Who is an American? Who is French? Who is English?

[Alvecia]

What "English" ethnic group? Britons? Anglo-Saxons? The sadly neglected Jutes? Normans? Danes? Norsemen? They've all blended to produce "England."

Theres still a fair bit of ethnic tribalism in England, with a strong divide between Northerners, Southerners, Londoners (and Kernow (Cornwall)*).They may have blended but Northerners are still loathe to being confused for the pompous morons down south and as for Kernow,well England is a foreign country.

Really? I mean, from experience we tease people from certain cities for that city's stereotype, but I've always considered it to be like insulting your best mate.

[Thermodolia]

Or one continent.

Could be, but it is 'The United States of America', not 'The United States of North America', if I'm being nitpicky. That said, you're correct that it is possible.

A few places they do not teach North and South America as two separate continents but instead as one big American continent.

[NeoLiberia]

As a high school student who recently finished reading the book Radicalism and The American Revolution, I might actually have something to contribute here.

If you follow the thesis proposed in that book you might argue that an American is anyone born post-1800. The Founding Fathers were in fact quite conservative by our standards. They thought America was a republican society which required a "disinterested" aristocratic elite to rule it. They were represented by the Federalists (ie: Hamilton's party) whose opposition were Jefferson's (Democratic) Republicans, who named themselves that in reference to the Federalists alleged monarchist nature. The victory of Jefferson in the presidential elections of 1800 marked a point of unstoppable decline for the Federalists. After 1800 American society began to acquire its egalitarian and capitalist nature which really is still around today.

Anyway, that might be a way to think about it. Don't take any of it as pure fact though. I'm literally just restating what I understood from the reading. I'm not very educated.

As for French and English identity: I think French is more of a linguistic and non-ethnic identity. Whereas English directly refers to an ethnic group. That's all I'm really able to say on those.

What "English" ethnic group? Britons? Anglo-Saxons? The sadly neglected Jutes? Normans? Danes? Norsemen? They've all blended to produce "England."

Well there are ethnic groups with many different subgroups within them. I should have specified that I don't really know anything about English identity though, I'm just stating my impressions.

[Ethel mermania]

Hamilton was often considered a monachist, which he wasnt, and his birthING is one of the slanders used against him to incite the point. (Full disclosure: am in the middle of chernow's biography of Hamilton ).

Anyone in the US, or born in the US after the constitution was ratified is considered a citizen.

Hamilton is considered a citizen.
Benidict Arnold is not.

not much of a requirement, really, eh?

but he wasn't considered an outsider before the constitution was ratified. the willingness to fight for the cause is a big reason but no one suggested that he maybe ought to go back home before the revolution.

1. True, but it is what the founders wanted.
2. Yes, this all came up in the debates about the constitution and thereafter, particularly during the defining of the role of the treasury dept. And the national Bank legislation. During Washingtons first term. It got much worse as time went on.

[Forsher]

Identification with the label.

Dubiously possible historically.

Assuming you can find some evidence, you then need to decide whether or not how we understand the label is equivalent to how they understood the label.

[The Rich Port]

Native Americans, or as they're now referred to in the professional setting, the First Americans.

Isn't it an established fact that there is no such thing as an "American"?

Everybody's ancestors who isn't a Native American is an immigrant, whether you're an English Muffin, French Fry, or Guiness beer.

Or a... Taco man.

[Cetacea]

What "English" ethnic group? Britons? Anglo-Saxons? The sadly neglected Jutes? Normans? Danes? Norsemen? They've all blended to produce "England."

Well there are ethnic groups with many different subgroups within them. I should have specified that I don't really know anything about English identity though, I'm just stating my impressions.

yeah don't worry about it as nobody thinks of themselves as being a Jute or from the Danelaw anymore. English Identity politics is derived from the Industrial revolution and more so the decline that followed over the early 20th Century when heavy industry started to leave the UK for other countries.
The north was more heavily industrialized and so suffered more from the decline and is still generally poorer and more unemployed than the south. Moreover the south is more 'rural' with its towns pretty much being service centers feeding in to London (and benefiting from Londons wealth and investment).

There is a distinct difference in spoken dialect and sociopolitical views between the regions which can be considered ethnic but yeah, its not like there the northerners and southerners are on the brink of war or anything, its generally just teasing between friends and the occasional football hooligan...

[Herargon]

Well there are ethnic groups with many different subgroups within them. I should have specified that I don't really know anything about English identity though, I'm just stating my impressions.

yeah don't worry about it as nobody thinks of themselves as being a Jute or from the Danelaw anymore. English Identity politics is derived from the Industrial revolution and more so the decline that followed over the early 20th Century when heavy industry started to leave the UK for other countries.
The north was more heavily industrialized and so suffered more from the decline and is still generally poorer and more unemployed than the south. Moreover the south is more 'rural' with its towns pretty much being service centers feeding in to London (and benefiting from Londons wealth and investment).

There is a distinct difference in spoken dialect and sociopolitical views between the regions which can be considered ethnic but yeah, its not like there the northerners and southerners are on the brink of war or anything, its generally just teasing between friends and the occasional football hooligan...

Well, the closest we come to war between each other is during tea time, when the British use proper tea, and when we put milk in our tea.

[The Two Jerseys]

1777 onward makes most sense to me, as before that a significant portion of the rebels really weren't on board with the whole independence thing and hoped their insurrection would end with the crown giving them more rights as english citizens. Thomas Paine and his ilk started off as something of a lunatic fringe.

But they called themselves Americans as early as the 1600

And the British even referred to Loyalist units as "American Regiments".

[Italios]

Broadly speaking, the first Americans were the Native Americans (obviously) and the first generation of outsiders born on what is now American soil. Not that present-day immigrants can't be considered American, but the very first Europeans in Americans didn't consider themselves American.

