87 YO grandma arrested for 'holocaust denial'

[ImperialistSalvia]

If I lived in Germanistan, I'd be tempted to deny the Holocaust just to make a statement ;D

That statement being hurt feelings have no place in the justice system.

Ever heard of the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

It's absolute silliness to be jailing "Holocaust deniers". What threat do they really pose? If anything, it makes me suspicious of the official story that they'd defend it so irrationally. The truth fears no investigation, so let the naysayers find out the gruesome truth for themselves, no? As a Jew and as a Westerner, I'd like for nothing more than the Holocaust to be brought up as seldom as possible. We need to move on as a people, this is insanity

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

That statement being hurt feelings have no place in the justice system.

Ever heard of the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

It's absolute silliness to be jailing "Holocaust deniers". What threat do they really pose? If anything, it makes me suspicious of the official story that they'd defend it so irrationally. The truth fears no investigation, so let the naysayers find out the gruesome truth for themselves, no? As a Jew and as a Westerner, I'd like for nothing more than the Holocaust to be brought up as seldom as possible. We need to move on as a people, this is insanity

The naysayers do not want the truth. They want their own "truth" so that we may have a Grossdeutsches Reich Deutscher Nation again.

[ImperialistSalvia]

Ever heard of the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

It's absolute silliness to be jailing "Holocaust deniers". What threat do they really pose? If anything, it makes me suspicious of the official story that they'd defend it so irrationally. The truth fears no investigation, so let the naysayers find out the gruesome truth for themselves, no? As a Jew and as a Westerner, I'd like for nothing more than the Holocaust to be brought up as seldom as possible. We need to move on as a people, this is insanity

The naysayers do not want the truth. They want their own "truth" so that we may have a Grossdeutsches Reich Deutscher Nation again.

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The naysayers do not want the truth. They want their own "truth" so that we may have a Grossdeutsches Reich Deutscher Nation again.

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

[Salus Maior]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

According to who? Every country has a different definition of what "civil liberty" is.

[Tekeristan]

To preserve the legitimacy of free speech - we must include them as well.

[Fordorsia]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

Yeah this woman is totally planning on bringing Nazi Germany back

[Desadrad]

Shit, I meant to press no. I mean if someone is going to say that the holocaust never happened, then they could use some basic history lessons. But to criminalize this is ridiculous.

[ImperialistSalvia]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

Yeah, let them. They have the right to speak their mind and we have the right to not listen. It's not like once Holocaust denialism is unbanned the Germans will go back to goosestepping.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

According to who? Every country has a different definition of what "civil liberty" is.

I think it's pretty objective, the more authoritarian a country is, the more restrictions imposed on the liberty of its people.

[Novus America]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

Yes. Yes I am. I do not think people should be banned from speaking just because they are biggoted.

Racists get freedom of speech too. An why should only anti-Semitism banned? Why only the Holocaust?

Also, again this ban is counterproductive. It gives holocaust denialists a legitimate political arguement that their speech is being repressed (their core premise of the denial is still a lie, but it gives them a true ancillary issue to cover for it). It makes holocaust denial big political issue people talk about. It gives the Nazis a victim card.

[Desadrad]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

Umm, Stalin? Do you not know of The Great Purge?

[Salus Maior]

According to who? Every country has a different definition of what "civil liberty" is.

I think it's pretty objective, the more authoritarian a country is, the more restrictions imposed on the liberty of its people.

So, every country is authoritarian to some degree then.

[Desadrad]

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

Yes. Yes I am. I do not think people should be banned from speaking just because they are biggoted.

Racists get freedom of speech too. An why should only anti-Semitism banned? Why only the Holocaust?

Also, again this ban is counterproductive. It gives holocaust denialists a legitimate political arguement that their speech is being repressed (their core premise of the denial is still a lie, but it gives them a true ancillary issue to cover for it). It makes holocaust denial big political issue people talk about. It gives the Nazis a victim card.

Ah, the victim card, what was used to trigger the rise of Nationalistic anarchy in Germany.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Shit, I meant to press no. I mean if someone is going to say that the holocaust never happened, then they could use some basic history lessons. But to criminalize this is ridiculous.

