The Ancap-Ancom Divide.

[Ripoll]

No, it's rational. How can private ownership of the means of production go hand in hand with communal ownership and democratic work places? Who owns the workers, and what entity embodies the capital?

And aren't there some crazy anarchists who want to get rid of money altogether?

It will depend upon the community you live in. Some will be communes, others markets

Or you could live in the wilderness and not deal with people. Your call.

Also, money that is run by FIAT would be abolished. Crypto currencies, precious metals, ammunition, drugs, and other valuable goods would replace it.

Also: NO ONE OWNS WORKERS OTHER THAN THEMSELVES.

the worker would work in a job market, or in a commune. Whatever they want

...that's ridiculous, and are we just going to completely ignore interconnected markets?

Also all money is fiat. http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalemman ... iat-money/

It's all based off of trust, and their value is whatever the people make it out to be. If by fiat you meant paper, well paper is just in all reality really efficient and much more practical than the rest. Gold and other limited currencies just limit the ability for the money supply to grow and lead to deflationary cycles that impoverish the middle class.

If what you said in this instance alone is true, that's reason enough for sensible people who actually understand how our society works to just drop the idea of anarchism all together.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

I apologize, but how exactly does a free market community support hierarchy?

You hire me to do a job. You are my boss and above me in the hierarchy.

Compensating me for my time, and the fact that this is a voluntary, mutually beneficial arrangement is irrelevant. All bosses are like Hitler and Stalin rolled into one, and a much greater enemy than the state.

Well I am ok with having a boss. If he or she likes my work and I like what they pay me, what is wrong with that?

In my community, everyone is ok with this. That is why we moved there. Would you use force to stop this?

[Atlanticatia]

I think the biggest issue with anarchism is..

what do we do about climate change and public health?

Sometimes we might need to do things like regulate emissions from cars, place a price on carbon, ban carbon or deep sea oil drilling, ban incandescent light bulbs, regulate pollution, have the state invest in renewable energy, etc etc. Climate change is the huge threat..we can't afford to have no State when we need to do something to combat climate change.

Another issue is public health. What if we never placed taxes and minimum prices on cigarettes, or banned smoking in public places? There have been huge declines in smoking rates because of actions by governments. An ancap, or ancom, society isn't going to mandate plain packaging of cigarettes or force up the price of cigarettes.
Take vaccinations for example, as that's currently a big problem, where anti-vaxxers don't vaccinate kids. The state might have to make vaccinating kids compulsory if they want to start school; we don't have time to be whining about "muh freedomz", when kids might die from measles because some parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because of a 'personal belief'.

That's, in my opinion, the biggest issue. Things that we don't really have the ability to just ignore and leave it up to voluntarism. Sometimes we need coercion if it is necessary to protect the rights of others (i.e. right to life), the environment, etc.

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

If you're a parent, and you don't vaccinate your children before they go to school, that's borderline child abuse and you're endangering not just your child's, but other children's right to life. In some communities, 'herd immunity' has been lost and kids are becoming infected with life-threatening measles, because many parents have chosen not to vaccinate their kids. Kids could die because "you have the right to say no to vaccinating your children."

As I said before, coercion is necessary sometimes - to protect public health, to protect the environment, etc. If climate change would be mitigated by 'community programs', hundreds of thousands of people wouldn't be marching for governments to do something about climate change. We might need to coerce companies not to use fracking to get oil out of the ground, we might need to coerce car companies to raise fuel efficiency, we might need to coerce people not to buy incandescent lightbulbs, we might need to coerce companies to pay for the carbon they pollute. We can't just wait around for 'community programs' to allow us to reach carbon neutrality in a few decades.

[Threlizdun]

There's nothing to unite over. "Anarcho-capitalists" support authoritarian, hierarchal societies and utilize tactics counter to our interests. They aren't anarchists and we share no common ground with them accept for opposition to the state. Yes, anarchists should unify, but this naturally doesn't concern those who aren't anarchists.

