Advertisement
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:30 pm
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:34 pm
Jocabia wrote:I had my foreskin removed when I was a child. It was against my will. It was medically unnecessary. It was harmful in that it denied me my foreskin. It was removed before my foreskin had separated from my glans, so it was done by cutting the foreskin itself and then tearing it away from the glans, not only denying me a foreskin, but also damaging my glans. This wasn't a side-effect. It was normal way that the procedure is performed in a hospital. Again, to no medical benefit.
I had a body part removed against my will. My parents both would make a different decision today if they'd had better information. However, it needn't have been their decision. The decision could have been made by me when I was old enough or by them if it became medically urgent. Neither of these things happened.
I don't blame my parents for not knowing better, so this isn't about being angry at them. However, if you claim that having a healthy, normal body part removed from me is not harm, then I'll suggest a place where we can meet and I can choose any number of body parts I don't find necessary and remove them. Don't worry, I promise to take every reasonable measure to deal with your pain that was taken during my circumcision. You let me if you life it I committed assault.
The requirement is not that I prove that there is some medical harm (beyond the obvious harm of removing a healthy body part from a child). If you want to conduct an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a child that irreparably removes a part of their body, you're going to need a better reason than "well, it might have at one time had a minor impact on totally preventable issues" or "it might prevent a disease you'll only get when you're old enough to make a decision yourself" or "it might help with an unlikely disorder that can be solved if it ever occurs".
See, my foreskin wasn't removed because I'm Jewish. It was removed because we made it a political issue in the US and politically attacked pediatric associations for recommending the ending the practice (as a prevention method). However, my great uncles and all the men before that generation had it removed as a religious practice and, frankly, that is no better. We consider FIRST whether one has a right to bodily autonomy and THEN respect religious rights and practices. I, personally, believe that I deserved the right to grow up intact except where medically unavoidable. My parents were meant to be surrogates for me during a time when I was not old enough to make decisions for myself. They were meant to make decisions for me that were necessary to get me safely and responsibly to adulthood. I was not their slave and they did not have a right to conduct whatever random rituals they like to my body.
If a religious reason is adequate then any reason should be adequate. Why shouldn't I be allowed to tattoo the faces of my children or cut of their earlobes or simply do whatever process of scarring or cutting their body I choose so long as it's not more dangerous than circumcision and so long as it doesn't prevent the use of a "vital" body part as defined by circumcision advocates. So advocates, do I have the right to tattoo the faces of my children? Do I have the right to cut off their earlobes? Can I get liposuction for my toddlers? What makes cutting off a part of the penis so special?
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:51 pm
by Dazchan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:51 pm
Veladio wrote:No Water No Moon wrote:
Wait, what?
Smegma is a problem?
First, no. You might as well argue that mucus is a problem.
Second, once again, the argument for circumcision is that some people might be too lazy to wash their cocks.
Regarding phimosis: Surgery is unnecessary."Concernant ma clientèle de ville plusieurs dizaines d'adolescents ont reçu les mêmes conseils et je constate qu'en 15 ans d'exercice, je n'ai jamais conduit au chirurgien un seul de mes patients."
Uh...for those of us who don't speak...what ever that is, could you please explain?
by NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:01 pm
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:I am very angry at my mother and my father, who both agreed to it on my behalf and both wouldve done the same thing today.
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:02 pm
by NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:06 pm
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:08 pm
by Camicon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:09 pm
Country of glowing hearts, and patrons of the artsThe Trews, Under The Sun
Help me out
Star spangled madness, united sadness
Count me out
No human is more human than any other. - Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire
Don't shine for swine. - Metric, Soft Rock Star
Love is hell. Hell is love. Hell is asking to be loved. - Emily Haines and the Soft Skeleton, Detective Daughter
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:12 pm
by Glorious Panem » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:14 pm
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm
Glorious Panem wrote:Fun Fact for Fun only: Did you know that circumcision can help protect against certain STD's later in life? STD's like herpes, HPV and HIV?
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.
I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?
by Camicon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.
I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?
Country of glowing hearts, and patrons of the artsThe Trews, Under The Sun
Help me out
Star spangled madness, united sadness
Count me out
No human is more human than any other. - Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire
Don't shine for swine. - Metric, Soft Rock Star
Love is hell. Hell is love. Hell is asking to be loved. - Emily Haines and the Soft Skeleton, Detective Daughter
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:19 pm
Glorious Panem wrote:Fun Fact for Fun only: Did you know that circumcision can help protect against certain STD's later in life? STD's like herpes, HPV and HIV?
by Blakk Metal » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:27 pm
Risottia wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:Your argument is based on the fact that unless it is necessary, undeveloped, irrational brains should make permanent choices about their body.
Strawman.
The argument here in favour of the German ruling has consistently been that "unless it is necessary, developed, rational brains don't get to enforce permanent-effect surgery on the body of other people temporarily entrusted to their care".
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:Other main arguments: Doing it for religious reasons is wrong.
Other strawman. The argument was "religious opinion of the custodian doesn't trump the imaginary rights of the minor".
Risottia wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote: The STATE should decide! Who needs parents anyway? All children should be wards of the state.
Strawman.
The most important duty of the State in a rule-of-law, democratic society is enforcing respect for the individual's rights. In this case, the minor's rights.
Or are you suggesting the parent-child relation is a owner-propriety sort-of relation?
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:But if you cut his fingernails, you're depriving a child
False analogy, already addressed. Not trimming fingernails can and does lead to infections.
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:The Richard Bastion Republic wrote:As a circumcised man, IMO circumcision is a hygienic practice since the foreskin traps bacteria, and produces oils. Furthermore, excess foreskin is unclean.
That's the same as saying that limbs should be removed because they have the potential to become gangrenous in certain circumstances.
