The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Atlantic Tide]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

[Corpus Magnus]

Oh, I see. Your scriptural references are rather irrelevant but I see where you're coming from.

I am showing you where i'm getting this idea from so you can correct me if i'm interpreting them wrong.

No, I understand you. It's just that your evidence is conflicting - first you provided two verses, one from the Bible and one from the BoM, that both show that grace alone brings salvation, and from that you draw the extrapolation that we believe good works bring salvation. Then you cited three Bible verses that basically explain the Mormon belief in three sentences. I'm not really following your train of thought.

[Corpus Magnus]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Pfft.

[Eli Islands]

I am showing you where i'm getting this idea from so you can correct me if i'm interpreting them wrong.

No, I understand you. It's just that your evidence is conflicting - first you provided two verses, one from the Bible and one from the BoM, that both show that grace alone brings salvation, and from that you draw the extrapolation that we believe good works bring salvation. Then you cited three Bible verses that basically explain the Mormon belief in three sentences. I'm not really following your train of thought.

oh, then I must have misunderstood.

[Corpus Magnus]

But they act as one. Technically there is a difference, but practically there is not.

...If they share a will, and a substance...then they’re one. Can you show specifically where in the Bible it says they’re not one substance? (If you’ve already done so and I missed it, I apologize. I been busy RPing all morning!)

John 17, and other times when Jesus speaks/prays to God
Hebrews 1, and other times when God speaks to Jesus
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My question: Where in the Bible does it say they are one substance?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Duck and cover, here come the Orthoboos.

[Auze]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Come back to the one true original faith - Nontrinitarian Christianity!

[Corpus Magnus]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Come back to the one true original faith - Nontrinitarian Christianity!

Specifically our branch of nontrinitarian Christianity!

[Hakons]

I thought Catholicism affirmed Sola Gratia? We are not saved by our number of works, but by the grace of Christ's sacrifice. Salvation is a gift and not a reward.

This is different from the debate over Sola Fide, or faith vs. faith plus works.

Catholics affirm Sola Gratia in that yes salvation is a gift and that no amount of works can ever merit salvation. But that's not to say works have no place within the economy of salvation:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[a] if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

Yes, and I absolutely agree with you on that. True faith is actually doing what the faith prescribes. Belief in the Gospel necessitates performing the Gospel.

This is related to Sola Fide, where most Protestants (except Methodists )believe they are saved by faith alone. However, the passages given by Eli Island appear to be discussing Sola Gratia.

[Hakons]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Come back to the one true original faith - Nontrinitarian Christianity!

>original faith
>nontrinitarian

[War Gears]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Come back to the true original faith - Judaism.

[Auze]

Come back to the one true original faith - Nontrinitarian Christianity!

Specifically our branch of nontrinitarian Christianity!

Yeah!

[Hakons]

...If they share a will, and a substance...then they’re one. Can you show specifically where in the Bible it says they’re not one substance? (If you’ve already done so and I missed it, I apologize. I been busy RPing all morning!)

John 17, and other times when Jesus speaks/prays to God
Hebrews 1, and other times when God speaks to Jesus
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My question: Where in the Bible does it say they are one substance?

We've been providing so many verses, my goodness.

John Ch.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[Hakons]

Come back to the one true original faith - The Roman Catholic Church!

Come back to the true original faith - Judaism.

They were at least monotheistic.

I mean, I'm still not seeing how 1st century Christians, who were mostly converted Jews, abandoned their God and proclaimed the existence of three, but actually didn't write about it too much, and the rest of Christianity forgot about it and returned to monotheism.

[Corpus Magnus]

John 17, and other times when Jesus speaks/prays to God
Hebrews 1, and other times when God speaks to Jesus
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

My question: Where in the Bible does it say they are one substance?

We've been providing so many verses, my goodness.

John Ch.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

How does this support the trinitarian view?

[The Archregimancy]

I was having dinner with the head of the heritage division of the LDS church last night; we're currently at a conference, and he's been a friend for some years (yes, I know I'm not particularly kindly inclined to Mormonism theologically, but that doesn't remotely stop me from forming professional relationships and friendships with individuals).

Anyway, interesting tidbit arising from that conversation....

With the bicentenary of Joseph Smith's first 'vision', and subsequently the foundation of the Latter Day Saint Movement, rapidly approaching, the main LDS denomination in Salt Lake is going to be sponsoring archaeological excavations at several historically significant LDS sites in New York. My colleague didn't give me a list of the specific sites that will be subject to research, but at least some of the fieldwork will be focused on the area around the Smith Family Farm.