I apologize, but how exactly does a free market community support hierarchy?

Lets say I leave your community, gather a sufficient number of like minded people, and settle a voluntaryist town. What stops me from doing that in your anarchist land?

The market in and of itself need not be hierarchal, as systems such as mutualism demonstrate, but they certainly aren't ideal. There are no reasons market-based economies can't exist in anarchism, but that wasn't what I said. I said capitalism is incompatible with anarchism, as anarchism has always defined itself as vehemently anti capitalist in nature, seeing the system as authoritarian and accepting the undeniable fact that it's hierarchal. There are social classes, with those above dominating those below. The capitalist class exploits the working class. Such a society is violent, authoritarian, and obviously built on hierarchies. No, "anarcho-capitalists" do not exist as an anarchist ideology. What they are advocating for isn't even capitalism either, as capitalism necessitates a state. What they are calling for is impossible to describe as anything but neo-feudalism. Sure, it's anti-statist, but only because it wants to revert us to something even worse than the state.

[Natapoc]

Anarchist schools can unite but Ancap is not a school of anarchism.

So yes to your poll but not for the reasons you think. Capitalism and anarchy cannot coexist because anarchism is opposed to Capitalism by definition.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

It will depend upon the community you live in. Some will be communes, others markets

Or you could live in the wilderness and not deal with people. Your call.

Also, money that is run by FIAT would be abolished. Crypto currencies, precious metals, ammunition, drugs, and other valuable goods would replace it.

Also: NO ONE OWNS WORKERS OTHER THAN THEMSELVES.

the worker would work in a job market, or in a commune. Whatever they want

...that's ridiculous, and are we just going to completely ignore interconnected markets?

Also all money is fiat. http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalemman ... iat-money/

It's all based off of trust, and their value is whatever the people make it out to be. If by fiat you meant paper, well paper is just in all reality really efficient and much more practical than the rest. Gold and other limited currencies just limit the ability for the money supply to grow and lead to deflationary cycles that impoverish the middle class.

If what you said in this instance alone is true, that's reason enough for sensible people who actually understand how our society works to just drop the idea of anarchism all together.

People have used gold for thousands of years as currency. Your god, government, does not magically give a currency legitimacy by granting its blessing. Value is subjective.

And no, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat implies a government forcing it down my throat.

I can give my neighbor some tomatos for some weed, and he can trade those tomatos for some gold, and so on.

[Ripoll]

I think the biggest issue with anarchism is..

what do we do about climate change and public health?

Sometimes we might need to do things like regulate emissions from cars, place a price on carbon, ban carbon or deep sea oil drilling, ban incandescent light bulbs, regulate pollution, have the state invest in renewable energy, etc etc. Climate change is the huge threat..we can't afford to have no State when we need to do something to combat climate change.

Another issue is public health. What if we never placed taxes and minimum prices on cigarettes, or banned smoking in public places? There have been huge declines in smoking rates because of actions by governments. An ancap, or ancom, society isn't going to mandate plain packaging of cigarettes or force up the price of cigarettes.
Take vaccinations for example, as that's currently a big problem, where anti-vaxxers don't vaccinate kids. The state might have to make vaccinating kids compulsory if they want to start school; we don't have time to be whining about "muh freedomz", when kids might die from measles because some parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because of a 'personal belief'.

That's, in my opinion, the biggest issue. Things that we don't really have the ability to just ignore and leave it up to voluntarism. Sometimes we need coercion if it is necessary to protect the rights of others (i.e. right to life), the environment, etc.

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

1) so your solution is we will fix the environment after we destroy it? Nah, I think a tax on carbon footprints and some mandatory form of environmental review is a better idea.

2) Smoking violates the health of potential offspring and they never had a say on your decision to poison them.

