School shootings and gang violence

[United Marxist Nations]

I think the Swiss model of gun-ownership is probably best.

[Greed and Death]

So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:

http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html

Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.

The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.

What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.

The problem they run into is statistically gun violence has been on the decline for decades, so of course they will do what every they can to inflate their numbers.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:

http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html

Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.

The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.

What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.

The problem they run into is statistically gun violence has been on the decline for decades, so of course they will do what every they can to inflate their numbers.

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

[Greed and Death]

Source: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/index.html

"Total
murders"
2007 14831
2008 14180
2009 13636
2010 12996
2011 12664

"Total
firearms"
2007 10086
2008 9484
2009 9146
2010 8775
2011 8583

Handguns
2007 7361
2008 6755
2009 6452
2010 6009
2011 6220

Rifles
2007 450
2008 375
2009 348
2010 358
2011 323

Shotguns
2007 455
2008 444
2009 418
2010 373
2011 356

"Firearms
(type
unknown)"
2007 1820
2008 1910
2009 1928
2010 2035
2011 1684

"Knives or
cutting
instruments"
2007 1796
2008 1897
2009 1825
2010 1704
2011 1694

"Other
weapons"
2007 2095
2008 1938
2009 1864
2010 1772
2011 1659

"Hands, fists,
feet, etc."
2007 854
2008 861
2009 801
2010 745
2011 728

Note the downward trend.

Edit: and gun sales (thus ownership) have been incresing aof late, yet there is NO corresponding increase in gun- crime or fatalities. http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... s-plummet/

Using the primary sources from your articles
specifically: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

In 2004, among state prison inmates who possessed a gun at the time of offense, 40% obtained their firearm from an illegal source.
Therefore, 60% were presumably using legally purchased firearms?

Approx 70-80% of all firearm homicides between the assessed years (93-11) were committed with a handgun. --- Does anyone use these for hunting or sport shooting??

Firearm violence accounted for about 70% of all homicides in the time period assessed.

For both fatal and nonfatal firearm victimizations, the majority of the decline occurred during the 10-year period from 1993 to 2002. -- Wasn't this during a period of higher gun controls? (Brady bill or something?)

There are several target shooting contest throughout the US with a handgun event it is also an Olympic sport. Also during hunting you use a pistol to put an animal out of its misery if you have wounded it.

As for 1993 to 2002 what tighter gun control ? You mean the assault weapons ban ? That was from 1994 to 2004 so the decline does not exactly line up with the legal effect. Also assault weapons are so rarely used in crime that I doubt it made a difference.

Now there was loosening of gun control at the state level that started in 1994 when the Republicans came to power in many states they had not held power in since reconstruction.

[Geilinor]

It doesn't matter whether the shooting is seemingly random or not. The targets of individual-on-individual violence do not deserve what happens to them.

[Greed and Death]

The problem they run into is statistically gun violence has been on the decline for decades, so of course they will do what every they can to inflate their numbers.

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

Though if you are going to count a principal's wife who is an adult, likely highly educated, and with no criminal record as someone that must be kept from guns I begin to question who you would allow to have a gun.

[Geilinor]

I think the Swiss model of gun-ownership is probably best.

That would only work if we introduced conscription.

[United Marxist Nations]

I think the Swiss model of gun-ownership is probably best.

That would only work if we introduced conscription.

I think it could be modified; like a "voluntary conscription with mandatory training".

EDIT: What I'm describing is kind of the model laid out in Lenin's "A Proletarian Militia."

[The Remnants of Kobol]

¹ Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"
²"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders in ³.
⁴However gang-related shootings have a different motivation, and although they are indeed a serious problem, they should not be lumped in with other "school shootings" just to inflate the numbers. That is a very dishonest to say the least. As for it being racist, why? Because the fact is that most gang members are minorities? Fact is fact. Calling it racist is nothing more than an attempt to obscure the truth.

Now on to your reply to me:
1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime. It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".

2:If a gun owner knowingly sell a gun to a felon, he has already committed a crime, thus does not fall under law-abiding. Not storing gun so as to make it harder to steal is stupid on many levels. It is both dangerous and a very good way to lose a fairly valuable/expensive piece of property.

Gun owners are already liable for damage caused by their guns. Once sold (or stolen) they no longer own the gun and should not be held liable for it's use or misuse.

1.) You keep complaining about using words to skew data, yet you're doing it yourself. BY DEFINITION, NO LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN WILL COMMIT MURDER. Please stop using that phrase when comparing to gun crimes. Obviously the ratio will be zero to whatever number you compare.

2.) You want to talk ease of getting a gun? Private sale. Cash, no name, no background check, nothing. 100% legal to do. Those are the places where most criminals get their guns.

