Green Guilt

[Lysanders]

I thought this was an extremely interesting article, and I would be extremely interested in seeing how people take it. I imagine there will be a great deal of people who take offense at the idea of environmentalism being likened to religious faith, but it certainly strikes true to me. I am familiar with Nietzsche and his ideas, and I have long had similar thoughts about certain secular causes, but I never really made connection.

http://chronicle.com/article/Green-Guilt/63447/

I personally believe the western shame the author points to is far less inevitable than he wishes to make it seem. I don't believe that it is a necessary part of being civilized. There is a Sherlock Holmes quote where he states that modesty is no more a virtue than boastfulness, and I think this applies here. There is no reason we must accept shame and guilt in order to be civilized.

But enough of my rambling, do you agree that western shame built through traditional Christian values has lead to certain secular causes like environmentalism (at least amongst the very devoted?

[Blouman Empire]

Interesting concept, though it is probably more a case of what happens in most groups of people the person who is different is made to feel like an outcast until they conform.

[Lysanders]

Interesting concept, though it is probably more a case of what happens in most groups of people the person who is different is made to feel like an outcast until they conform.

True, but that doesn't explain how that person becomes outcast in the first place.

[Urzamalandi]

from UK > USA > Australia > West Indies

UK and Australia are mad on environment and keeping it all green, USA makes itself fussed enough to appear proactive but seems to care very little really... Where i am now (Caribbean, West Indies), where it's needed most... We don't even have facilities to recycle aluminum here! I spent the last few years being all careful about recycling everything possible in all the multi-coloured trash cans and now i just have to chuck it all in the same black plastic bag.

I do get 2 garbage collections a week too... Down to bi-weekly in my previous English residence or so i'm told.

[Blouman Empire]

Interesting concept, though it is probably more a case of what happens in most groups of people the person who is different is made to feel like an outcast until they conform.

True, but that doesn't explain how that person becomes outcast in the first place.

Well because they have been brought up that they must be green and that in order to be a good person you must be green those that don't do it are made to feel like an outcast because it isn't the norm and people have been brainwashed that to be different is bad and to not be green is bad. We still see it happening today from fashion to exterme greenies who are pushing for more and more luxries to be taken away.

[Errinundera]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

I remember Penn Jillette said that he never understood why the guilt needed to be there. If it turns out some of our practices harmed the environment, why couldn't we just do something about the problem without feeling guilty for our own Darwinian success?

[Panzerjaeger]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

[Errinundera]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

How many Christian religions are democratic?

[Panzerjaeger]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

How many Christian religions are democratic?

Democratic? Christianity is a Religion and not a System of Governance. If you mean rule by decree like the Papacy most aren't.

Also Democracy does not equal Egalitarianism that is moving the goal posts.

[Blouman Empire]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

How many Christian religions are democratic?

Last I checked the Pope got voted in.

[Allbeama]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

How many Christian religions are democratic?

Democratic? Christianity is a Religion and not a System of Governance. If you mean rule by decree like the Papacy most aren't.

Also Democracy does not equal Egalitarianism that is moving the goal posts.

Most Christianity refers to sheep and shepherds. Hardly sounds egalitarian to me. Inherent in the idea is there is the Masses that need to be led and an elite group of spiritually "superior" people that have some authority to exert over said masses. That is not in the spirit of egalitarianism. It is authoritarianism.

[Panzerjaeger]

Couple of details points I disagree with in the article.

1) Christianity is egalitarian? Yeah, sure. Tell the pope and his cronies that.

2) The writer is surprised that children see animals as the equal of humans. In an godless universe no creature has a greater "right" to exist than any other. For sure, I have power over my pet cat but I don't have any superior moral existence.

Catholicism and the Papacy does not equal Christianity.

How many Christian religions are democratic?

Democratic? Christianity is a Religion and not a System of Governance. If you mean rule by decree like the Papacy most aren't.

Also Democracy does not equal Egalitarianism that is moving the goal posts.

Most Christianity refers to sheep and shepherds. Hardly sounds egalitarian to me. Inherent in the idea is there is the Masses that need to be lead and an elite group of spiritually superior people that have some authority to exert over said masses. That is not in the spirit of egalitarianism. It is authoritarianism.

