Christian Group: Teaching science violates religious freedom

[Grenartia]

That word. I don't think it means what you think it does.

I have seven fingers... can you make me a sword?

I don't get the reference...

[Farnhamia]

I have seven fingers... can you make me a sword?

I don't get the reference...

Because the person in question, Count Rugen in The Princess Bride, only had six fingers.

[Germany in Pajamas]

It's all about how something works, and all fall on the spectrum that is theory in the acedemic sense. Even when you're on the non empirical side of the spectrum, it's still about how things work.

Yes, but scientific theories must be testable and falsifiable.

I never said it wasn't. That also doesn't change the fact that the definition of theory isn't a best guess. It's how something works. Would you rather I upload scans of my first year chem book? While the other books I still have aren't in English, I can assure you they agree with the Pearson book. I would be surprised to find a book published by a reliable publisher that said anything different.

[European Socialist Republic]

All I hear them say is: "We can't teach our children facts because that infringes upon their our freedom to remain stupid keep them ignorant and easily manipulated."

fixed.

That too!

[Utceforp]

I would like to point out that America has a lot more freedom now than it did when it was founded, or even fifty years ago.

Source?

I graduated from high school in '65, I'd like to point out that kids today have less freedom than we did and are certainly more vulnerable to intrusion without probable cause than we were. I can remember when I could go to Canada or Mexico without needing a passport. I can remember when I could get on an airplane without having to arrive two hours early to go through a TSA vetting. I can remember a time when I could speak my mind without some sort of doublethink about who would see or hear what I said and how I should modify it to be innocuous enough to pass the prying eyes and still get my meaning across. Some Americans, the wealthy, the powerful, the white, the male are more free than ever, others, the Muslim, the poor, are less free and the female and people of color are pretty much poised to lose what they have now. Privacy is gone and you speak your mind at your peril.

(This is very off-topic, and we should probably return to the topic at hand, but I would like to add a few things)

There was that whole "slavery", and later, "segregation" thing. Just saying.

[Shaggai]

I don't get the reference...

Because the person in question, Count Rugen in The Princess Bride, only had six fingers.

No, he had eleven. He just had six on one hand.

[Anachronous Rex]

Because the person in question, Count Rugen in The Princess Bride, only had six fingers.

No, he had eleven. He just had six on one hand.

Nine. Thumbs don't count.

[Blakk Metal]

Source?

I graduated from high school in '65, I'd like to point out that kids today have less freedom than we did and are certainly more vulnerable to intrusion without probable cause than we were. I can remember when I could go to Canada or Mexico without needing a passport. I can remember when I could get on an airplane without having to arrive two hours early to go through a TSA vetting. I can remember a time when I could speak my mind without some sort of doublethink about who would see or hear what I said and how I should modify it to be innocuous enough to pass the prying eyes and still get my meaning across. Some Americans, the wealthy, the powerful, the white, the male are more free than ever, others, the Muslim, the poor, are less free and the female and people of color are pretty much poised to lose what they have now. Privacy is gone and you speak your mind at your peril.

(This is very off-topic, and we should probably return to the topic at hand, but I would like to add a few things)

There was that whole "slavery", and later, "segregation" thing. Just saying.

Freedom peaked in the Seventies.

The first dude who mentions Ted Bundy gets kicked in the nuts.

[Tekania]

No, we shouldn't. It's denying children the ability to pick their own beliefs. It's like preaching about how 'Communism started the Cold War'. It's biased brainwashing, and there is no 'buttload of evidence' that Evolution is true. Just because some guy, somewhere, has some sort of theory that's never been proven, doesn't mean it's groundbreaking research.

Creationism is a belief, evolution is a fact. Teaching evolution doesn't deny anybody anything. Teaching creationism denies reality.

I'll propose a middle ground.... everyone like middle-grounds right?

We'll teach creationism... but only one.... you know there are many, but there is just not enough time to give it to EVERY creation theology... so we'll only do one. Well, the one we will do is Evolutionary Creationism/Theistic Evolution... but of course to make is science friendly we will eliminated the parts about God, and only stick to the physical science parts.... Problem solved.

[Shaggai]

No, he had eleven. He just had six on one hand.

Nine. Thumbs don't count.

Still not six total.

[Cannot think of a name]

you speak your mind at your peril.

I would argue that you really have just as much freedom to speak your mind as you ever had, it's just that others now feel the freedom to tell you if your mind might be being a dick. I mean, that's what's at stake here, isn't it? No one is being jailed for 'speaking their mind,' no one is being sanctioned by the government...what's happening is when some people 'speak their mind' others might tell them, "dude, that's fucked up."

What you're really lamenting is the ability to be fucked up without being called on it. Wouldn't that be more freedom because the people who thought you were fucked up but too afraid to say so now do not have that fear?

[Farnhamia]

you speak your mind at your peril.

I would argue that you really have just as much freedom to speak your mind as you ever had, it's just that others now feel the freedom to tell you if your mind might be being a dick. I mean, that's what's at stake here, isn't it? No one is being jailed for 'speaking their mind,' no one is being sanctioned by the government...what's happening is when some people 'speak their mind' others might tell them, "dude, that's fucked up."

What you're really lamenting is the ability to be fucked up without being called on it. Wouldn't that be more freedom because the people who thought you were fucked up but too afraid to say so now do not have that fear?

This threadjack stopped five pages ago. Or so I thought.

[The Parkus Empire]

Global warning has nothing to do with religion, but then again, it's probably the same sort of people who get upset if you teach kids not to think being molested is normal.

Hm....