3) No, you do not have the right to reintroduce small pox into society because "mah bodily sovereignty is at risk for taking harmless medicine thatwill only protect me and keep our society functional and disease free"

[Sibirsky]

You hire me to do a job. You are my boss and above me in the hierarchy.

Compensating me for my time, and the fact that this is a voluntary, mutually beneficial arrangement is irrelevant. All bosses are like Hitler and Stalin rolled into one, and a much greater enemy than the state.

Well I am ok with having a boss. If he or she likes my work and I like what they pay me, what is wrong with that?

In my community, everyone is ok with this. That is why we moved there. Would you use force to stop this?

Nothing is wrong with it. That's why we're capitalists. Bosses, and workplaces are the very few people and places where authority over us is legitimate.

But communists don't like wage labor, and see this as a hierarchy, and are against it.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

I apologize, but how exactly does a free market community support hierarchy?

Lets say I leave your community, gather a sufficient number of like minded people, and settle a voluntaryist town. What stops me from doing that in your anarchist land?

The market in and of itself need not be hierarchal, as systems such as mutualism demonstrate, but they certainly aren't ideal. There are no reasons market-based economies can't exist in anarchism, but that wasn't what I said. I said capitalism is incompatible with anarchism, as anarchism has always defined itself as vehemently anti capitalist in nature, seeing the system as authoritarian and accepting the undeniable fact that it's hierarchal. There are social classes, with those above dominating those below. The capitalist class exploits the working class. Such a society is violent, authoritarian, and obviously built on hierarchies. No, "anarcho-capitalists" do not exist as an anarchist ideology. What they are advocating for isn't even capitalism either, as capitalism necessitates a state. What they are calling for is impossible to describe as anything but neo-feudalism. Sure, it's anti-statist, but only because it wants to revert us to something even worse than the state.

But.... no one is forced to do anything. I fail to see any sort of immorality in this.

[Ripoll]

...that's ridiculous, and are we just going to completely ignore interconnected markets?

Also all money is fiat. http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalemman ... iat-money/

It's all based off of trust, and their value is whatever the people make it out to be. If by fiat you meant paper, well paper is just in all reality really efficient and much more practical than the rest. Gold and other limited currencies just limit the ability for the money supply to grow and lead to deflationary cycles that impoverish the middle class.

If what you said in this instance alone is true, that's reason enough for sensible people who actually understand how our society works to just drop the idea of anarchism all together.

People have used gold for thousands of years as currency. Your god, government, does not magically give a currency legitimacy by granting its blessing. Value is subjective.

And no, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat implies a government forcing it down my throat.

I can give my neighbor some tomatos for some weed, and he can trade those tomatos for some gold, and so on.

And it wasn't all that great when it was used. It doesn't neccessarily hjave to be Government to be fiat, it can be anything taking the place of Government as well or any form of law or regulation.

A gold standard for essence, would still be fiat currency. For as long as civilization has exited, fiat currency has existed.

So in other words, you think we should return to a barter system?

[Fanosolia]

I think the biggest issue with anarchism is..

what do we do about climate change and public health?

Sometimes we might need to do things like regulate emissions from cars, place a price on carbon, ban carbon or deep sea oil drilling, ban incandescent light bulbs, regulate pollution, have the state invest in renewable energy, etc etc. Climate change is the huge threat..we can't afford to have no State when we need to do something to combat climate change.

Another issue is public health. What if we never placed taxes and minimum prices on cigarettes, or banned smoking in public places? There have been huge declines in smoking rates because of actions by governments. An ancap, or ancom, society isn't going to mandate plain packaging of cigarettes or force up the price of cigarettes.
Take vaccinations for example, as that's currently a big problem, where anti-vaxxers don't vaccinate kids. The state might have to make vaccinating kids compulsory if they want to start school; we don't have time to be whining about "muh freedomz", when kids might die from measles because some parents don't want to vaccinate their kids because of a 'personal belief'.

