Abortion and Capital Punishment

[Brissia]

It's still your fault for not reading the evidence presented before you.

Evidence to what ?

Do you start a thread with a title like "Discuss" and give a link and not another word from you on the topic and expect people to bother ?

If he had made any arguments or even attempted to, then sure. But it is like me saying here is my source that contradicts it :

http://www.google.com

Search for the contradiction using it and you will get your answer.

But you see, there is a difference between just giving a link to Google, and giving a link to one website which lists evidence against your case. By not opening that link, and at least attempting to find the evidence, you are thus rejecting the evidence presented before you.

[Geilinor]

It's still your fault for not reading the evidence presented before you.

Evidence to what ?

Do you start a thread with a title like "Discuss" and give a link and not another word from you on the topic and expect people to bother ?

If he had made any arguments or even attempted to, then sure. But it is like me saying here is my source that contradicts it :

http://www.google.com

Search for the contradiction using it and you will get your answer.

It was a direct link to the evidence.

[Solarys]

Evidence to what ?

Do you start a thread with a title like "Discuss" and give a link and not another word from you on the topic and expect people to bother ?

If he had made any arguments or even attempted to, then sure. But it is like me saying here is my source that contradicts it :

http://www.google.com

Search for the contradiction using it and you will get your answer.

But you see, there is a difference between just giving a link to Google, and giving a link to one website which lists evidence against your case. By not opening that link, and at least attempting to find the evidence, you are thus rejecting the evidence presented before you.

Like i said, if you are here to argue then do that. If you are going to post a link and leave with no explanation, i am not going to bother.

Also google can give you the contradictory evidence, but by not even attempting to find the evidence, you are thus rejecting the evidence presented before you.

[Blakk Metal]

You're just refusing to click it because you're afraid of losing.

I am afraid of getting a virus or any other kind of malware actually.

And that's just talking about the immediate physical repercussions.
Below is a partial list of the physical effects and risks of pregnancy. This list does not include the many non-physical effects and risks a woman faces in reproducing, such as the economic investment of work interruptions from pregnancy and breastfeeding, or time lost from career and other opportunity costs involved in pregnancy and later child rearing (mothers comprise 90+% of primary parents), or the emotional trauma of problem pregnancies, or the numerous economic and lifestyle repercussions that pregnancy and motherhood will have on the remainder of a mother's life.

This page was written in response to the popular, but mother-denigrating and nonsensical notion that, absent a substantial investment of some other sort, i.e. absent committed emotional and financial support of the mother of his child through pregnancy and beyond, and a familial relationship with both of them in fact, a "father" is, without anything more, a father, let alone an "equal parent."

We have been culturally conditioned to accept some incredible and false ideas. But it is offensive to assert that pregnancy impacts men in any way equivalent to its impact on women; that fathers and mothers have comparable experiences or feelings in connection with pregnancy or their babies; that nonresident unwed fathers, based on DNA, ipso facto "should" have "rights;" that, from the standpoint of family laws or women's choices regarding abortion, pregnancy should be viewed as nothing more than an "inconvenience"; or that the riskiest "jobs" in this world all are performed by men. (Compare the percentages of women carrying the [url=LINK REMOVED]scars of pregnancy[/url] with the percentages of men who carry the scars of battle.)

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

• exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
• altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
• nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
• heartburn and indigestion
• constipation
• weight gain
• dizziness and light-headedness
• bloating, swelling, fluid retention
• hemmorhoids
• abdominal cramps
• yeast infections
• congested, bloody nose
• acne and mild skin disorders
• skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
• mild to severe backache and strain
• increased headaches
• difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
• increased urination and incontinence
• bleeding gums
• pica
• breast pain and discharge
• swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
• difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
• inability to take regular medications
• shortness of breath
• higher blood pressure
• hair loss
• tendency to anemia
• curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
• infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
• extreme pain on delivery
• hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
• continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

• stretch marks (worse in younger women)
• loose skin
• permanent weight gain or redistribution
• abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
• pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
• changes to breasts
• varicose veins
• scarring from episiotomy or c-section
• other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
• increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
• loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
• higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
• newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:

• complications of episiotomy
• spousal/partner abuse
• hyperemesis gravidarum
• temporary and permanent injury to back
• [url=LINK REMOVED]severe scarring[/url] requiring later surgery
  (especially after additional pregnancies)
• dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
• pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
• eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
• gestational diabetes
• placenta previa
• anemia (which can be life-threatening)
• thrombocytopenic purpura
• severe cramping
• embolism (blood clots)
• medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
• diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
• mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
• serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
• hormonal imbalance
• ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
• broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
• hemorrhage and
• numerous other complications of delivery
• refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
• aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
• severe post-partum depression and psychosis
• research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
• research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
• research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

• peripartum cardiomyopathy
• cardiopulmonary arrest
• magnesium toxicity
• severe hypoxemia/acidosis
• massive embolism
• increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
• molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
  (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
• malignant arrhythmia
• circulatory collapse
• placental abruption
• obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:

• future infertility
• permanent disability
• death.

[Brissia]

But you see, there is a difference between just giving a link to Google, and giving a link to one website which lists evidence against your case. By not opening that link, and at least attempting to find the evidence, you are thus rejecting the evidence presented before you.

Like i said, if you are here to argue then do that. If you are going to post a link and leave with no explanation, i am not going to bother.

Also google can give you the contradictory evidence, but by not even attempting to find the evidence, you are thus rejecting the evidence presented before you.

Google is a search engine, thus making it a tool to find information.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is a difference between looking for evidence against your case, and reading evidence against your case. You were given a link to a specific website, which listed evidence against your case. You didn't open it? Your loss.

[Australasia]

Is there anyone here that is against both abortion and capital punishment. I am against both. I think it is ironic to be either pro-choice and against capital punishment or pro-life and for capital punishment. I want to know if there are any people like me here.

I quite sure everyone is against abortion and considers it an abhorrent thing (except a few nutcases perhaps) including both pro-life and pro-choice people. Capital punishment too is an abhorrent practice which is utterly inexcusable in the modern world.

[Solarys]

I am afraid of getting a virus or any other kind of malware actually.

And that's just talking about the immediate physical repercussions.
Below is a partial list of the physical effects and risks of pregnancy. This list does not include the many non-physical effects and risks a woman faces in reproducing, such as the economic investment of work interruptions from pregnancy and breastfeeding, or time lost from career and other opportunity costs involved in pregnancy and later child rearing (mothers comprise 90+% of primary parents), or the emotional trauma of problem pregnancies, or the numerous economic and lifestyle repercussions that pregnancy and motherhood will have on the remainder of a mother's life.

This page was written in response to the popular, but mother-denigrating and nonsensical notion that, absent a substantial investment of some other sort, i.e. absent committed emotional and financial support of the mother of his child through pregnancy and beyond, and a familial relationship with both of them in fact, a "father" is, without anything more, a father, let alone an "equal parent."

We have been culturally conditioned to accept some incredible and false ideas. But it is offensive to assert that pregnancy impacts men in any way equivalent to its impact on women; that fathers and mothers have comparable experiences or feelings in connection with pregnancy or their babies; that nonresident unwed fathers, based on DNA, ipso facto "should" have "rights;" that, from the standpoint of family laws or women's choices regarding abortion, pregnancy should be viewed as nothing more than an "inconvenience"; or that the riskiest "jobs" in this world all are performed by men. (Compare the percentages of women carrying the [url=LINK REMOVED]scars of pregnancy[/url] with the percentages of men who carry the scars of battle.)

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

• exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
• altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
• nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
• heartburn and indigestion
• constipation
• weight gain
• dizziness and light-headedness
• bloating, swelling, fluid retention
• hemmorhoids
• abdominal cramps
• yeast infections
• congested, bloody nose
• acne and mild skin disorders
• skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
• mild to severe backache and strain
• increased headaches
• difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
• increased urination and incontinence
• bleeding gums
• pica
• breast pain and discharge
• swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
• difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
• inability to take regular medications
• shortness of breath
• higher blood pressure
• hair loss
• tendency to anemia
• curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
• infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
• extreme pain on delivery
• hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
• continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

• stretch marks (worse in younger women)
• loose skin
• permanent weight gain or redistribution
• abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
• pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
• changes to breasts
• varicose veins
• scarring from episiotomy or c-section
• other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
• increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
• loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
• higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
• newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:

• complications of episiotomy
• spousal/partner abuse
• hyperemesis gravidarum
• temporary and permanent injury to back
• [url=LINK REMOVED]severe scarring[/url] requiring later surgery
  (especially after additional pregnancies)
• dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
• pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
• eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
• gestational diabetes
• placenta previa
• anemia (which can be life-threatening)
• thrombocytopenic purpura
• severe cramping
• embolism (blood clots)
• medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
• diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
• mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
• serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
• hormonal imbalance
• ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
• broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
• hemorrhage and
• numerous other complications of delivery
• refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
• aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
• severe post-partum depression and psychosis
• research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
• research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
• research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

• peripartum cardiomyopathy
• cardiopulmonary arrest
• magnesium toxicity
• severe hypoxemia/acidosis
• massive embolism
• increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
• molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
  (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
• malignant arrhythmia
• circulatory collapse
• placental abruption
• obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:

• future infertility
• permanent disability
• death.

Was that that hard ?

Anyway considering the chance of each one in that list and their actual severity or lack of, the reply to

"So you support the infliction of severe bodily harm just because the person suffering it had sex to save an embryo?"

is yes.

[Oswor]

It's funny when you read the thread, pro-life but cap punishment? Never thought of it that way. As for me, personally, I am someone who doesnt like seeing life and potential wasted. They say its the mothers choice but thats only because they have to deliver and its not like the kid as any say in the matter. What I proposed in a class discussion was to limit abortion to stuff like rape, too busy or too poor to have the kid, or if they child will be born with a problem. As for cap punishment. I think if they did a crime that is the same as them dieing fare game. Although some crimes I think the guy/gal should be tortured until they beg for there lives. Man this is a long post.....

Her reason for having an abortion is none of your business.
Torture is bad.

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses. As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain? Although the one point I do agree with is that finding another person who can torture other people is a hard thing to ask of anybody.

[Blasveck]

Her reason for having an abortion is none of your business.
Torture is bad.

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses. As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain? Although the one point I do agree with is that finding another person who can torture other people is a hard thing to ask of anybody.

Torture is literally the shittiest and most terrible thing any human being can do.

And it is NEVER justified.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Her reason for having an abortion is none of your business.
Torture is bad.

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses. As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain? Although the one point I do agree with is that finding another person who can torture other people is a hard thing to ask of anybody.

Potential children do not have the right ti inhabit anyone's body without their permission, and any reason is reason enough to say that permission is not given. There is NO dumb reason, because all small reasons lead to the big reason -- "I choose not to."

And no, there is no justification for causing bodily harm to anyone except in the act of defense or detainment.

[Sociobiology]

Her reason for having an abortion is none of your business.
Torture is bad.

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses.

a potential child loses to an actual person.

As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain?

absolutely not, because I and most of the people on this thread are not psychopaths.

[Oswor]

E

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses.

a potential child loses to an actual person.

As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain?

absolutely not, because I and most of the people on this thread are not psychopaths.

I'm not talking about being a psycopath. It may seen crazy but look at all the rapists, serial killers, cult leaders ect who think they got away with it and have them smug looks on their faces. I just dont want them to have the satisfication to think they won. (Also I watch a lot of SVU)

[Oswor]

Of course those are your opinions and I respect them but I must argue with them. True her having an abortion is really, none of mu buseniess, yet when a potential child is at risk for a dumb reason then yes, it is mine, and many other businesses. As for torture think of it this way. If your family members we're hurt in a horrible way wouldnt you want to here the person who hurt your family feel the same pain? Although the one point I do agree with is that finding another person who can torture other people is a hard thing to ask of anybody.

Potential children do not have the right ti inhabit anyone's body without their permission, and any reason is reason enough to say that permission is not given. There is NO dumb reason, because all small reasons lead to the big reason -- "I choose not to."

And no, there is no justification for causing bodily harm to anyone except in the act of defense or detainment.

