Gun Bans

[Caninope]

I'll take a gander at why you agree with me. I get the feeling that you, like me, think that there's absolutely nothing wrong with people like my dad simply because he has two hunting rifles and three hunting shotguns. You think there's absolutely nothing wrong with people like my granddad with multiple shotguns, rifles, and handguns (and had more before they were stolen about a decade ago)

When a criminal stole his guns (by burglary I presume?) they got more than one.

That's a problem right there.

Yes, robbery is a problem. I'm glad we agree.

It's not personal. Stop trying to make it personal.

That's the thing though. It is personal for me. It cannot be anything other than personal. Guns are an essential part of my identity. They were in my household growing up, and I plan on getting some myself whenever I can.

[AiliailiA]

The constitution says "arms" not "guns".

I could say it guarantees a right to own knives or pikes. You could say it guarantees a right to own chemical weapons or nukes. Obviously, some compromise is called for.

Private ownership of nuclear weapons is legal is 47 states.

Seriously?

[AiliailiA]

When a criminal stole his guns (by burglary I presume?) they got more than one.

That's a problem right there.

Yes, robbery is a problem. I'm glad we agree.

We don't agree. You're being obtuse: deliberately avoiding my point. I won't bother repeating it.

Was it burglary or robbery?

[Caninope]

Private ownership of nuclear weapons is legal is 47 states.

Seriously?

There's nothing banning it explicitly, I don't think.

However, the only way to access the materials would be through illegal means, plus the making of the nuclear weapon itself would violate a quadrillion environmental laws.

[Nua Corda]

Private ownership of nuclear weapons is legal is 47 states.

Seriously?

Yup.

[Farnhamia]

Seriously?

Yup.

Or is it simply not illegal?

[Caninope]

Yes, robbery is a problem. I'm glad we agree.

We don't agree. You're being obtuse: deliberately avoiding my point. I won't bother repeating it.

Was it burglary or robbery?

It was both.

Burglary, in the US, is the act of breaking into a location with the intent of committing a felony. It's otherwise known as breaking and entering. Robbery (or it's various forms, like larceny) is the unlawful taking of property.

[Caninope]

Yup.

Or is it simply not illegal?

It's not illegal.

However it's not legal, because access to the materials in any significant amount essentially takes illegal means (not to mention the environmental laws).

[Nua Corda]

Yup.

Or is it simply not illegal?

And thus de facto legal.

[Caninope]

Or is it simply not illegal?

And thus de facto legal.

No. It's de facto illegal, given everything.

[AiliailiA]

Seriously?

There's nothing banning it explicitly, I don't think.

However, the only way to access the materials would be through illegal means, plus the making of the nuclear weapon itself would violate a quadrillion environmental laws.

I suspect that would be invoked to prevent someone importing an already-existent nuclear weapon. "Nope, you can't have that because it's got plutonium in it"

[Farnhamia]

Or is it simply not illegal?

It's not illegal.

However it's not legal, because access to the materials in any significant amount essentially takes illegal means (not to mention the environmental laws).

Right, like drinking alcohol during Prohibition wasn't illegal, but making or importing it it for sale was.

[Caninope]

It's not illegal.

However it's not legal, because access to the materials in any significant amount essentially takes illegal means (not to mention the environmental laws).

Right, like drinking alcohol during Prohibition wasn't illegal, but making or importing it it for sale was.

Except even more so.

[AiliailiA]

We don't agree. You're being obtuse: deliberately avoiding my point. I won't bother repeating it.

Was it burglary or robbery?

It was both.

Burglary, in the US, is the act of breaking into a location with the intent of committing a felony. It's otherwise known as breaking and entering. Robbery (or it's various forms, like larceny) is the unlawful taking of property.

I'm sure you have a dictionary defining "robbery" to cover burglary, but I'm going with the FBI's definition thanks. They consider it a violent crime (crime against the person) whereas burglary is a property crime.

So his house was burgled when he wasn't there, and all his guns were stolen?

[Farnhamia]

Right, like drinking alcohol during Prohibition wasn't illegal, but making or importing it it for sale was.

Except even more so.

Well, yeah.

[Greed and Death]

It was both.

Burglary, in the US, is the act of breaking into a location with the intent of committing a felony. It's otherwise known as breaking and entering. Robbery (or it's various forms, like larceny) is the unlawful taking of property.

I'm sure you have a dictionary defining "robbery" to cover burglary, but I'm going with the FBI's definition thanks. They consider it a violent crime (crime against the person) whereas burglary is a property crime.

So his house was burgled when he wasn't there, and all his guns were stolen?

It is a silly thing to argue about.
Do you know why ? Every state in the country defines it differently.

The only time you may need to know the difference is if you go to law school, your 1st semester of law school, where your crim-law professor may give you a few points for knowing the difference in the common law 100 years ago.

Luckily my law professor realized such distinctions were stupid, and told us to read the statute.

[Caninope]

It was both.

Burglary, in the US, is the act of breaking into a location with the intent of committing a felony. It's otherwise known as breaking and entering. Robbery (or it's various forms, like larceny) is the unlawful taking of property.

I'm sure you have a dictionary defining "robbery" to cover burglary, but I'm going with the FBI's definition thanks. They consider it a violent crime (crime against the person) whereas burglary is a property crime.

So his house was burgled when he wasn't there, and all his guns were stolen?

