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Is Kosovo part of Serbia?

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Great Kleomentia
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Postby Great Kleomentia » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:23 pm

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Postby European Socialist Republic » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:25 pm

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Kamchastkia
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Postby Kamchastkia » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:30 pm

Kosovo is an independent nation. If it belongs to any other nation other than Kosovo it is Albania seeing as how Kosovo is populated with a vast majority Albanian population for the past century.

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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:35 pm

Shofercia wrote:It's the result of the Bombing of Belgrade. Apparently when you bomb people and inform them that it's in the name of Human Rights, or ask others to do your very own dirty work, they're going to not like you very much...

I doubt that very much. People being upset over the lines they find on maps rather predate that particular bombing.

Think about it: do you really notice whether a particular part of the globe is part of Russia, or not? I'd wager that unless you live there, or very close to it, if you didn't hear about it in the news or some other long-distance means of communication, you would not be able to tell me whether South Ossetia is in Russia or not. It literally makes no difference to your life. It makes no difference to most people's lives.

So the only reason you'd care is because you imagine this thing called a 'Russian nation' or whatever, and then take things you associate with this concept personally. That's the only reason you could actually feel something one way or another about what political body governs South Ossetia.

And I'm not even saying that this is always a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when the feeling that is inspired by this 'Russian nation' concept is anger, or hatred, or some other feeling that would actually have you harm or otherwise express your anger at another person. Because people you deal with are unquestionably real. They're not abstract, like 'the nation' is. And there ought to be some sort of mechanism in a modern human being that allows him or her to make that distinction, and to recognise that there is a hierarchy in which people come first, and abstractions come some time after that.

And I'm afraid that this is not happening in many parts of the world, nor in Kosovo, or even in this thread. Which is disturbing, because we've had plenty of opportunities to see what happens when people start thinking of their actions towards others as being governed by these greater, and often malicious, abstractions.
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Vashta Nerada
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Postby Vashta Nerada » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:33 pm

My view is no. It isn't Serb, so it shouldn't be part of Serbia. However, given the way and conditions it which it separated, I'd be equally comfortable watching Kosovo get bombed back into Serbia.

As for the others, I'd love to see an independent Western Sahara as it's independence was confirmed by Spain, but it was later invaded and annexed by sand-chuckin', date-eating, camel-herding Morocco. The fact they invaded and took over the nation as soon as it was too weak to fend for itself was dirty, so I'll never recognize Moroccan Western Sahara.

Somaliland is nice as it is relatively safe, as it provides goods and services that Somalians can't find back home, you know, like safety. However, I'd much rather have it stick to Somalia rather than run around own its own, as Ethiopia is still looking for an outlet to the sea, and Somaliland will never be able to stop the beast to the east if it decides to "make" a way out.

Transnistria is pretty cool I always adored the Soviet Union, and their old "hanging on the old days" system is cute. So yeah, I'd support an independent Transnistria. Of course, if Moldova agreed to join the Eurasian Union, I'd be happy to see a peaceful re-integration of Transnistria back into Moldova too.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:40 pm

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Shofercia wrote:It's the result of the Bombing of Belgrade. Apparently when you bomb people and inform them that it's in the name of Human Rights, or ask others to do your very own dirty work, they're going to not like you very much...

I doubt that very much. People being upset over the lines they find on maps rather predate that particular bombing.

Think about it: do you really notice whether a particular part of the globe is part of Russia, or not? I'd wager that unless you live there, or very close to it, if you didn't hear about it in the news or some other long-distance means of communication, you would not be able to tell me whether South Ossetia is in Russia or not. It literally makes no difference to your life. It makes no difference to most people's lives.

So the only reason you'd care is because you imagine this thing called a 'Russian nation' or whatever, and then take things you associate with this concept personally. That's the only reason you could actually feel something one way or another about what political body governs South Ossetia.

And I'm not even saying that this is always a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when the feeling that is inspired by this 'Russian nation' concept is anger, or hatred, or some other feeling that would actually have you harm or otherwise express your anger at another person. Because people you deal with are unquestionably real. They're not abstract, like 'the nation' is. And there ought to be some sort of mechanism in a modern human being that allows him or her to make that distinction, and to recognise that there is a hierarchy in which people come first, and abstractions come some time after that.