3.) Yet I don't know anyone but myself who properly stores a firearm. Of everyone I know who owns firearms (well over 20 people), I'm the only one who has a safe. Everyone else just shoves them under their bed, puts them in a storage unit, displays them in a glass case, etc. It is stupid that no one has proper storage for a firearm, but I would guess it is because a safe will often cost more than any firearm put in it.

4.) Not all regulation is the evil government coming to take your guns, neuter you, put stuff in your drinking water to control your thoughts, and then send you to a death camp for having bad thoughts (the secret plan explained to me by one open carry rally person). For example, one very simple thing that could be done is to add $10 to the price of every gun sale and throw in a gun lock. That would potentially stop countless accidental deaths. Another thing would be to make it mandatory to take a firearms safety class before ownership. No test that you can fail, simply like a mandatory reading of the instruction manual.

I support intelligent and safe gun ownership. The Second Amendment protects your right to bear arms. Not your right to be stupid with those arms or put other people in danger. As determined by the Supreme Court, your rights end at the point that you start infringing on other people's rights.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

Though if you are going to count a principal's wife who is an adult, likely highly educated, and with no criminal record as someone that must be kept from guns I begin to question who you would allow to have a gun.

I didn't say any such thing. I simply stated that these were school shootings. Please address actual points being made, not ones that you find easier to address.

[Imperializt Russia]

So I was reading some random articles on the internet, and I came across this:

http://news.yahoo.com/how-many-school-shootings-since-sandy-hook-150152463.html

Basically, some gun control advocates compiled a list of school shootings since Sandy Hook, and some conservative types who don't like the gun-control agenda are arguing that they inflated their numbers by including gang-related shootings and other cases where the shooting was personal.

The big "school shooting" news stories tend to revolve around shootings where someone took a gun into a school and started killing people at random, but I don't see why gang violence in schools should be treated differently. It's still someone bringing a gun to school and shooting people. A lot of people die needlessly as a result of gang violence, and we shouldn't be writing that off as if schools have no responsibility to prevent it from happening on school grounds.

What does NSG make of this? Does it make sense to put gang-related shootings in a separate category from other school shootings? Why do you think people are arguing that gang-related shootings are not "real" school shootings? Subconscious racism might play a role since gang violence disproportionately affects minorities, but other explanations are welcome.

Four hundred or so children are shot each year as a result of gang violence ("juvenile gangland violence" as categorised by the FBI), and yet until 2010, only about 28 people a year died on school property or at school events. Often not even children, but critically only thirteen of these would be shootings (between 1999 and 2010, 284 people died on K-12 school property or at K-12 school events, of which 130 were shooting fatalities).

I'd say both sides are bigging up something that isn't happening.

Reading the article, what has happened is that the group has used the phrase "school shooting" to sensationalise the incidents, by conflating them with images of Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech and Columbine.

Mass school shootings, such as those three, have occurred seven times according to the rebuttal.
"School shootings", a discharge on a school, are an incredibly different event that is related only to mass school shootings by location. Of those 130 shootings I mentioned, the vast majority are single-fatality shootings, many of them suicides. A limited number are murder-suicides. Multiple homicide shootings on K-12 property or events are exceedingly rare.

[Tule]

Defining a school shooting as a shooting at a school is pretty straightforward. Schools are full of children¹, they should not have shootings. Gang related or otherwise.

Defining a mass shooting as an event where a large number of people are shot is also pretty straight forward, saying that these events are bad is an understatement.²

A mass murder is a whole different category of crime that is simply defined as the murder of 4 people or more in one location over a short period. Mass murders can be school shootings, but they can also be arsons for example.³

School shootings are very serious, so are mass shootings. Something should be done to stop them and saying that they don't count because they are gang related is absurd, insensitive and suspiciously close to being racist.⁴



1) The line between criminals and law-abiding citizens is very fuzzy. Current federal law does not for instance prohibit people with a drinking problem from buying guns, even though alcohol abuse is an extremely big risk factor for committing murder.

Then there is the simple fact that nobody is completely law-abiding. Anyone who has ever jaywalked, pissed in public, been drunk in public, watched porn before the age of 18 etc. is a criminal.

Also, law-abiding citizens do commit murder. Not as often as career criminals, but thousands of people do die every year in America at the hands of "law-abiding gun owners", and reducing the number of guns in the hands of law abiding gun owners does reduce the rate of gun deaths.

2) Criminals will never be completely prevented from obtaining guns, but most of the guns they own originate from law abiding entities. Smith & Wesson does not have a secret black market factory. FFL's do not sell guns to convicted felons directly. But at some point the "law-abiding gun owner" sells a gun knowingly/recklessly to a prohibited person or recklessly stores the gun in a way that makes it easy to steal.

