war to bring back the 7th century.

Wait, you're saying that Islam isn't a wholly negative thing that needs to be eliminated at all costs?

He's replaced "Islam is evil" with "Arabs are stupid".

[HMS Barham]

Strictly you made no counterargument at all. Your rebuttal, such as it was, was a rhetorical shaming exercise - which bot proves nothing and works poorly on an anonymous platform.

Yes. Shaming unapologetic racists is good.

Why? For it to be good you need to prove racism is false, but your argument that racism is false is that believing it to be true is shameful. A circular [non-]argument.

I am looking at biological reality. IQ is no more constructed than length or weight. Obviously, all the genuinely curious people believe what is comforting and popular.

I wasn't talking about IQ. I was talking about race. Race, as a category, is quite modern and historically constructed. And it's not a "biological reality". Not really. Phenotypical and genetic differences are a biological reality, but categories like "black" and "white", or "African" and "European" are historically constructed and ultimately rooted more in social and cultural biases than hard science, and do a poor job of reflecting the history and complexity of phenotypical and genetic differences.

Race is at most as socially constructed as the colours of the rainbow. That doesn't mean that green light has the same wavelength as yellow light.

[HMS Barham]

Wait, you're saying that Islam isn't a wholly negative thing that needs to be eliminated at all costs?

He's replaced "Islam is evil" with "Arabs are stupid".

I'm not sure I ever actually claimed Islam is evil, nor is Islam-bashing really my thing. I think Islam is a present enemy. Germany used to be our enemy; doesn't mean I believe the trains didn't run on time in Munich in 1940.

[Liriena]

China was dirt poor until quite recently.

China's history didn't begin in 1949, nor was the entirety of its history until recently one of absolute, apocalyptic misery.

[Liriena]

I wasn't talking about IQ. I was talking about race. Race, as a category, is quite modern and historically constructed. And it's not a "biological reality". Not really. Phenotypical and genetic differences are a biological reality, but categories like "black" and "white", or "African" and "European" are historically constructed and ultimately rooted more in social and cultural biases than hard science, and do a poor job of reflecting the history and complexity of phenotypical and genetic differences.

Race is at most as socially constructed as the colours of the rainbow. That doesn't mean that green light has the same wavelength as yellow light.

How do you personally distingish one race from another?

[Eastfield Lodge]

He's replaced "Islam is evil" with "Arabs are stupid".

I'm not sure I ever actually claimed Islam is evil, nor is Islam-bashing really my thing. I think Islam is a present enemy. Germany used to be our enemy; doesn't mean I believe the trains didn't run on time in Munich in 1940.

Strange, I was of the opinion that you thought Islam was incompatible with your worldview and therefore had to destroyed...

[HMS Barham]

China was dirt poor until quite recently.

China's history didn't begin in 1949, nor was the entirety of its history until recently one of absolute, apocalyptic misery.

It certainly was by modern European standards.

China was a dirt poor country in 1990, with a total GDP less than that of the Netherlands, a country with about 1% the population.

If modern European diet and living conditions were responsible for modern European IQ advantage over Arabs, then we would expect Chinese IQ to be comparable to that of Arabs, and rising rapidly. Instead, we see it has consistently been about the level of Europeans, and is rising (in relative terms) slowly or not at all.

[Liriena]

Wait, you're saying that Islam isn't a wholly negative thing that needs to be eliminated at all costs?

He's replaced "Islam is evil" with "Arabs are stupid".

And more embarrassingly, "Arabs are stupid becase they are Arabs".

[HMS Barham]

Race is at most as socially constructed as the colours of the rainbow. That doesn't mean that green light has the same wavelength as yellow light.

How do you personally distingish one race from another?

How do you personally distinguish the colours green and yellow?

[HMS Barham]

I'm not sure I ever actually claimed Islam is evil, nor is Islam-bashing really my thing. I think Islam is a present enemy. Germany used to be our enemy; doesn't mean I believe the trains didn't run on time in Munich in 1940.

Strange, I was of the opinion that you thought Islam was incompatible with your worldview and therefore had to destroyed...

The topic of the discussion is how well societies work, not whether they are good or bad.

[Liriena]

China's history didn't begin in 1949, nor was the entirety of its history until recently one of absolute, apocalyptic misery.

It certainly was by modern European standards.

Think really hard about this bit. It holds the key to becoming just a little bit woke.

China was a dirt poor country in 1990, with a total GDP less than that of the Netherlands, a country with about 1% the population.

If modern European diet and living conditions were responsible for modern European IQ advantage over Arabs, then we would expect Chinese IQ to be comparable to that of Arabs, and rising rapidly. Instead, we see it has consistently been about the level of Europeans, and is rising (in relative terms) slowly or not at all.

Again, China's history didn't begin in 1949. You're literally talking about the most ancient nation in existence.