The real question, at least to my mind, is whether they'll have the gumption to try and excavate Cumorah.

Unfortunately, Thomas Monson's death yesterday may make it insensitive for me to ask for more information when I see my colleague again this week, but I very much look forward to the results of the fieldwork. I have every confidence in my colleague to run a fully professional and reliable programme of archaeological fieldwork.

[Corpus Magnus]

Come back to the true original faith - Judaism.

They were at least monotheistic.

I mean, I'm still not seeing how 1st century Christians, who were mostly converted Jews, abandoned their God and proclaimed the existence of three, but actually didn't write about it too much, and the rest of Christianity forgot about it and returned to monotheism.

The original Christians were not trinitarian.

[Hakons]

We've been providing so many verses, my goodness.

John Ch.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

How does this support the trinitarian view?

The Word is Jesus Christ...

[Corpus Magnus]

How does this support the trinitarian view?

The Word is Jesus Christ...

And...?

[Tarsonis]

They were at least monotheistic.

I mean, I'm still not seeing how 1st century Christians, who were mostly converted Jews, abandoned their God and proclaimed the existence of three, but actually didn't write about it too much, and the rest of Christianity forgot about it and returned to monotheism.

The original Christians were not trinitarian.

That's not correct, while not formally codified until the forth century, the union of Christ and God was an original belief. It was the Holy Spirit that was a little iffy

[Hakons]

They were at least monotheistic.

I mean, I'm still not seeing how 1st century Christians, who were mostly converted Jews, abandoned their God and proclaimed the existence of three, but actually didn't write about it too much, and the rest of Christianity forgot about it and returned to monotheism.

The original Christians were not trinitarian.

Such is your faith.

Mine is Trinitarian, like the faith espoused by the Gospel, Apostles, Church fathers, saints, popes, patriarchs, priests, laymen, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and, bluntly, Christianity.

[Hakons]

The Word is Jesus Christ...

And...?

What does, "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," mean to you? Since the beginning, Christ was with God, and Christ was God.

[Corpus Magnus]

The original Christians were not trinitarian.

Such is your faith.

Mine is Trinitarian, like the faith espoused by the Gospel, Apostles, Church fathers, saints, popes, patriarchs, priests, laymen, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and, bluntly, Christianity.

Mine is the true faith, as supported by the Bible, Book of Mormon, the Apostles and Prophets, the first Christians, and the Godhead itself.

[The Archregimancy]

The original Christians were not trinitarian.

You keep repeating this.

A 'vision' that someone has in a field in upstate New York in 1820 is not objective proof that this is true.

In contrast to Joseph Smith's embrace of a charmingly Dunning-Kruger style of autodidactic theology, the earliest surviving Christian documents outside of the New Testament show that the doctrine of the Trinity was present at the very beginning of Christianity.

Take, for example, the Ignatian Epistles and the Didache. Ignatius of Antioch was a very early Patriarch of Antioch and influential early Church Father who was born c.35 AD, and was executed somewhere between 105-115 AD. His final epistles are therefore contemporary with some of the later books of the New Testament (1-3 John) and even predate 2 Peter.

Chapter 13 of Ignatius's Epistle to the Magnesians clearly states that:

Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit

The date of the Didache has been the subject of some debate, with scholars placing it anywhere between 50-120 AD. This isn't the place to enter into those discussions, but clearly this is a document that dates to either the first or second generation of Christians, likely somewhere in Roman Syria. Chapter 7 of the Didache offers a description of how to baptise new Christians. This clearly states that:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

We can argue until the cows come home over the scriptural basis for the Trinity, but the claim that the earliest Christians were not trinitarian is simply false, as anyone with even a passing familiarity with the earliest Christian texts would realise.

There's scope for arguing whether Ignatius, the author(s) of the Didache, and similar early patristic writers were embracing Nicene trinitarianism, and that's fair enough as these things go; but to take that to the point of arguing that they weren't trinitarian at all simply flies in the face of these clear trinitarian formulations in the very earliest surviving Christian historical documents outside of the Bible itself.

Certainly there's a lot more support for the Trinity in the earliest patristic writings than there is for the existence of the planet Kolob.

[Auze]

Come back to the true original faith - Judaism.

They were at least monotheistic.

I mean, I'm still not seeing how 1st century Christians, who were mostly converted Jews, abandoned their God and proclaimed the existence of three

Two, the holy spirit is only a spirit, not a god.