Capitalism vs. Communism

[DuThaal Craftworld]

COMMIE COMMIE COMMIE!

[Sociobiology]

if all this is true, you are no longer talking about the real world, because there are things that will always be scarce.


I have more to invest in my offspring.
Its not a question of rationality.

I disagree.
We're already rapidly approaching post-scarcity in a number of ways.
Water is now post-scarcity in most areas, and can be provided "For free." to everyone.

and incredibly scarce in others.
in fact overall scarcity of water is increasing.

And yet no one wastes it simply to waste it.

but they do waste it for all kinds of reasons, some as simply as because its free and you can't tell me what to do.

Yes, occasionally there are droughts and horror of horrors, there is a hose pipe ban and everyone ignores it and the water still doesn't run out.

actually it does, but its nice to see the out of sight out of mind mentality in action.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/drought/story/2012-08-14/drought-dry-wells/57054870/1

Another example is food. In the west, we're basically post-scarcity on bread, eggs, and milk, but the supermarkets still stock them because everyone uses bread, eggs, and milk. They LOSE MONEY selling these things because they are so plentiful and cheap, but they want people to come to the store for them so they buy other shit.

because those things use the most common elements on the planet, most metals are naturally scarce.

[Empire of Vlissingen]

The most advanced socities in the world are a mix of Capitalism and Communism just look at Germany and Netherlands.

'Advanced' in terms of what criteria?

Rich
Great economy
free
and a lot more than that.

[Sociobiology]

'Advanced' in terms of what criteria?

Rich
Great economy
free
and a lot more than that.

standard of living
health
crime
child and infant mortality

[Democratic Republic of the Triumvirate]

No but slavery can exist under capitalism and can't exist under (true) communism.
Also debt bondage can be classed as a form of slavery.

If debt bondage is slavery, then the American people are screwed, courtesy of the federal govt.

See little box on the bottom right titled US unfunded liabilities for specifics.

The whole country is property of the federal reserve and a few wealth companies.

[Kabab]

Both have their merits, but communism doesen't work here because of one key problem: humans.

[Democratic Republic of the Triumvirate]

Capitalist societies have proven to be more free and more prosperous. It's a hands down win for capitalism.

Of course, the communists will claim that no true communist society (at least on a national scale) has ever existed. While it is true, it is also true that the leaders of those societies, for the most part, did believe in communism, and did attempt to establish it. Through force.

Iraq was invaded due to capitalism.
Hmmm...Afghanistan was invaded by communist Russia. But then, was that due to a need created by communist ideology?
Capitalism tends to result in richer countries like the US and UK taking everything from poorer countries. This is why they prosper.
Communism is (as is always said) good in theory but corrupts those whose responsibility it is to take care of everyone. Maybe it would work if there was a mechanism in place to prevent this but then how would it be done?
Under capitalism it seems that the government is nearly always controlled by the rich, the bankers, the corporations which is contrary to democracy.
I think I lean toward communism but it isn't perfect.

[Jassysworth 1]

Capitalist societies have proven to be more free and more prosperous. It's a hands down win for capitalism.

Of course, the communists will claim that no true communist society (at least on a national scale) has ever existed. While it is true, it is also true that the leaders of those societies, for the most part, did believe in communism, and did attempt to establish it. Through force.

Iraq was invaded due to capitalism.
Hmmm...Afghanistan was invaded by communist Russia. But then, was that due to a need created by communist ideology?
Capitalism tends to result in richer countries like the US and UK taking everything from poorer countries. This is why they prosper.
Communism is (as is always said) good in theory but corrupts those whose responsibility it is to take care of everyone. Maybe it would work if there was a mechanism in place to prevent this but then how would it be done?
Under capitalism it seems that the government is nearly always controlled by the rich, the bankers, the corporations which is contrary to democracy.
I think I lean toward communism but it isn't perfect.

except there's no guarantee that a system that starts out communist or socialist or communist-inspired won't end up with the rich exercising a great deal of control over the government.

This may well be a given with governments... that they are always in some way more disproportionately influenced by those who are the richest and most powerful. Communism makes a big assumption, that it can successfully get rid of social classes. This is something that has never been achieved in the modern age and if you use common sense, can never really be achieved without perhaps going back to a more primitive age (though even this is hugely improbable)...