[Auristania]

Hamilton is considered a citizen.
Benidict Arnold is not.

That is retarded. If you reckon Arnold was a Brit Patriot, then he AIN'T a traitor.
By that rule, Jefferson Davies and John wilkes Booth ain't traitors to USA but patriots to a totally different country.

[Ethel mermania]

Hamilton is considered a citizen.
Benidict Arnold is not.

That is retarded. If you reckon Arnold was a Brit Patriot, then he AIN'T a traitor.
By that rule, Jefferson Davies and John wilkes Booth ain't traitors to USA but patriots to a totally different country.

Wrong. They were born in america either before or after ratification of the constitution. Any one living in a state when when it entered the union is considered a naturalized citizen.

So someone born in Hawaii prior to its enterence to the union would be eligible to run for president.

[Grave_n_idle]

Hamilton is considered a citizen.
Benidict Arnold is not.

That is retarded. If you reckon Arnold was a Brit Patriot, then he AIN'T a traitor.

That's not much of an argument.

[Grave_n_idle]

1777 onward makes most sense to me, as before that a significant portion of the rebels really weren't on board with the whole independence thing and hoped their insurrection would end with the crown giving them more rights as english citizens. Thomas Paine and his ilk started off as something of a lunatic fringe.

But they called themselves Americans as early as the 1600

As a geographical description - it doesn't mean they weren't good subjects of the King.

[Grave_n_idle]

As a high school student who recently finished reading the book Radicalism and The American Revolution, I might actually have something to contribute here.

If you follow the thesis proposed in that book you might argue that an American is anyone born post-1800. The Founding Fathers were in fact quite conservative by our standards.

No really. They were literally revolutionary - which is pretty much the exact of opposite of 'conservatism'.

The Constitution, itself, is also a revolutionary text. In both senses of the word.

[Sack Jackpot Winners]

As a high school student who recently finished reading the book Radicalism and The American Revolution, I might actually have something to contribute here.

If you follow the thesis proposed in that book you might argue that an American is anyone born post-1800. The Founding Fathers were in fact quite conservative by our standards.

No really. They were literally revolutionary - which is pretty much the exact of opposite of 'conservatism'.

The Constitution, itself, is also a revolutionary text. In both senses of the word.

Also, they were conservative by modern standards, not contemporary standards which is the lens we need to look through.

[Grave_n_idle]

No really. They were literally revolutionary - which is pretty much the exact of opposite of 'conservatism'.

The Constitution, itself, is also a revolutionary text. In both senses of the word.

Also, they were conservative by modern standards, not contemporary standards which is the lens we need to look through.

Why is that the lens we need to look through? Quite the opposite SEEMS like it would be true when the question is about when we can really start referring to people as 'Americans'.

I'm curious to see you defend how the Founders were 'conservative' by modern standards (American 'conservatism' isn't actually conservative, at all - it's reactionary)... but not curious enough to get into a long threadjack about it.

[Auristania]

But they called themselves Americans as early as the 1600

As a geographical description - it doesn't mean they weren't good subjects of the King.

There was a John Wayne movie set in 1740ish. Patriots were fighting versus evil Government. The whole message of the movie was that the Rebels were BRIT Patriots demanding their Magna charta Rights as Free-born Brits.

A big theme in Declaration of Independence was they had tried and tried demanding their Magna charta Rights as Free born Brits and failed.

Benedict Arnold was born a Brit in America. When he joined with Founding Fathers, he was simultaneously a UK Traitor and a USA Patriot, he was patriotic towards a nation that didn't even exist yet. Your brain explodes. West Point shenanigans, Benedict was simultaneously a USA traitor and a UK patriot (a traitor who did a big enough to earn his Pardon)

[Salus Maior]

It probably happened when they started identifying themselves as American, and not so much as British.

[Salus Maior]

Could be, but it is 'The United States of America', not 'The United States of North America', if I'm being nitpicky. That said, you're correct that it is possible.

A few places they do not teach North and South America as two separate continents but instead as one big American continent.

Which is kind of wrong, considering South and North are on different plates.

[Auristania]

A few places they do not teach North and South America as two separate continents but instead as one big American continent.

Which is kind of wrong, considering South and North are on different plates.

Indeed, but we are measuring by continents, not by plates. Because we are measuring from Human point of view and the continents are close enough the same since 150k BC

[Cetacea]

A few places they do not teach North and South America as two separate continents but instead as one big American continent.

Which is kind of wrong, considering South and North are on different plates.

by that standard Siberia and Greenland should be counted as part of North America too, and California should be removed.

Continents are the land we can see and by that measure the American Continent goes from Nunavut down to Cape Horn

[Rio Cana]

I am American, i am SOUTH American.

For now on, everyone in this thread is "United Statenian".

There are even songs. For example this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32jV1_TPWr0

[The Two Jerseys]

As a geographical description - it doesn't mean they weren't good subjects of the King.

There was a John Wayne movie set in 1740ish. Patriots were fighting versus evil Government. The whole message of the movie was that the Rebels were BRIT Patriots demanding their Magna charta Rights as Free-born Brits.

You talking about Allegheny Uprising?

[Rio Cana]

According to historical records, all those from the US should instead of Americans should be called Gomezians or Vasquezians.

Virginia was mapped as part of the land of Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon in 1529, while Estevao Gomes's name was assigned to New England on the secret master map kept in Spain (Padrón Real) for informing ship captains before they sailed

Esteban Gómez was a Portuguese ship pilot who worked for the Spanish. Lucas Vasquez de Ayllon was a Spanish conqueror and explorer.

Map - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 29%29.jpeg

Another map - http://www.agenciasinc.es/var/ezwebin_s ... ge800_.jpg