I'm not going to go and explain my reasoning for torture since that one is a touchy subject to a lot of people, but trust me if you watched SVU for as long as I have you would be on my side. Also for abortion, they never asked to be put in their. If your gonna blame someone blame the dude for blowing his load in there. As for reasoning. Come on, that's just stupid. "Every reason is justified", well I'm sorry to say but that's not true. What if a couple had consensual sex but they purposefully didn't wear protection and they understood the risks. What if they were getting rid of the child because they were impregnated by "another race" or something. You see there still many reasons that it's wrong. Again thou I would like to state that I do not wish to abolish abortion (that would only lead to self abortion where the mother does it herself or gets some shady person to do it) I just want to limit it. I just don't like hearing about how they take the child out and slit its throat, deprive it of oxygen, suck it up in a special type of vacuum cleaner (don't know what it is actually called) and again I don't like seeing potential wasted. It's idiotic.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Potential children do not have the right ti inhabit anyone's body without their permission, and any reason is reason enough to say that permission is not given. There is NO dumb reason, because all small reasons lead to the big reason -- "I choose not to."

And no, there is no justification for causing bodily harm to anyone except in the act of defense or detainment.

I'm not going to go and explain my reasoning for torture since that one is a touchy subject to a lot of people, but trust me if you watched SVU for as long as I have you would be on my side. Also for abortion, they never asked to be put in their. If your gonna blame someone blame the dude for blowing his load in there. As for reasoning. Come on, that's just stupid. "Every reason is justified", well I'm sorry to say but that's not true. What if a couple had consensual sex but they purposefully didn't wear protection and they understood the risks. What if they were getting rid of the child because they were impregnated by "another race" or something. You see there still many reasons that it's wrong. Again thou I would like to state that I do not wish to abolish abortion (that would only lead to self abortion where the mother does it herself or gets some shady person to do it) I just want to limit it. I just don't like hearing about how they take the child out and slit its throat, deprive it of oxygen, suck it up in a special type of vacuum cleaner (don't know what it is actually called) and again I don't like seeing potential wasted. It's idiotic.

First of all, I have watched every episode of SVU up until Meloni left. Still not on your side.
Second, I'm not blaming the fetus.
Third, people being stupid does not mean you can punish them for having sex with forced birth, which is absolutely slavery. No one deserves to be enslaved just because they did something you don't like. In the end, a woman should not be forced into pregnancy and childbirth just because you're squeamish.
And no, people do not give birth to a child and slit it's throat, you clearly know nothing of abortion procedures.

[Oppressorion]

I'm not going to go and explain my reasoning for torture since that one is a touchy subject to a lot of people, but trust me if you watched SVU for as long as I have you would be on my side.

Despite agreeing with your point of view...

Seriously? Did you just admit that your moral values were based on a fictional TV show? You know that watching a show where the suspects are almost invariably evil and police almost invariably right (and would be even better if those pesky 'civil rights' didn't get in the way) tends to give one a very biased POV, right? It's important for even the most avowed Communist to read Atlas Shrugged at least once, if only to understand their opposing view.

[Oswor]

I'm not going to go and explain my reasoning for torture since that one is a touchy subject to a lot of people, but trust me if you watched SVU for as long as I have you would be on my side. Also for abortion, they never asked to be put in their. If your gonna blame someone blame the dude for blowing his load in there. As for reasoning. Come on, that's just stupid. "Every reason is justified", well I'm sorry to say but that's not true. What if a couple had consensual sex but they purposefully didn't wear protection and they understood the risks. What if they were getting rid of the child because they were impregnated by "another race" or something. You see there still many reasons that it's wrong. Again thou I would like to state that I do not wish to abolish abortion (that would only lead to self abortion where the mother does it herself or gets some shady person to do it) I just want to limit it. I just don't like hearing about how they take the child out and slit its throat, deprive it of oxygen, suck it up in a special type of vacuum cleaner (don't know what it is actually called) and again I don't like seeing potential wasted. It's idiotic.

First of all, I have watched every episode of SVU up until Meloni left. Still not on your side.
Second, I'm not blaming the fetus.
Third, people being stupid does not mean you can punish them for having sex with forced birth, which is absolutely slavery. No one deserves to be enslaved just because they did something you don't like. In the end, a woman should not be forced into pregnancy and childbirth just because you're squeamish.
And no, people do not give birth to a child and slit it's throat, you clearly know nothing of abortion procedures.