[Democratic Republic of the Triumvirate]

Iraq was invaded due to capitalism.
Hmmm...Afghanistan was invaded by communist Russia. But then, was that due to a need created by communist ideology?
Capitalism tends to result in richer countries like the US and UK taking everything from poorer countries. This is why they prosper.
Communism is (as is always said) good in theory but corrupts those whose responsibility it is to take care of everyone. Maybe it would work if there was a mechanism in place to prevent this but then how would it be done?
Under capitalism it seems that the government is nearly always controlled by the rich, the bankers, the corporations which is contrary to democracy.
I think I lean toward communism but it isn't perfect.

except there's no guarantee that a system that starts out communist or socialist or communist-inspired won't end up with the rich exercising a great deal of control over the government.

This may well be a given with governments... that they are always in some way more disproportionately influenced by those who are the richest and most powerful. Communism makes a big assumption, that it can successfully get rid of social classes. This is something that has never been achieved in the modern age and if you use common sense, can never really be achieved without perhaps going back to a more primitive age (though even this is hugely improbable)...

It seems they are both hugely flawed.

[Luveria]

Communism is (as is always said) good in theory but corrupts those whose responsibility it is to take care of everyone.

Communist isn't always said to be good in theory. Communist theory is as dogmatic as religious texts.

[New Ravenrock]

Neither

[Blakk Metal]

Slavery is not Capitalism.

No but slavery can exist under capitalism and can't exist under (true) communism.
Also debt bondage can be classed as a form of slavery.

Chattel slavery is not capitalism and central planning is not communism.

[Harkback Union]

Just reposting

Not only that but due to central planning being so wasteful and inefficient it would inevitably lower the living standards of the majority as the byproduct of a weaker economy.

Because central planning is inevitably wasteful and communists are all stupid and don't understand economics... yeah... It totally makes sense, just take a look at USSR. 4000$ /capita is they've got after 68 years of development! Hah! Never mind that in 1922 Russia was an Illiterate impoverished peasant society with little educated populace or Industry, just devastated by world war one and a bloody civil war... Never mind that for almost 3 decades the USSR was lead by a psychopath who Executed a majority of competent leaders and Intellectuals, Never mind that half of the Soviet Infrastructure was completely obliterated in World war 2 and a quarter of the population was killed, Never mind that even after Stalin's death, the soviet political system still remained corrupt, Never mind that the USSR spent on average 30% of it's economy on it's military because it's irrelevant! Corruption, War, High military spending, Resource shortages, Droughts, harsh weather and the lack of skilled labor has nothing to do with how efficient an economy is!!!!!
Or that's not what you think? Than maybe...
Corruption, War, High military spending, Resource shortages, Droughts, harsh weather and the lack of skilled labor is the direct consequence of a centrally planned economy!!!!
Or you have another explanation?

Also Never mind that since 1990 economic output and living standards have declined in Russia... A lot...

Now about Kengburg...
What do you think the government does with all that money? Don't you think that they might spend their money too? Maybe... for paying teachers? Your calculations do not make sense if you discount goverment GDP...
By the way, it doesn't make sense to regionally "redistribute" GDP since Much of it comes from commerce and finance (especially in developed nations) which does not represent living standard improving goods or services, It's just fake economy used to make money out of tossing money around... to make money. (You could use this part of the GDP to buy stuff from foreign countries tough... but if you use it internally, it will just inflate prices)
It would make more sense to redistribute globally...
Let's see... 50% of the world's population live on 2% of world GDP and the top 20% consumes 80% of the world's resources, thus producing roughly 80% of greenhouse gas emissions... Global warming hurts the poorest nation's agriculture the most, so it would only make sense to say... take 10% of the wealth of the richest 1 percent, who by the way profit from 40% of the world's wealth.
Now, the poorest 50% can live on 3 times as much as before! I'm sure they will be very happy, while the richest one percent will have little to complain about...

[Marzlbur]

I used to believe capitalism was the only way to go, but lately I've thought about it and now I'm towards sort of mix of the two, if not a total communism. True communism allows for a more economy for everyone involved, as everyone has equal burdens and equal wealth.

[Conscentia]

The most advanced socities in the world are a mix of Capitalism and Communism just look at Germany and Netherlands.

Those words... do you know even know what they mean?

[Lerodan Chinamerica]

Communism is a childish fantasy, capitalism is neccessary for human development and growth.

[Conscentia]

Communism is a childish fantasy, capitalism is neccessary for human development and growth^{[citation needed]}.

How so?

[Sassinia]

Communism. Debate closed.