And I'm afraid that this is not happening in many parts of the world, nor in Kosovo, or even in this thread. Which is disturbing, because we've had plenty of opportunities to see what happens when people start thinking of their actions towards others as being governed by these greater, and often malicious, abstractions.


Personally, I'm an ace at Geography, so I'd notice :P

But I see your point. However, you're misunderstanding the reason for Russia's intervention. It wasn't an idea of the "Russian Nation". Ossetians aren't Russians. It was more of Russia slapping down an aggressor in a region that Russia is effectively running. Had Saakashvili not attacked in 2004 and 2008, there would be no recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. The recognition was first and foremost to help stabilize the region, which it did.

As thus, that cannot be the only reason I'd care. The Russian Caucasus Region, (aka North Caucasus,) is huge. The Greater North Caucasus spans almost 600,000 kilometers, and has a population of 23.4 million people, all of whom are affected by what goes on in the rest of the region, including South Caucasus where South Ossetia is located. (If you want the non-Greater North Caucasus, simply subtract the three Oblasts from those numbers.) If I have business interests or family anywhere in that region, I'd know about the situation. If I have friends there, I'd also know about it. It's not just a matter of a "Russian Nation". In fact, the Russians in South Ossetia would be extremely easy to relocate, within a year and appropriate funding. Probably less than the 611 million spent on South Ossetia's reconstruction.

In terms of Kosovo, I'm worried about the precedent. Kosovo did not separate from Serbia via a velvet divorce. It was an extremely violent procedure, with destruction and death. I am unsure about what rewarding that will do, but I highly doubt that'd be a good thing.
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Britain and Brittany
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Postby Britain and Brittany » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:43 pm

Death to Kosovo, Kosovo is Serbia!
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The Revolutionary Fighters of Intel
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Postby The Revolutionary Fighters of Intel » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:47 pm

European Socialist Republic wrote:It can be whatever it wants to be.

It can?

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:15 am

Shofercia wrote:
Neu Leonstein wrote:This disturbs me. It's like two world wars weren't enough to get the message through about how incredibly silly this sort of thing is.


It's the result of the Bombing of Belgrade. Apparently when you bomb people and inform them that it's in the name of Human Rights, or ask others to do your very own dirty work, they're going to not like you very much...

Besides, Kosovo's a Mafia State, once the EU funding dries up, the internal structures are going to start to collapse.


That's because you suppose that the mafia won't fund it anymore.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:16 am

Britain and Brittany wrote:Death to Kosovo, Kosovo is Serbia!

If Kosovo is Serbia, why do you have Serbia so much that you want a part of it to snuff it?
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Seljuq Kyiv
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Postby Seljuq Kyiv » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:52 am

Kosovo is that it is.

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New Waterford
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Postby New Waterford » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:40 am

Kosovo can be whatever it wants to be.
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Rationallia
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Postby Rationallia » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:44 am

No,it is independent.

I don't support it since it was created due to Albanians meddling in Serbia.

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Nervium
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Postby Nervium » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:49 am

European Socialist Republic wrote:It can be whatever it wants to be.


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Darwinish Brentsylvania
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Postby Darwinish Brentsylvania » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:30 am

Seljuq Kyiv wrote:Kosovo is that it is.

Yes.
New Waterford wrote:Kosovo can be whatever it wants to be.

Yes.

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Postby Risottia » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:19 am

New Waterford wrote:Kosovo can be whatever it wants to be.

So does North Kosovo I guess?
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:03 am

Shofercia wrote:In terms of Kosovo, I'm worried about the precedent. Kosovo did not separate from Serbia via a velvet divorce. It was an extremely violent procedure, with destruction and death. I am unsure about what rewarding that will do, but I highly doubt that'd be a good thing.

Neither did the Grand Duchy of Moscow from the Mongols. People are pissed about these things for a while and then they settle down and move on. In a world in which information and opinion is disseminated more easily though, it is all the more important that we call out people who spout nationalist silliness whenever they do so.
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Postby Herrebrugh » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:19 am

Kosovo is... Well... Kosovo.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:24 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Shofercia wrote:In terms of Kosovo, I'm worried about the precedent. Kosovo did not separate from Serbia via a velvet divorce. It was an extremely violent procedure, with destruction and death. I am unsure about what rewarding that will do, but I highly doubt that'd be a good thing.