[Farnhamia]

Global warning has nothing to do with religion, but then again, it's probably the same sort of people who get upset if you teach kids not to think being molested is normal.

Hm....

No, it's because they don't like Al Gore. We've been over this.

[Marquette of Pacific]

No, we shouldn't. It's denying children the ability to pick their own beliefs. It's like preaching about how 'Communism started the Cold War'. It's biased brainwashing, and there is no 'buttload of evidence' that Evolution is true. Just because some guy, somewhere, has some sort of theory that's never been proven, doesn't mean it's groundbreaking research.

Creationism is a belief, evolution is a fact. Teaching evolution doesn't deny anybody anything. Teaching creationism denies reality.

OK SUUUURE

[Divair]

It's denying children the ability to pick their own beliefs.

No it isn't. Again, who says they can't pick their own belief?

and there is no 'buttload of evidence' that Evolution is true.

Right. Tallyho.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
http://www.txtwriter.com/backgrounders/ ... tents.html
http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolu ... /live.html
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... 0/lines_01
http://www.nature.com/nature/newspdf/evolutiongems.pdf
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... _tiktaalik
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... /devitt_01
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... history_23
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... history_16
http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evidenc ... lution.htm
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/fitch/cours ... dence.html
http://www.imls.uzh.ch/research/noll/pu ... 73_785.pdf
http://www.cell.com/developmental-cell/ ... 0703003253
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/hum_ape_chrom.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/07/scien ... .html?_r=1
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/91/3/221
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1006000526
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/310/5746/287
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-WAHpC0Ah0
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/molb.ws.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 331a0.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 050603.php
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 071801.php
http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20060327/evo.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... =pmcentrez
http://scienceray.com/biology/zoology/a ... maritimus/
http://facstaff.gpc.edu/~pgore/geology/ ... vation.pdf
http://www.nmsr.org/nylon.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc ... l#atavisms

Feel free to refute all of this.

I wonder if any creationists will ever bother to look at even a third of the links.

[Anachronous Rex]

Creationism is a belief, evolution is a fact. Teaching evolution doesn't deny anybody anything. Teaching creationism denies reality.

OK SUUUURE

This post combines total ignorance, a caps lock, and smiley abuse. I hereby award it the NSG Congressional Medal of

[Benuty]

Global warning has nothing to do with religion, but then again, it's probably the same sort of people who get upset if you teach kids not to think being molested is normal.

Hm....

No, it's because they don't like Al Gore. We've been over this.

What is so important about Al gore again?

Isn't he that fellow that farted in the presidents face?

[Marquette of Pacific]

OK SUUUURE

This post combines total ignorance, a caps lock, and smiley abuse. I hereby award it the NSG Congressional Medal of

I am truly honored sir, but I abused no smileys. What Anachronous Rex said was legitimately funny.

Now THAT is smiley abuse for you ^

Oh right and there was absolutely zero ignorance in that post.

[Blasveck]

This post combines total ignorance, a caps lock, and smiley abuse. I hereby award it the NSG Congressional Medal of

I am truly honored sir, but I abused no smileys. What Anachronous Rex said was legitimately funny.

Now THAT is smiley abuse for you ^

Oh right and there was absolutely zero ignorance in that post.

What's so funny?

Creationism is undeniably false and should not be taught to any children either.

I mean unless you feel that it is okay to teach children alchemy and magic as well.

[Benuty]

I am truly honored sir, but I abused no smileys. What Anachronous Rex said was legitimately funny.

Now THAT is smiley abuse for you ^

Oh right and there was absolutely zero ignorance in that post.

What's so funny?

Creationism is undeniably false and should not be taught to any children either.

I mean unless you feel that it is okay to teach children alchemy and magic as well.

Oh now come on "Full Metal Alchemist and FMA: Brotherhood" were great shows no need to insult them.

[The Serbian Empire]

No, it's because they don't like Al Gore. We've been over this.

What is so important about Al gore again?

Isn't he that fellow that farted in the presidents face?

He's the guy who is the poster child of global warming who doesn't heed his own advise by running a private jet to his speaking engagements and living in a mansion with the energy usage of a small factory. Simply, a hypocrite of the 9001st degree. However, that would be shifting the topic and I won't discuss this any further unless one wants to make a new thread on the dreaded Global Warming.

[Imsogone]

you speak your mind at your peril.

I would argue that you really have just as much freedom to speak your mind as you ever had, it's just that others now feel the freedom to tell you if your mind might be being a dick. I mean, that's what's at stake here, isn't it? No one is being jailed for 'speaking their mind,' no one is being sanctioned by the government...what's happening is when some people 'speak their mind' others might tell them, "dude, that's fucked up."

What you're really lamenting is the ability to be fucked up without being called on it. Wouldn't that be more freedom because the people who thought you were fucked up but too afraid to say so now do not have that fear?

At risk of Farn getting me for continuing the 'jack - no. I'm lamenting this notion that my opinion on certain things constitutes persecution if I disagree with a certain loud, vocal minority. Really, I don't object to reasonable, rational disagreement. The problem is it's no longer reasonable or rational. But if I'm taken to court and stand a reasonable chance of not being fairly heard because my insistance on freedom from religion somehow consitutes religious persecution, then that's fucked up.

[Marquette of Pacific]

What's so funny?

Creationism is undeniably false and should not be taught to any children either.

I mean unless you feel that it is okay to teach children alchemy and magic as well.

Oh now come on "Full Metal Alchemist and FMA: Brotherhood" were great shows no need to insult them.

He said evolution is a fact and that believing creationism denies reality, LOL!!

[Mistelemr]

I demand my Freedom^TM to _force my child to believe in _my God!