That's, in my opinion, the biggest issue. Things that we don't really have the ability to just ignore and leave it up to voluntarism. Sometimes we need coercion if it is necessary to protect the rights of others (i.e. right to life), the environment, etc.

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

So, instead of preparing, (something that both the private and public sector should do) is wait for that? That's sort of a big crash don't you think?

[Norstal]

I am a Voluntaryist/Anarcho-Capitalist/Agorist, whatever. I have been active at discussing my view, and like to make people (especially statists) question their viewpoints.

I love debating Anarcho Communists and Syndicalists because we wind up agreeing 99% of the time. I have many great Ancom friends.

Yet, there is a brutal divide in the anarchist school of thought between Ancoms and Ancaps. Add in the other anarchist schools and it becomes positively ridiculous the amount of infighting.

YET, I do not see why there is any. A true anarchist feels no need for a state.

Therefore, all of us would form communities based upon voluntary association, then trade amongst each other. Or stay away from each other. Doesn't really matter which.

So why all the infighting? We are friends are we not? Our common enemy is the state. Without it, we are free.

I find it funny that your ancom friends don't tell you ancap isn't anarchism.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

So, instead of preparing, (something that both the private and public sector should do) is wait for that? That's sort of a big crash don't you think?

Peak oil will be a slow increase in oil prices, maiking it more economically viable to use green energy.

If you actually research peak oil, you will see that it is a bell curve: prices slowly increase.

[SaintB]

I think anarcho-anything is flawed and a bad idea.

[Sibirsky]

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

1) so your solution is we will fix the environment after we destroy it? Nah, I think a tax on carbon footprints and some mandatory form of environmental review is a better idea.

2) Smoking violates the health of potential offspring and they never had a say on your decision to poison them.

3) No, you do not have the right to reintroduce small pox into society because "mah bodily sovereignty is at risk for taking harmless medicine thatwill only protect me and keep our society functional and disease free"

1. That's not what (s)he said.

Taxes work well, in making us worse off.

2. What the fuck are you talking about? "Potential offspring" are just that. Potential. They are not real and do not get to restrict anyone else's rights. If/when (s)he decides to have children it would be a good idea to stop smoking, but still none of your fucking business.

3. You ok? You sound like you need help. You, the government or anyone else has no right to force anything into his or her body. Get over it.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

People have used gold for thousands of years as currency. Your god, government, does not magically give a currency legitimacy by granting its blessing. Value is subjective.

And no, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat implies a government forcing it down my throat.

I can give my neighbor some tomatos for some weed, and he can trade those tomatos for some gold, and so on.

And it wasn't all that great when it was used. It doesn't neccessarily hjave to be Government to be fiat, it can be anything taking the place of Government as well or any form of law or regulation.

A gold standard for essence, would still be fiat currency. For as long as civilization has exited, fiat currency has existed.

So in other words, you think we should return to a barter system?

People have every right to use whatever they want as currency.

[Ripoll]

So, instead of preparing, (something that both the private and public sector should do) is wait for that? That's sort of a big crash don't you think?

Peak oil will be a slow increase in oil prices, maiking it more economically viable to use green energy.

If you actually research peak oil, you will see that it is a bell curve: prices slowly increase.

So again, waiting for decades after it is pretty much irreversible to begin to do anything and just allow the market to naturally correct itself. Or we can do what we do now and incentivize companies to go green, and give tax breaks to companies that practice sustainability and tax carbon footprints.

[Norstal]

And it wasn't all that great when it was used. It doesn't neccessarily hjave to be Government to be fiat, it can be anything taking the place of Government as well or any form of law or regulation.

A gold standard for essence, would still be fiat currency. For as long as civilization has exited, fiat currency has existed.

So in other words, you think we should return to a barter system?

People have every right to use whatever they want as currency.

So what happens when the shop doesn't want to give me something for my rocks?

[Conglomerate of Iron]

1) so your solution is we will fix the environment after we destroy it? Nah, I think a tax on carbon footprints and some mandatory form of environmental review is a better idea.