They don't need history lessons, they want to erase bits and pieces from history that are highly inconvenient to them to reassume an air of civilization again, and thereby have the possibility of returning to power and recreating the Glorious Pureblood Insert-Preferred-Race-Here Reich again. They add nothing to the intelligible discourse and produces just about as little recognised content to history as intelligent design to biology.
I mean for fucks sake a fifth of the American high school populace thought it possible that the worst crime in the history of mankind has never actually happened.

[ImperialistSalvia]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

According to who? Every country has a different definition of what "civil liberty" is.

According to the Enlightenment thinkers; ie the men who laid the ideological foundations for the modern West

Civil liberties aren't "subjective" in that different governments can define them, in fact that's antithetical to freedom itself

[Neues Nationalsozialistiches Reich]

Then let them, arresting people based on opinion is a huge violation of civil liberties.

So, are you willing to allow these people freely disseminate their open antisemitism? Because that's what Holocaust denialism is really about, making antisemitism "clean" and acceptable to the general masses again by erasing the most terrible (and 100% industrialised) mass murder in history that it's directly responsible for.

They've been disseminating Holocaust denial materials on the Internet for a long time. And the public mood is not exactly condusive to antisemitism.

It is no one's job to stop people from being offended.

[Desadrad]

Shit, I meant to press no. I mean if someone is going to say that the holocaust never happened, then they could use some basic history lessons. But to criminalize this is ridiculous.

They don't need history lessons, they want to erase bits and pieces from history that are highly inconvenient to them to reassume an air of civilization again, and thereby have the possibility of returning to power and recreating the Glorious Pureblood Insert-Preferred-Race-Here Reich again. They add nothing to the intelligible discourse and produces just about as little recognised content to history as intelligent design to biology.
I mean for fucks sake a fifth of the American high school populace thought it possible that the worst crime in the history of mankind has never actually happened.

My bad, sorry.

[Spirit of Hope]

Shit, I meant to press no. I mean if someone is going to say that the holocaust never happened, then they could use some basic history lessons. But to criminalize this is ridiculous.

They don't need history lessons, they want to erase bits and pieces from history that are highly inconvenient to them to reassume an air of civilization again, and thereby have the possibility of returning to power and recreating the Glorious Pureblood Insert-Preferred-Race-Here Reich again. They add nothing to the intelligible discourse and produces just about as little recognised content to history as intelligent design to biology.
I mean for fucks sake a fifth of the American high school populace thought it possible that the worst crime in the history of mankind has never actually happened.

It really isn't that high. As the New York Times noted basically a year later, the actual number of deniers is closer to 2% and 10% for those who may have some doubts. Additionally people not knowing the facts doesn't mean you should silence the opposition, it means you should work harder to better educate the population. The US education system could definitely use some improvements.

[San Lumen]

While I find Holocaust denial awful and despicable its completely inappropriate to ban certain ideas or types of speech you don't like. It someone wants to deny history or say ignorant things that's their right.

[Shofercia]

How do you deny the holocaust at age 87? She was alive during it!

Some do it just to troll. Others are shocked that the Right to Troll exists only in America and a few other countries. Yet others love going around the World saying "we do it this way, so should you!"

70 years ago Germany's government killed 6 million plus undesirables in a very real very terrible violation of human rights. The evidence is fucking everywhere in their country even too today. When somebody stands up, especially someone who was old enough to live through that period of history and flat out lies about what the Nazi party did while in control of the nation it most certainly is considered a threat. For them its not a freedom of speech thing, its almost treason.

It did not do so because some hateful old lady said something stupid. Plus this is not the way to go about it, is there any evidence whatsoever this ban is actually effective?

Arrests like this are only use by the Nazis to gain attention and sympathy. If not for the arrest nobody would have heard about this crazy old Nazi and her ignorant comments. Now everyone is talking about her.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

Not only does it violate freedom of speech (by restricting speech based on content) it is also counterproductive.

If people have sympathy for an arrested Nazi, over Holocaust Denial, all I have to say is:

Many people knew there were labor camps, and that there were terrible conditions in them.

