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Gay marriage to be allowed in NJ

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should gay marriage be allowed?

Yes- It is essential to human rights
183
63%
Yes- Why not?
57
20%
No- A marriage is between a man and a woman
31
11%
No- God disapproves of this
6
2%
Indifferent
13
4%
 
Total votes : 290

User avatar
Yankeesse
Envoy
 
Posts: 266
Founded: Sep 15, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankeesse » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Pandeeria wrote:At least we are chugging along in social progress decline.

ftfy
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

A people becomes aware of its existence when it becomes aware of its entirety, not only of its component parts and their individual interests. - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:59 pm

Yankeesse wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:At least we are chugging along in social progress decline.

ftfy

I'm not seeing a decline anywhere.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

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The Godly Nations
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5503
Founded: Jul 20, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Godly Nations » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:59 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
Genivaria wrote:And you are wrong. And simply calling people 'moochers' does nothing for your credibility.


in case you are confused the right to live "as you choose" is inferred.


There is no right without government.

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Regnum Dominae
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12345
Founded: Feb 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Regnum Dominae » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:59 pm

Yankeesse wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:At least we are chugging along in social progress decline.

ftfy

How the hell is this social decline?
I support peace in Israel and Palestine. The governments and people in power on all sides are an absolute disgrace, and their unwillingness to pursue peace is a disservice to the people they are meant to be serving. The status quo is not simply untenable; it is unquestionably unacceptable.

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IamJohnGalt
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 43
Founded: Oct 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby IamJohnGalt » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:59 pm

Liriena wrote:
IamJohnGalt wrote:
1. Wrong. Marriage as is referred to in the op is a product of the State. It's my contention the State should not be in the marriage business.

2.Others claimed marriage conveyed certain "rights" (loot for moochers). I stated marriage does not inherently contain "rights".

3. The right to live (which I have explained before is a dependent on the right to property) is the only right...everything else follows from there.



2. Your statement was demonstrably false. Civil marriage inherently contains several rights, most of which have been inherently associated with marriage for many centuries.


name one

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Neo Rome Republic
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5337
Founded: Dec 27, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Neo Rome Republic » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:59 pm

Yankeesse wrote:
Pandeeria wrote:At least we are chugging along in social progress decline Advancement and Progress.

ftfy

Fixed it for real, you're welcome. :D
Last edited by Neo Rome Republic on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yumyumsuppertime
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 28799
Founded: Jun 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:00 pm

It's amazing how no matter what the subject may be, any random Objectivist can come in and turn it into a turgid, unoriginal rant on what Rand would think about the matter, dropping references to moochers, statism, and the inherent rights of the individual along the way. It's like how religious extremists will turn everything back to Jesus, and how we need to be saved.

Yes, we get it. You read Atlas Shrugged. You thought that her sociopathic hero was just awesome. You think that in Galt's Gulch, you'd climb right to the top (funny how nobody EVER thinks that they'd stay a janitor in Galt's Gulch). And now you've taken her mad rantings cloaked in a veneer of supposed reason and you're trying to apply it to issues and situations that she likely never dreamed that society would be facing.

But you know what? It's boring. Pretty much all of us have read at least some of her works. Most of us rolled our eyes and moved on. A few of us acted like total dicks for a couple of weeks, then got over it. We understand that you're a True Believer. That's cool. But much like the religious fanatic mentioned earlier, trotting out the hoariest of Objectivist cliches and terms isn't going to change anyone's mind.

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Agritum
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22112
Founded: May 09, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Agritum » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:00 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yankeesse wrote:ftfy

I'm not seeing a decline anywhere.

Some people like being backwards, Geni.
Neoliberal Globalist Ukraine Supporter
Friedmanite Libertarian ALDE Eurofederalist



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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:01 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
Liriena wrote:

2. Your statement was demonstrably false. Civil marriage inherently contains several rights, most of which have been inherently associated with marriage for many centuries.


name one

Off the top of my head there's hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights also adoption I think.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

User avatar
Yumyumsuppertime
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 28799
Founded: Jun 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:01 pm

Genivaria wrote:
IamJohnGalt wrote:
name one

Off the top of my head there's hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights also adoption I think.


Yes to all of the above.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:02 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Off the top of my head there's hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights also adoption I think.


Yes to all of the above.

A quick Google search would answer your question Galt.
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/an-o ... ed-couples
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

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IamJohnGalt
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 43
Founded: Oct 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby IamJohnGalt » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:02 pm

The Godly Nations wrote:
IamJohnGalt wrote:
in case you are confused the right to live "as you choose" is inferred.


There is no right without government.



"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand

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Threlizdun
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15441
Founded: Jun 14, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Threlizdun » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:03 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
Liriena wrote:

2. Your statement was demonstrably false. Civil marriage inherently contains several rights, most of which have been inherently associated with marriage for many centuries.


name one
Hospital access, shared health benefits, input on care when their spouse is incapable of giving their input, shared property, notification by authorities in cases of emergency, taxation benefits, etc.
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User avatar
Yumyumsuppertime
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 28799
Founded: Jun 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:03 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
The Godly Nations wrote:
There is no right without government.