[Evbrus]

"The Internationale"

Arise, prisoners of hunger!
Arise, the damned of the earth!
Reason thunders in its crater,
‘Tis the eruption of the end.
Let’s make a clean slate of the past,
Enslaved mass, arise, arise!
The world’s foundation will change,
We are nothing, now let’s be all!

There are no supreme saviors,
Neither God, nor Caesar nor tribune;
Producers, let us save ourselves,
We decree common salvation!
So that the thief should offer us his throat
So that spirit be wrested from its cell,
Let us fan the forge’s flames ourselves
And strike while the iron is hot.

The state represses, the law cheats,
Taxes bleed the poor;
No duties are imposed on the rich,
The rights of the poor are empty words,
We have languished long enough under domination,
Equality wants other laws:
“No rights without duties,” it says
“Equals, there are no duties without rights.”

Hideous in their apotheosis,
The kings of mines and rails,
Have they ever done aught
But rob from labor?
In the safes of that gang
What is created is smelted,
By decreeing that they turn it over
The people only want what is their due.

Kings intoxicated us with smoke,
Peace among us, war on tyrants!
Let’s apply the strike to armies,
Rifle butts raised on high and breaking ranks.
And if they insist, those cannibals,
On making heroes of us,
They’ll soon learn that our bullets
Are for our own generals.

Workers, farmers, we are
The great party of the workers,
The earth belongs only to men,
Idlers can go someplace else.
How many on our flesh eat their fill?
But if the ravens, the vultures
One morning disappeared
The sun would shine still!

‘Tis the final conflict
Let us unite and tomorrow,
The Internationale
Will be the human race

This song is the athem for all Socialist(Communist).

[The Rising Sun Katana]

My nation spent 4 years teaching me to shoot communists. I wonder if that was consistent with the core values of "Freedom of Speech" and "All men are created equal"? Hmmmm......

[Jassysworth 1]

Communism is a childish fantasy, capitalism is neccessary for human development and growth^{[citation needed]}.

How so?

Stateless, classless, and moneyless society...

that can't work unless you want to go back to the Stone Age; none of it is practical in the least...

Use your common sense. What does a stateless, classless, and moneyless society lead to? The complete deconstruction of every major pillar of civilized and orderly society. You'll get a civil war and anarchy until a new state is formed. You'll go a full circle with everyone being worse off because of the interlude of bloodshed.

[Sassinia]

How so?

Stateless, classless, and moneyless society...

that can't work unless you want to go back to the Stone Age; none of it is practical in the least...

Use your common sense. What does a stateless, classless, and moneyless society lead to? The complete deconstruction of every major pillar of civilized and orderly society. You'll get a civil war and anarchy until a new state is formed. You'll go a full circle with everyone being worse off because of the interlude of bloodshed.

You're Linderman's puppet, aren't you?

[Conscentia]

How so?

Stateless, classless, and moneyless society...

that can't work unless you want to go back to the Stone Age; none of it is practical in the least...

Use your common sense. What does a stateless, classless, and moneyless society lead to? The complete deconstruction of every major pillar of civilized and orderly society. You'll get a civil war and anarchy until a new state is formed. You'll go a full circle with everyone being worse off because of the interlude of bloodshed.

I wasn't talking to you.

[Chyprus]

Wait, do you know what's communism?: no state, no classes, freedom, equality...
USSR or any other country, communist? Not even socialist, because socialism is direct worker's control of the means of production.
This existed, but on anarchist societies (Spanish Revolution/Spanish Civil War and some communes).
Marxism-leninism isn't communism, Juche isn't communism, Maoism isn't communism, they have different names for some reason.
And there is a video of Noam Chomsky talking about the USSR and Socialism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJb1xxwl81E

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

How so?

Stateless, classless, and moneyless society...

that can't work unless you want to go back to the Stone Age;^{[citation needed]} none of it is practical in the least^{[citation needed]}...

Use your common sense^{"Common sense" is the last appeal of the individual with no argument.}. What does a stateless, classless, and moneyless society lead to? The complete deconstruction of every major pillar of civilized and orderly society.^{[citation needed]} You'll get a civil war and anarchy until a new state is formed.^{[citation needed]} You'll go a full circle with everyone being worse off because of the interlude of bloodshed.^{[citation needed]}

Any evidence to support any of this?

The most advanced socities in the world are a mix of Capitalism and Communism just look at Germany and Netherlands.

This post made me want to cry.