Mandating proper storage of firearms and holding gun owners liable for any damage their guns cause will reduce the flow of legal guns to prohibited persons. That's where supply and demand comes in. Fewer illegal guns = higher prices = fewer criminals buying guns = fewer people getting shot.

¹ Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"
²"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders in ³.
⁴However gang-related shootings have a different motivation, and although they are indeed a serious problem, they should not be lumped in with other "school shootings" just to inflate the numbers. That is a very dishonest to say the least. As for it being racist, why? Because the fact is that most gang members are minorities? Fact is fact. Calling it racist is nothing more than an attempt to obscure the truth.

Now on to your reply to me:
1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime. It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".

2:If a gun owner knowingly sell a gun to a felon, he has already committed a crime, thus does not fall under law-abiding. Not storing gun so as to make it harder to steal is stupid on many levels. It is both dangerous and a very good way to lose a fairly valuable/expensive piece of property.

Gun owners are already liable for damage caused by their guns. Once sold (or stolen) they no longer own the gun and should not be held liable for it's use or misuse.

Then we need to stop calling College shootings "school shootings". Yes they are at schools, but the students are adults. Another way of dishonestly inflating numbers while remaining technically correct. Like referring to 11,000 deaths as "tens of thousands"

A) That's not what I said at all.
B) ALL GUN VIOLENCE IS BAD. Including people who have been victims of gun violence is not "dishonestly inflating numbers".

"Mass shootings" by the definition I have seen is four, The same standard you mentioned for mass murders.

There is not official FBI definition for mass shooting, only mass murder.

But saying that a guy going on a rampage, wounding fourteen and killing one person is not a mass shooting is ridiculous.

1: True, but note, as you say law-abiding citizens do commit murder, but do so rarely, and considering the number of guns (est 300 million) and the number of gun-owners (est 100 million) Shootings are already rare events overall. The anti-gun crowd refuse to acknowledge the fact that the overwhelmingly VAST majority of gun owners will not commit a crime and the overwhelmingly vast majority of guns will not be used in a crime.

The vast majority of gun owners never shoot anyone with their gun. That's true, which is why I am not in the "ban all guns" crowd.
But the same thing is true for criminals. The vast majority of gun owning criminals never shoot anyone.

There are 1.4 million gang members in the US and 8,000 gun homicides occur annually. Even if 100% of those murders were gang related, (It's 5% in reality btw) only about 0.009% of gangsters would commit murder in any given year.

Oh and look at this: 62% of convicted murderers do not have a previous felony conviction and 64% do not have an active criminal justice status (fugitive, on parole etc.). And these statistics only apply to the 75 most heavily populated (and thus heavily gang-ridden) counties in the US.

Criminals as defined by the GCA68 prohibited persons list make up a minority of murderers.

It doesn't fit their agenda or support the lie of "increasing gun-violence".

Gun violence IS increasing in the US.

The homicide rates may be steady, but you can thank medical advances for that, not low crime rates.

“Our lethality findings are strongly consistent with the hypothesis that progress in emergency medical care has converted an ever increasing proportion of homicides into non-lethal assaults and thus, by virtue of good intentions, ironically and unintentionally masked a continuing epidemic of violence in America,”

[Cyllea]

Gang related shootings should not be included. The same amount of gang-related shootings would still happen, given that most, if not all, of their guns are illegal.

What makes you think other shooters are buying their own guns from legal sources and not just stealing them from relatives or buying them illegally?

I never implied that. But, regarding gang-related shootings, the majority of them are going to involve illegal weapons, whereas other shootings probably include either legally purchased guns or guns stolen from relatives (Which are still legally purchased.)

[Llamalandia]

Though if you are going to count a principal's wife who is an adult, likely highly educated, and with no criminal record as someone that must be kept from guns I begin to question who you would allow to have a gun.

I didn't say any such thing. I simply stated that these were school shootings. Please address actual points being made, not ones that you find easier to address.

Well it's inflation because its not one normally thinks of when one hears the term "school shooting". Generally we think of a "classic" school shooting as columbine-style shooting. That is one or more shooters who are current students of the school shooting/killing multiple other students/school personel.

Gang shootings are all targeted killings which yes may occasionally include some innocent bystanders, but those victims are unintended targets, whereas in a classic school shooting everyone shot was an intended target as the killers generally are shooting in a highly indiscriminate manner.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I didn't say any such thing. I simply stated that these were school shootings. Please address actual points being made, not ones that you find easier to address.

Well it's inflation because its not one normally thinks of when one hears the term "school shooting". Generally we think of a "classic" school shooting as columbine-style shooting. That is one or more shooters who are current students of the school shooting/killing multiple other students/school personel.

Gang shootings are all targeted killings which yes may occasionally include some innocent bystanders, but those victims are unintended targets, whereas in a classic school shooting everyone shot was an intended target as the killers generally are shooting in a highly indiscriminate manner.