So wrong but I'm not going to bother going at it and derailing this thread further.

[Dragontide]

Another attack on Gore. Typical.

What is the religion connection between Joseph Fourier discovering greenhouse effect science 180 years ago, a continuation of the research that had a Harvard professor ask Al Gore back in the 70s to keep an eye on the climate and the Gore pointing out the obvious with a film?

What is religious about opening up green think tanks and new factories to create green products?

It's pretty easy to feel guilty now that the costs of climate change damage has skyrocketed.

[JJ Place]

I remember Penn Jillette said that he never understood why the guilt needed to be there. If it turns out some of our practices harmed the environment, why couldn't we just do something about the problem without feeling guilty for our own Darwinian success?

Alot has to do with governmental control and Big Buisness capitalizing on false "Green Gimckes". Corrupt big buisness buys into the government and vice-verse, leading to larger government and bigger buisness, as well as regulations on competion for the big buisness, all in favor of "Helping the Planet" as an excuse. Don't get me wrong, I'm for 100% no regulations on buisness, no government, and a clean and healthy envirment, it's all good for the human race. This is just another tactic to help the eilite stay in power, true "Envirmental Green" will only come when private indivuals start accually caring about our envirment.

[Barringtonia]

There's a difference between guilt and shame, and there is the idea that the West is a guilt-based society and the East is a shame-based society.

I'm not sure it can fully be explained by Christian values, and I wonder how much guilt-based society is a relatively recent phenomenon, a product of individualism and urbanisation over the last 2-300 years.

Where one is not tightly knitted into an extended family, where duties and responsibilities to those family members is deeply ingrained, then we lose the shame of letting down those members, we can only really let down ourselves and that induces guilt rather than shame, which requires a sense of duty to others.

I'd be interested to see studies of guilt levels in more rural areas compared to cities, let's face it, many of the fads come from cities, where often the individual is actually divorced from the reality of what they're guilty about, say animal welfare when they've never seen a live chicken.

I suspect it's much a reflection of an emptiness that comes with individualism, that we project that onto society as a whole and seek failings we want to redresss.

[Lysanders]

Interesting concept, though it is probably more a case of what happens in most groups of people the person who is different is made to feel like an outcast until they conform.

True, but that doesn't explain how that person becomes outcast in the first place.

Well because they have been brought up that they must be green and that in order to be a good person you must be green those that don't do it are made to feel like an outcast because it isn't the norm and people have been brainwashed that to be different is bad and to not be green is bad. We still see it happening today from fashion to exterme greenies who are pushing for more and more luxries to be taken away.

That still doesn't trace things back to the origin. Again there must be some reason that people were brought up to be green, and anyways, this seems to be the first or second generation to really feel green guilt.

Another attack on Gore. Typical.

What is the religion connection between Joseph Fourier discovering greenhouse effect science 180 years ago, a continuation of the research that had a Harvard professor ask Al Gore back in the 70s to keep an eye on the climate and the Gore pointing out the obvious with a film?

What is religious about opening up green think tanks and new factories to create green products?

I hardly see his point of view as being unfair to Gore or to climate research.

It's pretty easy to feel guilty now that the costs of climate change damage has skyrocketed.

What are the costs of climate change, and why should we feel guilty about it?

[Dragontide]

I hardly see his point of view as being unfair to Gore or to climate research.

Then you missed that where is says:

There are also high priests of the new religion, with Al Gore ("the Goracle") playing an especially prophetic role.

What are the costs of climate change, and why should we feel guilty about it?

Fires harder to combat due to drought becoming more extreme. Bigger hurricanes to clean up after. Arnold Schwarzenegger screaming "Ve Vant Vater!!!" and wanting to build a new canal in California (a project that would be bigger than the Panama Canal project)
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080619_climatereport.html

Among the major findings reported in this assessment are that droughts, heavy downpours, excessive heat, and intense hurricanes are likely to become more commonplace as humans continue to increase the atmospheric concentrations of heat-trapping greenhouse gases.

It adds up quick.

[Natapoc]

The experiences of the author seem very atypical. They are either greatly exaggerated for dramatic effect or he lives in a very special place.

What he or she describes is more a reflection of the people he or she hangs out with than society at large.