It sure sounded like you were blaming the fetus but since you weren't we can go past that. You don't understand the stupid part you think that everything is all flowers and sweets and everything nice. Well it's not. If someone had full knowledge of the risks of not having protection and were being an inconceivable idiot and they got knocked up than at least go threw with it, it's the least they can do for being so freaking stupid in the first place (also just want to point this out now if they guy was wearing a condom or the chick was on birth control and she still got knocked up I would be a lot more lenient because at least they had protection). Also I'm not squeamish except when it comes to stuff like killing an unborn kid so I'm so so sorry. You need to look on the news to. Silting a baby's throat might not be the procedure that they advertise or do all the time but look at the guy who got away with doing it for long periods of time! It might have been a extreme case but are you an abortion doctor? Do you do that kind of stuff? Didn't think so. One last thing, since they usually don't allow an abortion after a certain amount of time it's ok/not ok. Good they can't feel it but then again all arguments are null and void so it's a hard issue to discuss. This has really drained me and I'm on the point of a meltdown and I don't want that so let's call a truce. You have some good points. I have some good points. Maybe someone will come here and read both our posts and change things. Who knows.

[Oswor]

I'm not going to go and explain my reasoning for torture since that one is a touchy subject to a lot of people, but trust me if you watched SVU for as long as I have you would be on my side.

Despite agreeing with your point of view...

Seriously? Did you just admit that your moral values were based on a fictional TV show? You know that watching a show where the suspects are almost invariably evil and police almost invariably right (and would be even better if those pesky 'civil rights' didn't get in the way) tends to give one a very biased POV, right? It's important for even the most avowed Communist to read Atlas Shrugged at least once, if only to understand their opposing view.

I really should have seen this coming. Yes I know I based it off something fictional but come on. There are what...6 billion people in the world? You can't tell me none of those story's hits close to home for anybody? I like to keep an open mind and I only used that because of what I just said. Plus, I'm not a communist, and never will be. I'm independent threw and threw and I will stay that way. I just have certain opinions about certain things that might be a little more drastic that others so I try to keep things in line or at least have some reasoning to back me up.

[Union Of Canadorian Socialists Republic]

I find it amusing that Australasia is opposed to bigotry, and yet is anti-Islam

[Oppressorion]

Despite agreeing with your point of view...

Seriously? Did you just admit that your moral values were based on a fictional TV show? You know that watching a show where the suspects are almost invariably evil and police almost invariably right (and would be even better if those pesky 'civil rights' didn't get in the way) tends to give one a very biased POV, right? It's important for even the most avowed Communist to read Atlas Shrugged at least once, if only to understand their opposing view.

I really should have seen this coming. Yes I know I based it off something fictional but come on. There are what...6 billion people in the world? You can't tell me none of those story's hits close to home for anybody? I like to keep an open mind and I only used that because of what I just said. Plus, I'm not a communist, and never will be. I'm independent threw and threw and I will stay that way. I just have certain opinions about certain things that might be a little more drastic that others so I try to keep things in line or at least have some reasoning to back me up.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to enjoy L&O or have views similar to the ones it expresses. I'm saying that it's a bad idea to base your views on a show that has a very skewed portrayal of the world. I'm also saying that it's important to experience the other point of view, through literature or otherwise, and not lock yourself in an echo chamber.

[Aethrys]

Life imprisonment as a penalty is an idiotic sentence. And a horrible waste of resources. The sensible thing to do is abolish it, and rewrite laws to substitute former life penalties for execution. People complain about how "But death penalties cost more money" but that's not a real excuse, as it's just a problem of the way we handle executions being inefficient. Just need to cut out the fat present in the system, and find every possible way to save resources from the time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, to the time the sentence is handed down, and the time til it is carried out.

It might be worth investigating whether it would be more cost effective to do group executions rather than one at a time, weigh the cost of holding the human refuse until there are a sufficient number to eliminate vs the cost of doing it one at a time.

[Ceannairceach]

Life imprisonment as a penalty is an idiotic sentence. And a horrible waste of resources. The sensible thing to do is abolish it, and rewrite laws to substitute former life penalties for execution. People complain about how "But death penalties cost more money" but that's not a real excuse, as it's just a problem of the way we handle executions being inefficient. Just need to cut out the fat present in the system, and find every possible way to save resources from the time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, to the time the sentence is handed down, and the time til it is carried out.

