UK Politics Thread 18-inch Mark VI: Witty Title Forthcoming

[HMS Vanguard]

But that's a lame faux-repudiation. It's yet another No True Scotsman/better luck next time that has literally become a joke already. And which still makes him look like an idiot for not taking a close look at the people at the start, when he told everyone this time it's different.

Well nobody is expecting it will convince everyone, but it I think it will put some left leaning people who are still very wary of Venezuelan style planning at ease. Also, while he's certainly made vague claims about how Venezuela has shown the world an "alternative" to "neo-liberal dogmatism" etc.. I'm not sure if he's actually ever given detailed endorsement about the entire Venezuelan approach, which would make things more awkward than just the platitudes he's made so far that I'm aware of, unless you're aware of some writings/speeches of his I haven't seen?

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're referring to by platitudes but it seems pretty positive to me: https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... 92?lang=en

I mean there are videos of Oswald Moseley after the war being interviewed where he basically makes the point, "Well, apart from the whole Holocaust thing...". I'm not saying this is totally logically indefensible on paper but it is certainly politically indefensible.

The wider problem with Corbyn is that he is the "this time it's different" socialist candidate. To be a viable leader, he has to persuade people that "this time it will be different". Or at least could be. You are proposing that he drop that approach. While I agree it's a bad approach for Labour, it's the only one Corbyn personally can take. His colours are nailed to the mast. If he wants to accept he's wrong on that point, the honourable and pragmatic course is for him to resign.

[Hydesland]

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're referring to by platitudes but it seems pretty positive to me: https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... 92?lang=en

That's definitely a platitude, it was made just after he died right? I think many, even right wing leaders, expressed some regards to Chavez on that day. I still think he was extremely wrong, but I don't think it necessarily goes to his foundational principles.

The wider problem with Corbyn is that he is the "this time it's different" socialist candidate. To be a viable leader, he has to persuade people that "this time it will be different". Or at least could be. You are proposing that he drop that approach. While I agree it's a bad approach for Labour, it's the only one Corbyn personally can take. His colours are nailed to the mast. If he wants to accept he's wrong on that point, the honourable and pragmatic course is for him to resign.

I'm not convinced Corbyn calls for actual socialism, most of his policy proposals so far have been rather piecemeal, the most radical so far is his maximum wage thing, but that's still a far cry from Venezuela I'd say.

[HMS Vanguard]

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're referring to by platitudes but it seems pretty positive to me: https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... 92?lang=en

That's definitely a platitude, it was made just after he died right? I think many, even right wing leaders, expressed some regards to Chavez on that day. I still think he was extremely wrong, but I don't think it necessarily goes to his foundational principles.

Mmm, care to cite a similar quote from a right wing figure?

The wider problem with Corbyn is that he is the "this time it's different" socialist candidate. To be a viable leader, he has to persuade people that "this time it will be different". Or at least could be. You are proposing that he drop that approach. While I agree it's a bad approach for Labour, it's the only one Corbyn personally can take. His colours are nailed to the mast. If he wants to accept he's wrong on that point, the honourable and pragmatic course is for him to resign.

I'm not convinced Corbyn calls for actual socialism, most of his policy proposals so far have been rather piecemeal, the most radical so far is his maximum wage thing, but that's still a far cry from Venezuela I'd say.

Sure but he is trying to compromise with electability in an actually rather crude way (I concede not everyone sees it that way but I rather see Blair was more sincere than Corbyn; by all accounts Blair really believed in his brand of stodgy centrism). He does not have an ideology that says "this far and no further". He is pitching "let's tiptoe in this direction and speed up if you like it".

[Hydesland]

Mmm, care to cite a similar quote from a right wing figure?

Not at hand, but you surely accept that it's hardly unusual for leaders around the world to express diplomatic regards when an important foreign leader dies, unless they are at war with them.

Sure but he is trying to compromise with electability in an actually rather crude way (I concede not everyone sees it that way but I rather see Blair was more sincere than Corbyn; by all accounts Blair really believed in his brand of stodgy centrism). He does not have an ideology that says "this far and no further". He is pitching "let's tiptoe in this direction and speed up if you like it".

Well we're veering off in a tangent here, I think the important thing is, while many on the right and centre regard Corbyn as an unwavering socialist and there is nothing he can do to win them back, the centre left and less politically tuned working class are unsure at this point - I think he could safely drop association with Venezuela to reassure these people, without losing significant support from the hard left.

[HMS Vanguard]

Mmm, care to cite a similar quote from a right wing figure?

Not at hand, but you surely accept that it's hardly unusual for leaders around the world to express diplomatic regards when an important foreign leader dies, unless they are at war with them.

I would expect the British government to have sent a formulaic expression of regret that did not endorse any of his ideas or policies. I'm no expert, but wouldn't consider it unreasonable for a political party to not issue a statement or even to issue a negative statement.