2) Smoking violates the health of potential offspring and they never had a say on your decision to poison them.

3) No, you do not have the right to reintroduce small pox into society because "mah bodily sovereignty is at risk for taking harmless medicine thatwill only protect me and keep our society functional and disease free"

1. That's not what (s)he said.

Taxes work well, in making us worse off.

2. What the fuck are you talking about? "Potential offspring" are just that. Potential. They are not real and do not get to restrict anyone else's rights. If/when (s)he decides to have children it would be a good idea to stop smoking, but still none of your fucking business.

3. You ok? You sound like you need help. You, the government or anyone else has no right to force anything into his or her body. Get over it.

You get gold star for helping my argument!


Team anarchy go!

[Sibirsky]

People have used gold for thousands of years as currency. Your god, government, does not magically give a currency legitimacy by granting its blessing. Value is subjective.

And no, not all currencies are fiat. Fiat implies a government forcing it down my throat.

I can give my neighbor some tomatos for some weed, and he can trade those tomatos for some gold, and so on.

And it wasn't all that great when it was used. It doesn't neccessarily hjave to be Government to be fiat, it can be anything taking the place of Government as well or any form of law or regulation.

A gold standard for essence, would still be fiat currency. For as long as civilization has exited, fiat currency has existed.

So in other words, you think we should return to a barter system?

The gold standard is not fiat. (S)he said nothing of the barter system.

[Sibirsky]

1) the environment would be protected through voluntary community led programs, or a free market.

Once peak oil hits, and oil prices skyrocket, green tech will be boosted massively.

2) i have a right to smoke WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT.

I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO VACCCINES OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF BS THE GOVERNMENTWANTS TO PUT IN MY BODY.

so no, no government or person has a right to tell me what to do with my body. I have a right to my body.

So, instead of preparing, (something that both the private and public sector should do) is wait for that? That's sort of a big crash don't you think?

That would be the big push, but we wouldn't wait for it. And there would be no crash. Early to market technologies would be valuable and profitable too.

[Ripoll]

And it wasn't all that great when it was used. It doesn't neccessarily hjave to be Government to be fiat, it can be anything taking the place of Government as well or any form of law or regulation.

A gold standard for essence, would still be fiat currency. For as long as civilization has exited, fiat currency has existed.

So in other words, you think we should return to a barter system?

People have every right to use whatever they want as currency.

How would corporations even function then? What right do cashiers have to barter with their company's retail products? Barter is an awful system and this will severely lower demand, hurt business, and cause painful deflationary cycles.

[Conglomerate of Iron]

People have every right to use whatever they want as currency.

So what happens when the shop doesn't want to give me something for my rocks?

Sounds like a "You" problem.

Go find some alcohol or a good that is worth something.

[Atlanticatia]

Taxes work well, in making us worse off.

When you raise taxes on cigarettes, people smoke less.

When you place a tax on carbon and raise it progressively, companies pollute less carbon.

Less smoking, less pollution, what's not to like?

[Sibirsky]

I am a Voluntaryist/Anarcho-Capitalist/Agorist, whatever. I have been active at discussing my view, and like to make people (especially statists) question their viewpoints.

I love debating Anarcho Communists and Syndicalists because we wind up agreeing 99% of the time. I have many great Ancom friends.

Yet, there is a brutal divide in the anarchist school of thought between Ancoms and Ancaps. Add in the other anarchist schools and it becomes positively ridiculous the amount of infighting.

YET, I do not see why there is any. A true anarchist feels no need for a state.

Therefore, all of us would form communities based upon voluntary association, then trade amongst each other. Or stay away from each other. Doesn't really matter which.

So why all the infighting? We are friends are we not? Our common enemy is the state. Without it, we are free.

I find it funny that your ancom friends don't tell you ancap isn't anarchism.

Yes, it is.