It might be worth investigating whether it would be more cost effective to do group executions rather than one at a time, weigh the cost of holding the human refuse until there are a sufficient number to eliminate vs the cost of doing it one at a time.

Quicker executions means innocents will be thrown into the pot. Fuck that noise, I'm not dying to sate your bloodlust.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

First of all, I have watched every episode of SVU up until Meloni left. Still not on your side.
Second, I'm not blaming the fetus.
Third, people being stupid does not mean you can punish them for having sex with forced birth, which is absolutely slavery. No one deserves to be enslaved just because they did something you don't like. In the end, a woman should not be forced into pregnancy and childbirth just because you're squeamish.
And no, people do not give birth to a child and slit it's throat, you clearly know nothing of abortion procedures.

It sure sounded like you were blaming the fetus but since you weren't we can go past that. You don't understand the stupid part you think that everything is all flowers and sweets and everything nice. Well it's not. If someone had full knowledge of the risks of not having protection and were being an inconceivable idiot and they got knocked up than at least go threw with it, it's the least they can do for being so freaking stupid in the first place (also just want to point this out now if they guy was wearing a condom or the chick was on birth control and she still got knocked up I would be a lot more lenient because at least they had protection). Also I'm not squeamish except when it comes to stuff like killing an unborn kid so I'm so so sorry. You need to look on the news to. Silting a baby's throat might not be the procedure that they advertise or do all the time but look at the guy who got away with doing it for long periods of time! It might have been a extreme case but are you an abortion doctor? Do you do that kind of stuff? Didn't think so. One last thing, since they usually don't allow an abortion after a certain amount of time it's ok/not ok. Good they can't feel it but then again all arguments are null and void so it's a hard issue to discuss. This has really drained me and I'm on the point of a meltdown and I don't want that so let's call a truce. You have some good points. I have some good points. Maybe someone will come here and read both our posts and change things. Who knows.

Once again, people making a bad decision is no reason to enslave women and punish them with children and child birth. Sex is not a crime.
And do you mean the guy who is convicted of murder? Because what he did wasn't legal and not approved by anyone.
And no, you don't have any good points.

[Aethrys]

Life imprisonment as a penalty is an idiotic sentence. And a horrible waste of resources. The sensible thing to do is abolish it, and rewrite laws to substitute former life penalties for execution. People complain about how "But death penalties cost more money" but that's not a real excuse, as it's just a problem of the way we handle executions being inefficient. Just need to cut out the fat present in the system, and find every possible way to save resources from the time a prosecutor seeks the death penalty, to the time the sentence is handed down, and the time til it is carried out.

It might be worth investigating whether it would be more cost effective to do group executions rather than one at a time, weigh the cost of holding the human refuse until there are a sufficient number to eliminate vs the cost of doing it one at a time.

Quicker executions means innocents will be thrown into the pot. Fuck that noise, I'm not dying to sate your bloodlust.

It's not bloodlust, it's keeping society safe while also adhering to fiscally responsible practices. The ultimate goal is to remove those who cannot be rehabilitated permanently in a way that doesn't result in more wasted resources than those they have already destroyed through their crimes.

And to avoid being executed, you just have to not be a murderer/serial rapist/other equally heinous individual.

[Frisivisia]

Quicker executions means innocents will be thrown into the pot. Fuck that noise, I'm not dying to sate your bloodlust.

It's not bloodlust, it's keeping society safe while also adhering to fiscally responsible practices. The ultimate goal is to remove those who cannot be rehabilitated permanently in a way that doesn't result in more wasted resources than those they have already destroyed through their crimes.

And to avoid being executed, you just have to not be a murderer/serial rapist/other equally heinous individual.

Or be wrongfully convicted of being such.

[The Shadow Brotherhood]

It is not Ironic.

There are completely different questions involved. Children have pain impulses and can even be taught games inside of the womb at 23 weeks. Children have been scientifically proven to be conscious at five months. However, the brainstem doesn't even form at until seven months.

The difference between the two is this:

With abortion, they are getting the consequences of someone else's stupid decision. With the death penalty, they are getting the consequences of their own actions.

Abortion should be allowed in SPECIFIC cases, but all clinics should be up to surgical standards. We don't want to facilitate what happens in the alleys.

Sources: http://www.eheart.com/cesarean/babies.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/2013/04/when ... -conscious
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/aborti ... nmyths.htm