No, he was there. It was in the middle of the night, and he got up to go investigate the situation, only to catch the two as they were leaving. Given the fact that the criminals had guns, and he had a gun (near his bedside), I'm not sure what the prosecutor would have charged them with, had they been apprehended. An argument could be made for either robbery or larceny.

[Iseran]

My country, Belgium, has some of the strictest arms control laws in the world (even pepper spray is illegal) and has seen five mass killings over the last four years, four of which targeted young children and one of which resulted in over 125 casualties.
This country is so dangerous that i have been robbed three times in broad daylight (once at knife point), i have seen a youth gang vandalize a truck with metal pipes while they hurled abuse at the terrified driver, i have witnessed two armed robberies, i have heard of 3 home invasions taking place in my street over the last year and i have been threatened in public on countless occasions, all in what is supposedly a "safe" part of the country.

Upon conducting some research i discovered that Europe is much worse off than the united states in terms of violent crime, in fact two European nations (the UK and Austria) are so bad that they are worse off than South Africa.
After a brief comparison it becomes obvious that European countries which have virtually banned self-defense such as Belgium, the Netherlands and the UK have extremely high crime rates while the countries which allow individuals to carry weapons (i.e pepper spray) for self defense in addition to having more relaxed gun laws such as Switzerland, Hungary and the Czech republic have very low crime rates.
The same situation can be found in Asia, where we can see that middle-eastern countries with very lax gun laws such as Saudi Arabia have very low crime rates, while other Asian countries with strict gun control such as the PRC have very high crime (and suicide) rates.
Ditto for America, where we can see that the USA with it's lax gun control has a much lower crime rate than the Latin American nations with strict gun control.


The only logical conclusion is that legalizing armed self-defense (not necessarily with firearms, but at the very least with less-lethal weapons such as pepper spray) will lower violent crime rates significantly.


Americans: please don't give up your guns, otherwise you will end up like us; having to fight for the right to defend yourselves against junkies and sadists with pepper spray.

sources:

http://libertarianhome.co.uk/2012/12/uk ... us-states/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... a-U-S.html (notice how all of the countries in the "hall of shame" either ban or severely restrict self-defense)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 ... rol-lobby/

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ ... ted-898817 (unreported crime in the UK, specifically manchester)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... urope.html (shows how crime rates increased under socialist governments who tightened gun control)

[The Black Forrest]

Junkies and sadists? Sounds like a party.

[The Corparation]

[citation needed]

[Thafoo]

My country, Belgium, has some of the strictest arms control laws in the world (even pepper spray is illegal) and has seen five mass killings over the last four years, four of which targeted young children and one of which resulted in over 125 casualties.
This country is so dangerous that i have been robbed three times in broad daylight (once at knife point), i have seen a youth gang vandalize a truck with metal pipes while they hurled abuse at the terrified driver, i have witnessed two armed robberies, i have heard of 3 home invasions taking place in my street over the last year and i have been threatened in public on countless occasions, all in what is supposedly a "safe" part of the country.

Upon conducting some research i discovered that Europe is much worse off than the united states in terms of violent crime, in fact two European nations (the UK and Austria) are so bad that they are worse off than South Africa.
After a brief comparison it becomes obvious that European countries which have virtually banned self-defense such as Belgium, the Netherlands and the UK have extremely high crime rates while the countries which allow individuals to carry weapons (i.e pepper spray) for self defense in addition to having more relaxed gun laws such as Switzerland, Hungary and the Czech republic have very low crime rates.
The same situation can be found in Asia, where we can see that middle-eastern countries with very lax gun laws such as Saudi Arabia have very low crime rates, while other Asian countries with strict gun control such as the PRC have very high crime (and suicide) rates.
Ditto for America, where we can see that the USA with it's lax gun control has a much lower crime rate than the Latin American nations with strict gun control.


The only logical conclusion is that legalizing armed self-defense (not necessarily with firearms, but at the very least with less-lethal weapons such as pepper spray) will lower violent crime rates significantly.


Americans: please don't give up your guns, otherwise you will end up like us; having to fight for the right to defend yourselves against junkies and sadists with pepper spray.

I don't see the harm in illegalizing assault weapons. A pistol may be a good defense weapon. A bushmaster is like using a minefield to defend against a few wolves.

[Avenio]

The statistics don't agree with you, OP, because the US - contrary to your theory - doesn't have the lowest crime rates in the OECD, In fact, it's generally in the top 10 of any given category, in fact. Countries that have relatively restrictive gun control measures (at least compared to the US), like Finland and Germany, all sit at the very low end of crime rates - alongside countries one wouldn't normally expect to be so low, like Turkey or the former Soviet Baltic states.

So yeah. Crime is a complex thing, and one can't pick the arbitrary political talking point du jour, whether that be immigration or gun control or education or anything else and blame it all on that without running into enormous predictive issues.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

It's quite interesting to note that while statistics for other crimes such as robbery and assault tend to place America in the realm of normalcy, homicide remains the most distinct outlier. One has to wonder whether it is the American's weapon of choice in those crimes that contributes to the disparity, not the "we have problems with our culture" argument I often hear trotted out by the pro-gun lobby.

[Cannot think of a name]

Oh good, it's about guns. I was afraid we'd have to talk about something else for half a second...

[Genivaria]

Oh good, it's about guns. I was afraid we'd have to talk about something else for half a second...

God damnit you owe me a new Sarcasm detector.