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Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What type of leftist are you?

Left-leaning Centrist
105
13%
Left/Social Liberal
74
9%
Social Democrat
115
14%
Democratic Socialist
139
17%
Marxist Communist
139
17%
Social Anarchist
50
6%
Individualist Anarchist
38
5%
Revolutionary Syndicalist
39
5%
Communalist
27
3%
Other (Please Post)
71
9%
 
Total votes : 797

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Proctopeo
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Posts: 7863
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:48 am

Crysuko wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:In Kaiserreich, syndicalists have the tendency to show up when things are bad and make things even worse.

worse how.

Creating new enemies, weakening the country, sometimes becoming comparable to our Soviet Russia. That type of stuff.
Mosley, for example, is a totalitarian socialist instead of a fascist in this timeline.
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Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

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Victoriala II
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Founded: Jul 30, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Victoriala II » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:08 am

it's like saying if we vaporized albert einstein the japanese empire would rise again, and before that wed have yuri tryna mind control the world
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Crysuko
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Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:16 am

Victoriala II wrote:it's like saying if we vaporized albert einstein the japanese empire would rise again, and before that wed have yuri tryna mind control the world

Red Alert 3
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:20 am

Crysuko wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Then I take it your pastime is breaking windows?

Machiavellian though he was, he wasn't 'bad'.

A: ad hominem, not an argument
B: he ordered atrocities to happen and brutally crushed anyone who opposed him, yes he fecking was.

Franco was, morally speaking, 100% as bad as Lenin, imho
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The Parkus Empire
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:21 am

He ranks with Robespierre as well.
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The Parkus Empire
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:23 am

I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.
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Proctopeo
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Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:32 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.

At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.
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Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

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The Parkus Empire
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Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:38 am

Proctopeo wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.

At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.

He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.
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Crysuko
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Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:46 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.

He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.

that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:48 am

Crysuko wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.

that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down

Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.
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Crysuko
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Posts: 4595
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:52 am

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Crysuko wrote:that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down

Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:54 am

Crysuko wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.
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Crysuko
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Posts: 4595
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:03 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Crysuko wrote:I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.
Last edited by Crysuko on Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:08 pm

Crysuko wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

I was not referring to Stalin.
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Crysuko
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Posts: 4595
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:09 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Crysuko wrote:now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

I was not referring to Stalin.

who, then
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16586
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:11 pm

Crysuko wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:15 pm

Crysuko wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:I was not referring to Stalin.

who, then

Lenin, Robespierre, Marius
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Crysuko
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Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crysuko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:18 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Crysuko wrote:now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Crysuko wrote:who, then

Lenin, Robespierre, Marius

I won't defend Lenin, but Robespierre was a liberal.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

¡A Las Barricades!

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:22 pm

Crysuko wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

The Parkus Empire wrote:Lenin, Robespierre, Marius

I won't defend Lenin, but Robespierre was a liberal.

Joseph Fouche, then
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United Muscovite Nations
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:30 pm

Crysuko wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.


https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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The Parkus Empire
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Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:32 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.


https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war

Sounds like anarchy
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The New Sea Territory
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Founded: Dec 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:48 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Crysuko wrote:Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.


https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth


What's interesting about the piece you quoted is that the text latter disagrees with these references:

In one area, however, Makhno made a significant compromise with his libertarian principles. As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions. His violent tendencies, some maintain, were accentuated by bouts with alcohol. Volin underscores Makhno's drinking and carousing nature, and Victor Serge describes him as "boozing, swashbuckling, disorderly and idealistic."15 Hostile observers have compared him to a Chinese warlord, insisting that his army was libertarian only in name. This, however, is not a true picture. Although military considerations inevitably clashed with Makhno's anarchistic doctrines, his army was more popular both in organization and social composition than any other fighting force of his day.


Furthermore, I'm only willing to grant Volin's account might have some weight. Victor Serge left the anarchists to join the Bolsheviks, so his interests lie more in a historical depiction of Makhno that justifies and rationalizes the Red Army's response. Volin, despite explicit disagreement with Makhno over organizational theory, does not appear to benefit from lashing out at a growing regime's enemies from his writings.

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war


Again, it seems like you're not quoting the whole article:

This is a story about massacres that occurred in Southern Ukraine between 26th October and 7th December, 1919. The victims, avowedly-pacifist German Mennonites, included several women and elderly people; in Eichenfeld, almost one third of the village population was killed, including a 65 year-old blind woman. All the massacres occurred in the vicinity of the Makhnovist army. And then, after six weeks, they stopped.

This is also the story of an émigré community whose members invented an anarchist bogeyman to justify having betrayed their pacifist principles. It’s about estate owners who earned 3000 times what they paid their labourers, landlords who conscripted soldiers to protect their wealth, and pacifists who fought for an army that killed tens of thousands of Jews.


It seems you're playing the "rich people as victims of revolutionary violence" card, just hidden through selective quotation about minorities and military structure.
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of darkness with mystically brutal fury to dim the serene and festive exultation of the dionysian spirit of our pagan ancestors."
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Democratic Communist Federation
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Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:50 pm

Proctopeo wrote:Have you seen the Union of Britain?


Wishful thinking:

Union of Britain

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Democratic Communist Federation
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Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Crysuko wrote:I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.


Stalinism was quasi-fascist but certainly not red.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:55 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Crysuko wrote:I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.


Stalinism was quasi-fascist but certainly not red.

Not at all. There's no evidence that Stalin ever betrayed Marxist principles, and many biographers have found that he remained very ideological until his death.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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