But this was at the time the norm of many countries (the Soviets had them, the Italians had them, the British and Americans at various times used internment camps - yes, I know the US internment camps were much different, but this was hardly known in Germany).

What made the German system so much different was the presence of death camps. This, and some other details, were largely kept in secrecy at the time.

Most Germans did not personally witness the Holocaust, even among those who knew about it.

As such it's entirely feasible for a person -especially someone who was 17 when it ended - to persuade themselves of the - rather idiotic - denialist narrative.

Anyone living in Germany can easily visit a death camp today.

Many people knew there were labor camps, and that there were terrible conditions in them.

But this was at the time the norm of many countries (the Soviets had them, the Italians had them, the British and Americans at various times used internment camps - yes, I know the US internment camps were much different, but this was hardly known in Germany).

What made the German system so much different was the presence of death camps. This, and some other details, were largely kept in secrecy at the time.

Most Germans did not personally witness the Holocaust, even among those who knew about it.

As such it's entirely feasible for a person -especially someone who was 17 when it ended - to persuade themselves of the - rather idiotic - denialist narrative.

I'm not sure about the Second World War, but I know Australia had internment camps in the First World War for German citizens, although as far as I know they weren't particularly in-humane or bad places in general.

A death camp is where 50%, and sometimes as high as 90% of the population died due to inhumane treatment. Hence the name, death camp. The camp's purpose was to work its inhabitants to death. Whereas, the purpose of the labor camp was to maximize production, which required keeping the people alive, and relatively healthy.

[Herargon]

...

...

Seriously? Germany is more free than the US on overall.

And even then, just because there is one bloody single law you disagree with, you want to create deaths in Germany due to war? I'd heavily doubt you'd get that far with such a mindset.

Seriously?

Germany will, as shown here, arrest people for their political opinions.

For the press, Germany has much broader censorship powers than the U.S. does, and generally less robust protections for the press.

For firearms, it is not even close.

The U.S. ranks higher than Germany on many economic freedom scales.

Several German states have obstructed freedom of religion to the point where religious clothing is outlawed.

How exactly is Germany more free?

Economic freedom is only one freedom. And I regard, for example, constant advertising, to not be a great freedom - it might be great for advertisers, but it is annoying.

Keep in mind, Europe is the Old World, not the New World. We're originally not immigrant countries; here the idea is; adapt or do not go there. Period.

And freedom of firearms?! Seriously? The indirect liberty to kill as a citizen is absurd, and not a morally justifiable one. I'd much prefer that that freedom got limited even more.

In the US, you guys might regard freedom as freedom ! = liberty to do anything. In European countries however, that does not go up.
We rather tend to say: freedom ! = liberty to be free where you don't harm or hinder other people in their own freedoms.
And with that regard, I much more prefer that last definition as freedom.


---

Besides, religious clothing is still allowed. You're getting a warped picture of the situation here in Europe. You are still allowed to walk on the streets as a man being a vicar. a man with a yarmulke, or a woman with a hijab.
Europe is just much, much more secular than the US. Seriously.

[Baltenstein]

Keep the education and memorials. Use peer and social pressure. Drop the heavy handed restrictions on free speech. Which again we have no reason to believe actually work. The Tsar tried to ban Communist advocacy, how well did that work?

Germany is not a down-and-out autocracy with a shitload of internal tumoil and currently losing a major war.

Banning something brings more attention to it. Again nobody would have heard of this woman's idiocy but for the ban.

I have already explained that the rationale behind the ban on Holocaust denial in Germany today is not that people think that it will somehow make Neo-Nazis and their agenda go away. But a form of respective remembrance.

[Trumpostan]

It's hilarious how quickly "liberals" will abandon their defense of free speech when it applies to something they dislike.

Like how liberals lambast Colin Kaepernick for his protests and tell him to be a "real American" and stand up for the flag and the anthem?

Oh wait, that is conservatives.

[Jamzmania]

It's hilarious how quickly "liberals" will abandon their defense of free speech when it applies to something they dislike.

Like how liberals lambast Colin Kaepernick for his protests and tell him to be a "real American" and stand up for the flag and the anthem?

Oh wait, that is conservatives.

Yet no one is saying Colin Kaepernick should be jailed.