And after writing that I decided to look for it:

"The UK expresses its condolences to the government and people of Cuba, and to the former President’s family. Fidel Castro’s death marks the end of an era for Cuba and the start of a new one for Cuba’s people.

"Fidel Castro’s leadership of the 1959 Cuban Revolution marked him out as an historic if controversial figure. The UK will continue to work with the government of Cuba on a wide range of foreign policy priorities, including on human rights."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fore ... del-castro

So personal regrets but on policy the message was, translated from diplomatese, "he was a dickhead".

"I was saddened to learn of the death of President Hugo Chavez today. As President of Venezuela for 14 years he has left a lasting impression on the country and more widely. I would like to offer my condolences to his family and to the Venezuelan people at this time."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fore ... ugo-chavez

So personal regrets but on policy the message was, translated from diplomatese, "yes, he had some".

Sure but he is trying to compromise with electability in an actually rather crude way (I concede not everyone sees it that way but I rather see Blair was more sincere than Corbyn; by all accounts Blair really believed in his brand of stodgy centrism). He does not have an ideology that says "this far and no further". He is pitching "let's tiptoe in this direction and speed up if you like it".

Well we're veering off in a tangent here, I think the important thing is, while many on the right and centre regard Corbyn as an unwavering socialist and there is nothing he can do to win them back, the centre left and less politically tuned working class are unsure at this point - I think he could safely drop association with Venezuela to reassure these people, without losing significant support from the hard left.

OK, to make my argument tighter:

1. Corbyn was only made leader, and is only supported as leader, by people who want much more radical socialism.

2. Corbyn's only plausible route to power is to sell the public on much more radical socialism. I agree that he isn't succeeding at this and arguably isn't trying. He's also polling more than ten points behind an unpopular and embattled government in the middle of its term.

3. Venezuela was touted as "radical socialism for the modern era" and "radical socialism done right" by [Corbyn and] his entire intellectual circle. He can't repudiate Venezuela without repudiating [himself and] all his supporters. He also probably doesn't want to.

[Hydesland]

-snip-

Well Western governments are in an adversarial relationship with Venezuela so it's hardly unsurprising. If you look at our responses to, say, the King of Saudi Arabia's death whom we're neutral to or possibly an ally of, who by all accounts was terrible for civil rights, I think you'll see it's very courteous.

1. Corbyn is only leader, and is only supported as leader, by people who want much more radical socialism.

Was only supported, to begin with. But these are mostly young hipsters and trade unionists. On the other hand, he did subsequently gain some of the support from some of the working class of the Labour heartlands, who couldn't give a shit about radical socialism.

2. Corbyn's only plausible route to power is to sell the public on much more radical socialism. I agree that he isn't succeeding at this and arguably isn't trying. He's also polling more than ten points behind an unpopular and embattled government in the middle of its term.

I disagree that's a route to power, the radical socialists are too tiny a voting block. Basically, I don't think he has any route to power right now, but what I do think is he could gain support of many in the Labour heartlands, as well as many left leaning liberals who hate conservatives but aren't socialists, and that dropping his most contentious controversies (Venezuela, sectarian links) will help him, even if it does minor damage to his support among radical socialists.

3. Venezuela was touted as "radical socialism for the modern era" and "radical socialism done right" by [Corbyn and] his entire intellectual circle. He can't repudiate Venezuela without repudiating [himself and] all his supporters. He also probably doesn't want to.

Did he actually use those quoted terms?

[Hydesland]

David Cameron says he names birds after Boris Johnson before shooting them

Independent so take it with a HUGE grain of salt, but if true pretty hilarious.

[HMS Vanguard]

-snip-

Well Western governments are in an adversarial relationship with Venezuela so it's hardly unsurprising. If you look at our responses to, say, the King of Saudi Arabia's death whom we're neutral to or possibly an ally of, who by all accounts was terrible for civil rights, I think you'll see it's very courteous.

Clearly it's surprising to you if you predicted the exact opposite before seeing the actual statement. I doubt we praise Wahhabism in statements about dead Saudi rulers either.

1. Corbyn is only leader, and is only supported as leader, by people who want much more radical socialism.

Was only supported, to begin with. But these are mostly young hipsters and trade unionists. On the other hand, he did subsequently gain some of the support from some of the working class of the Labour heartlands, who couldn't give a shit about radical socialism.

Did he? The hipsters put him in power. I'm not going to argue they're smart or practical but they're what he's got.

2. Corbyn's only plausible route to power is to sell the public on much more radical socialism. I agree that he isn't succeeding at this and arguably isn't trying. He's also polling more than ten points behind an unpopular and embattled government in the middle of its term.

I disagree that's a route to power, the radical socialists are too tiny a voting block. Basically, I don't think he has any route to power right now, but what I do think is he could gain support of many in the Labour heartlands, as well as many left leaning liberals who hate conservatives but aren't socialists, and that dropping his most contentious controversies (Venezuela, sectarian links) will help him, even if it does minor damage to his support among radical socialists.