Neither did the Grand Duchy of Moscow from the Mongols. People are pissed about these things for a while and then they settle down and move on. In a world in which information and opinion is disseminated more easily though, it is all the more important that we call out people who spout nationalist silliness whenever they do so.


The Grand Duchy of Moscow was liberated via centuries of guerrilla campaigns waged with the funding from the Novgorod Republic, which Mongols failed to conquer outright. The first Muscovite to challenge Mongol economic hegemony was Ivan Kalita, the grandson of Alexander Nevsky. Ivan's great grandson, Dmitri of Don, dealt the first major military blow to the Mongols at the Battle of Kulikovo. Dmitri's great grandson, Ivan the Great, was the one who liberated Moscow from the Mongols. It was a long and drawn out fight. After a war like that, everyone is simply more tired of fighting than each other. Before that, Ivan also annexed Novgorod Republic back to Moscow, to prevent it from falling into the Polish hands, since by this time, there were several factions fighting for power in Novgorod. The factional infighting in Novgorod started after Donskoy spent a vast amount of resources on Kulikovo, but that's a story for another day. This isn't something that can be compared to Sir Bombsalot.

While I agree that Nationalism is silly, one has to realize that it's not just going to go away by people calling it silly on internet forums. One must find out what drives Nationalism. One of the things that does, as has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout history, (Verdun at WWI, Leningrad & London at WWII, Vietnam War,) is bombing a nation's capital into submission. That's when the people see something that's truly unjust, and believe that their best recourse is towards nationalism. Mistakes have to be acknowledged and admitted, if Nationalism is to be challenged. Otherwise you're portraying the aggressors as bombing liars, and that'll simply create more Nationalism from the side that was bombed, irrespective of what goes on in online forums.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:56 am

Shofercia wrote:While I agree that Nationalism is silly, one has to realize that it's not just going to go away by people calling it silly on internet forums. One must find out what drives Nationalism. One of the things that does, as has been repeatedly demonstrated throughout history, (Verdun at WWI, Leningrad & London at WWII, Vietnam War,) is bombing a nation's capital into submission. That's when the people see something that's truly unjust, and believe that their best recourse is towards nationalism. Mistakes have to be acknowledged and admitted, if Nationalism is to be challenged. Otherwise you're portraying the aggressors as bombing liars, and that'll simply create more Nationalism from the side that was bombed, irrespective of what goes on in online forums.

I notice you left out Berlin, Tokyo and any number of other cities in Axis countries during WWII. Those were cases where people did let things go, did recognise that bad things were done by their own people as well as the other side, and made a conscious decision (perhaps more conscious in Germany than Japan) that it's important to not only let bygones be bygones, but actually attack nationalistic thought for the harmful thing it is. And that despite there never having been a real apology or the admission of a mistake for those bombing campaigns.

That ought to be possible for Serbs too (and I'm certain that many of them are doing just that), especially since you'd have to agree that the consequences of WWII for Germany and Japan were rather worse than the consequences of the NATO bombing campaign for Serbia.
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Postby Mirkana » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:04 pm

Kosovo is Kosovar. The northern bit can go back to Serbia.
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Postby Goddess Relief Office » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:27 pm

Kosovo belongs to no one but the inhabitants
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Postby Goddess Relief Office » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:28 pm

Kosovo belongs to no one but the inhabitants
Keeper of The World Tree - Yggdrasil
General Assembly:
GA#053 - Epidemic Response Act
GA#163 - Repeal LOTS
GA#223 - Transboundary Water Use Act

Security Council:
SC#030 - Commend 10000 Islands (co-author)
SC#044 - Commend Texas (co-author)
SC#066 - Repeal "Liberate Wonderful Paradise"
SC#108 - Liberate South Pacific
SC#135 - Liberate Anarchy (co-author)
SC#139 - Repeal "Liberate South Pacific"

Former delegate and retired defender
Nice links for easy reference:
Passed WA Resolutions | GA Resolutions (sorted by category) | GA Rules

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EUstan
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Postby EUstan » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:37 pm

Goddess Relief Office wrote:Kosovo belongs to no one but the inhabitants

Good. that are the Albanians.

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