Funny, I think of a school shooting as any shooting that takes place at a school, and puts the lives of the students, faculty, and/or staff at risk, regardless of the intended target or targets.

[Imperializt Russia]

Well it's inflation because its not one normally thinks of when one hears the term "school shooting". Generally we think of a "classic" school shooting as columbine-style shooting. That is one or more shooters who are current students of the school shooting/killing multiple other students/school personel.

Gang shootings are all targeted killings which yes may occasionally include some innocent bystanders, but those victims are unintended targets, whereas in a classic school shooting everyone shot was an intended target as the killers generally are shooting in a highly indiscriminate manner.

Funny, I think of a school shooting as any shooting that takes place at a school, and puts the lives of the students, faculty, and/or staff at risk, regardless of the intended target or targets.

It's being done to sensationalise the issue, though, primarily by trying to tie it in with the Newtown shooting.
"74 school shootings since Sandy Hook".
Compare with, "74 school shootings since 2013".

Understanding the motivation behind shootings and the circumstances to which they occur are just as important to trying to curb them.
A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child due to "gangs", that's indicative of a cultural problem - gang culture. A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child over a payment for a sold Wii console is indicative of a different cultural problem.

A person who goes with the express intent of shooting as many people as possible is a different and entirely more concerning cultural problem - which has, amazingly, managed to spawn its own cultural problem of further stigmatising mental health.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Funny, I think of a school shooting as any shooting that takes place at a school, and puts the lives of the students, faculty, and/or staff at risk, regardless of the intended target or targets.

It's being done to sensationalise the issue, though, primarily by trying to tie it in with the Newtown shooting.
"74 school shootings since Sandy Hook".
Compare with, "74 school shootings since 2013".

Understanding the motivation behind shootings and the circumstances to which they occur are just as important to trying to curb them.
A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child due to "gangs", that's indicative of a cultural problem - gang culture. A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child over a payment for a sold Wii console is indicative of a different cultural problem.

A person who goes with the express intent of shooting as many people as possible is a different and entirely more concerning cultural problem - which has, amazingly, managed to spawn its own cultural problem of further stigmatising mental health.

And the fact that such things happen in an environment created as a safe space meant for the development of children's intellectual and physical growth is a separate but overlapping cultural issue.

[Val Nube]

The problem they run into is statistically gun violence has been on the decline for decades, so of course they will do what every they can to inflate their numbers.

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?

[Geilinor]

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?

If it was the school parking lot, yes.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Except it's not inflation to call a shooting on school property a school shooting.

Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?

Provide links to unbiased sources with details.

[Imperializt Russia]

It's being done to sensationalise the issue, though, primarily by trying to tie it in with the Newtown shooting.
"74 school shootings since Sandy Hook".
Compare with, "74 school shootings since 2013".

Understanding the motivation behind shootings and the circumstances to which they occur are just as important to trying to curb them.
A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child due to "gangs", that's indicative of a cultural problem - gang culture. A child who goes and shoots or stabs another child over a payment for a sold Wii console is indicative of a different cultural problem.

A person who goes with the express intent of shooting as many people as possible is a different and entirely more concerning cultural problem - which has, amazingly, managed to spawn its own cultural problem of further stigmatising mental health.

And the fact that such things happen in an environment created as a safe space meant for the development of children's intellectual and physical growth is a separate but overlapping cultural issue.

One which transcends firearms.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

One which transcends firearms.

It's not as simple as the proliferation of firearms, true, though if firearms were less prevalent, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Then again, as I've stated in response to the hypotheticals of others, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hops.

[Val Nube]

Really? So the cop who dropped his gun and had it go off, the justifiable homicide in self defense, and the drug deal that went bad in the parking lot at two in the morning are school shootings? The campus cop who was accidentally shot by other cops is a school shooting? The shooting that took place off school property is a school shooting?

Provide links to unbiased sources with details.

Alright, standby. I'll dig them up.

Edit:
Self defense.
Off campus.
Shot over dice game at 9pm.
Police chase man into school parking lot, before having a gunfight.
Off campus.

That's just what a couple of minutes got me. I'm still searching for the one about the cop dropping his gun.

Edit 2:
Found it, not nearly as good as I'd hoped.
Retired Chicago cop drops gun, shoots himself, no charges filed.

[Suicune]

Apparently countries with better gun laws than America having less shootings doesn't seem to resonate strongly enough with some people. As for the OP, if a gang member shoots people at school, its still a school shooting. Isn't that logic?

[Geilinor]

As for the OP, if a gang member shoots people at school, its still a school shooting. Isn't that logic?

All shootings at schools are school shootings.
NOTE: I'm assuming your post was sarcasm because of the eyeroll.