His only route is to make radical socialism popular. It worked for Atlee, so I guess it's possible. I've never said it's a good route or likely to happen; I obviously would not have voted for Corbyn had I been a Labour member who wanted them to win.

3. Venezuela was touted as "radical socialism for the modern era" and "radical socialism done right" by [Corbyn and] his entire intellectual circle. He can't repudiate Venezuela without repudiating [himself and] all his supporters. He also probably doesn't want to.

Did he actually use those quoted terms?

No idea, but they are not quotes I have taken from him. They are what his circle believes, in my view.

[South Park Labourite]

David Cameron says he names birds after Boris Johnson before shooting them

Independent so take it with a HUGE grain of salt, but if true pretty hilarious.

Fuck it I'm believing it in totality. I would do so too.

[Hydesland]

Clearly it's surprising to you if you predicted the exact opposite before seeing the actual statement.

I said leaders around the world, that doesn't mean I was explicitly thinking of the UK or the US.

I doubt we praise Wahhabism in statements about dead Saudi rulers either.

This is what the US president said:

King Abdullah’s life spanned from before the birth of modern Saudi Arabia through its emergence as a critical force within the global economy and a leader among Arab and Islamic nations. He took bold steps in advancing the Arab Peace Initiative, an endeavor that will outlive him as an enduring contribution to the search for peace in the region. At home, King Abdullah's vision was dedicated to the education of his people and to greater engagement with the world.

Clearly fairly praiseworthy of him, without endorsing Wahhabism. I'd say that likewise, Corbyn's tweets while praiseworthy of Chavez didn't explicitly endorse Bolivarian Socialism either, certainly not enough for it to be a deal breaker for a moderate leftist if he later clarifies this.

Did he?

This is my impression, I may be wrong, but I have actually encountered a fair few people not that interested in politics but quite like Corbyn, or regard him as a fairly honest bloke.

His only route is to make radical socialism popular. It worked for Atlee, so I guess it's possible. I've never said it's a good route or likely to happen; I obviously would not have voted for Corbyn had I been a Labour member who wanted them to win.

I don't think Atlee was radical socialist in the sense that Venezuela is radically socialist.

No idea, but they are not quotes I have taken from him. They are what his circle believes, in my view.

But it's unclear Corbyn actually believes that, I'm saying that if he makes it clear that he doesn't actually believe that, it will be more helpful than harmful to him. It's easier for him to defend his tweet and other previous statements, than to actually defend the system of Venezuela, which is not defensible.

[South Park Labourite]

Jack Dromey will be managing the Stoke by-election for Labour. That inspires confidence in me; he is the former Deputy General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union and is a formidable campaigner.

[MERIZoC]

David Cameron says he names birds after Boris Johnson before shooting them

And then he sodomizes them.

[Fartsniffage]

David Cameron says he names birds after Boris Johnson before shooting them

And then he sodomizes them.

Why did the pervert cross the road?

[Ifreann]

David Cameron says he names birds after Boris Johnson before shooting them

Independent so take it with a HUGE grain of salt, but if true pretty hilarious.

The former Tory leader was forced to suspend his country sports when he became Prime Minister, which included deer-stalking and fox-hunting, for fear of courting controversy.

Had to give up pig-fucking too.

[Tananat]

To be fair, the story never was that he fucked a dead pig, he just had his dick in a dead pigs mouth.

[Souseiseki]

To be fair, the story never was that he fucked a dead pig, he just had his dick in a dead pigs mouth.

>the bill clinton defence

e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

[Ifreann]

To be fair, the story never was that he fucked a dead pig, he just had his dick in a dead pigs mouth.

I imagine it's all the same to the pig.

[The Huskar Social Union]

If i come across another link or article about another member of the DUP having ties to the RHI i will be like a giddy schoolgirl.

[Dumb Ideologies]

if i look at your post history and start look for things related to scottish independence what are the odds i'm going to fid sometihng really embarrassing about how the SNP secretely hate the english?

If you treated yourself to feast on my archive you'd find a rich and diverse banquet of post flavours ranging from the borderline coherent to the obnoxiously banterrific. On this topic as on all others.

[Alvecia]

Poor Ireland

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Poor Ireland

So far from God, and so close to the nativist Anglo.

[Ifreann]

Poor Ireland

I still say we should tow the country to the Med.

[Alvecia]

Poor Ireland

I still say we should tow the country to the Med.

Good weather I hear. Might be a bit of a shock to the Irish. Suspect suncream sales would skyrocket.

[Ifreann]

I still say we should tow the country to the Med.

Good weather I hear. Might be a bit of a shock to the Irish. Suspect suncream sales would skyrocket.

It'd revitalise the economy until we naturally grew brown enough to handle the sun. Possibly with the help of our new North African neighbours.

[Frank Zipper]

I wonder why the GCHQ chap has resigned.