"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand


An original thought might be nice. I'm sure that as a heroic, original human being who owns his own thoughts and is fully capable of reason, you can make an argument without mooching off of the thoughts and writings of another.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:03 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
The Godly Nations wrote:
There is no right without government.



"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand

Quoting from an idiotic woman grants you nothing here.
Try speaking for yourself.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

User avatar
Agritum
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22112
Founded: May 09, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Agritum » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:03 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
The Godly Nations wrote:
There is no right without government.



"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand

In which verse of what book does the Russian Sex Kitten say that?
Neoliberal Globalist Ukraine Supporter
Friedmanite Libertarian ALDE Eurofederalist



User avatar
Yumyumsuppertime
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 28799
Founded: Jun 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:04 pm

Genivaria wrote:
IamJohnGalt wrote:

"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand

Quoting from an idiotic woman grants you nothing here.


It's the Objectivist equivalent of trotting out Bible verses.

User avatar
The Godly Nations
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5503
Founded: Jul 20, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Godly Nations » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:04 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:It's amazing how no matter what the subject may be, any random Objectivist can come in and turn it into a turgid, unoriginal rant on what Rand would think about the matter, dropping references to moochers, statism, and the inherent rights of the individual along the way. It's like how religious extremists will turn everything back to Jesus, and how we need to be saved.

Yes, we get it. You read Atlas Shrugged. You thought that her sociopathic hero was just awesome. You think that in Galt's Gulch, you'd climb right to the top (funny how nobody EVER thinks that they'd stay a janitor in Galt's Gulch). And now you've taken her mad rantings cloaked in a veneer of supposed reason and you're trying to apply it to issues and situations that she likely never dreamed that society would be facing.

But you know what? It's boring. Pretty much all of us have read at least some of her works. Most of us rolled our eyes and moved on. A few of us acted like total dicks for a couple of weeks, then got over it. We understand that you're a True Believer. That's cool. But much like the religious fanatic mentioned earlier, trotting out the hoariest of Objectivist cliches and terms isn't going to change anyone's mind.


Heretic, ye generation of serpents and vipers, when the great Rand return, she shall toss thee to eternal torment into Objectivist hell, where mediocrity is rewarded and the poor are nannied by the government, and Socialism prevails. Thou shall be tossed to Sweden, where forever shall ye gnash your teeth against the stone!

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Geilinor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41328
Founded: Feb 20, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Geilinor » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:05 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
Liriena wrote:

2. Your statement was demonstrably false. Civil marriage inherently contains several rights, most of which have been inherently associated with marriage for many centuries.


name one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and_responsibilities_of_marriages_in_the_United_States#Rights_and_benefits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_consequences_of_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom
Member of the Free Democratic Party. Not left. Not right. Forward.
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IamJohnGalt
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 43
Founded: Oct 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby IamJohnGalt » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:06 pm

Genivaria wrote:
IamJohnGalt wrote:
name one

Off the top of my head there's hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights also adoption I think.


Those are allowed or not allowed by the State having nothing inherently to do with one persons individual commitment to another... "marriage"

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:07 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Off the top of my head there's hospital visitation rights and inheritance rights also adoption I think.


Those are allowed or not allowed by the State having nothing inherently to do with one persons individual commitment to another... "marriage"

The facts say otherwise. Try reading the sources provided.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

User avatar
The Godly Nations
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5503
Founded: Jul 20, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Godly Nations » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:07 pm

IamJohnGalt wrote:
The Godly Nations wrote:
There is no right without government.



"If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules. This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government." ~Ayn Rand


Protecting folk's rights require that a list of rights be drawn up...and the folks drawing it up is the government.

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Yankeesse
Envoy
 
Posts: 266
Founded: Sep 15, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Yankeesse » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:07 pm

Agritum wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I'm not seeing a decline anywhere.

Some people like being backwards, Geni.


That's vey intolerant of you.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

A people becomes aware of its existence when it becomes aware of its entirety, not only of its component parts and their individual interests. - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

----
Self Identifies as MtM trannsexual butch lesbian genderfluid omniheterosexual genderbender genderqueer gendergender.

User avatar
Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 61764
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:08 pm

Yankeesse wrote:
Agritum wrote:Some people like being backwards, Geni.


That's vey intolerant of you.

No it's not, you clearly don't know what that word means.
"He disagreed with me! Stop being intolerant!"
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Liberal Social Democrat.

User avatar
Regnum Dominae
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12345
Founded: Feb 13, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Regnum Dominae » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:08 pm

Yankeesse wrote:
Agritum wrote:Some people like being backwards, Geni.


That's vey intolerant of you.

:palm:
I support peace in Israel and Palestine. The governments and people in power on all sides are an absolute disgrace, and their unwillingness to pursue peace is a disservice to the people they are meant to be serving. The status quo is not simply untenable; it is unquestionably unacceptable.

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