I also would like justification for restricting the parent's ability to make decision regarding the bodily autonomy of their children.
Because the childrens' body is not the parents' property. It has just temporarily entrusted to their care - and they must care for it properly.
The fact that is not medically necessary does not really count so far as I am concerned.
And your concern isn't really something the law is concerned about.
I want prove that it is actually detrimental to the child in question and infringes on their rights.
This issue has been already addressed in earlier posts. Use the search function.
I also agree with your second point, but it really doesn't affect my own beliefs on the matter.
How so?
NMaa940 wrote:Evraim wrote:My point is that unless a procedure can clearly be defined as abusive (in the sense that it is unwarranted and harmful to the individual in question), parental authority to request such a procedure on behalf of their child should not be infringed.
Why not? Removing my small toe might not significantly harm me either.NMaa940 wrote:Not always, no, but medical considerations ought to play into defining concrete human rights. How does this affect my argument precisely?
It doesn't - circumcision isn't done for health benefits.Evraim wrote:True. I want you to prove that it causes such significant distress as to be completely outlawed by a political entity in what amounts to a usurpation of parental authority.
I am distressed enough to want it "completely outlawed". I don't think my parents had the right to mutilate me for no good reason.
I don't really care about sex, and though I do not believe they had malicious intent, I am not a forgiving or compassionate person, and my country is not rich with opportunity, community, or humanity. It should be outlawed so that I do not eventually kill my father to make a point.
The point is that I do not hold people who violate my rights to be human.
NMaa940 wrote:NERVUN wrote:Hell, you're in trouble for talking to your child given that within the first 6 months a baby starts to focus on the sounds being made by his or her parent(s) and "shuts down" all other sounds, leaving said child at a disadvantage later on in terms of picking up a language that utilizes different sounds.
We should make it mandatory to speak bi-lingual. Think of the advantages.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:As well,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_v._Massachusetts
According to that SCOTUS, my authority as parent can only be contradicted by the state if the State can prove what I say is not in line with ensuring the child's welfare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder
Parent's religion outweighed state interest.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/
Parents have the most interest in a child and their decision on what is best for him is legitimate except in cases of abuse or neglect.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal ... /case.html
The fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care custody, and management of their child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troxel_v._Granville
The custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder
NMaa940 wrote:Evraim wrote:It is generally acknowledged that parents, in their capacity as legal guardians, possess certain rights to act on behalf of their child. For example, parents determine what religion their child practices, what medical procedures the child will undergo (braces, vaccines, glasses, etc.), what toys the child has, the peers with which a child may associate, etc.
You don't want them associating with the blacks, right? As someone who has spoken to not one black person on the internet, but two or three, I take offense to this.
Evraim wrote:NMaa940 wrote:You don't want them associating with the blacks, right? As someone who has spoken to not one black person on the internet, but two or three, I take offense to this.
No.
Are you trying to completely miss the point? I'll make it more clear. Sometimes, parents think certain children, due to their history of misdemeanors, aggressiveness, or other behavioral issues, might be bad influences on their own children.
NMaa940 wrote:Not helping what? He's not going to lock the thread just because of our conversation.
NERVUN is generally quite fair. I doubt he would lock the thread on accout of a disagreement. If this descends into trolling or flaming, however, he'll shut us down.
Just like it is a parents right to get their daughters ears pierced.
It's not. Find me a hint in the UDHR, UNCRC, ECHR or Grundesgesetz where you can infer a positive right of a parent to perform cosmetic surgery on infants at the parent's whim.
or is that assault now too?
It most defs is if performed on someone who's not consenting and without medical necessity.
Upper and Lower Karsteinia wrote:Removing part of a small child's body? Yeah, that's completely reprehensible, and I'm glad Germany have ruled against it.
I know it's largely a useless body part, but you are permanently cutting off something from a child! Religion is no defence when doing something like that.
And if it is I need to make up a new religion and find parts of the body that are not expected to be missed and then degree that babies have them removed. Fingerprints? Hair cells? Male nipples! Yes, in my new religion a baby boy is not allowed to have nipples.
No Water No Moon wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder
Whoops. There goes your privilege argument.
In some cases, someone's first amendment rights to choose to keep their children uneducated are allowed to trump the sensible and rational requirement that kids finish school.
In some cases.
Hence - permission.
Lialoth wrote:Tmutarakhan wrote:The foreskin, likewise, can cause damage to a precious nearby object...[citation needed]
I am quite sick of this thread, so will just sum up my position and leave it at that. Not circumcising an infant is "imposing" a choice on the infant every bit as much as circumcising the infant[citation needed]: because retaining the foreskin can do damage[citation needed], sometimes horrific damage[citation needed]; if the foreskin is retained past puberty, removing it at that stage may already be too late to undo the damage if the foreskin has already gone malignant[citation needed], and the removal at that stage will do damage to sexual sensation which is simply not the case for infant circumcision. The trade-off is strictly in terms of the complications that can result from the surgery itself; both of the probabilities, that the foreskin will cause harm or that the surgery will, are small[citation needed]; the probability of harm from the surgery is somewhat higher, but the probability that the harm will be gruesome is much greater in the case of retaining the foreskin[citation needed]. Thus, it is something that needs to be left up to the preferences of the parents, since the infant cannot make the choice (and "wait until he is grown" is an epic-fail argument under the circumstances); if the parents defer to a decision made, for good reasons, thousands of years ago, this is no worse than trusting to other authorities, since after all we cannot all be experts in every field. The difficulty with arguing this issue rationally arises from a downright cultish group which plays on ignorance and fear; partially it is composed of men who focus all their feelings of self-doubt on their genitals, and if they did not have circumcision to blame for their problems they would be concocting other neuroses (as with the fellow, cited some dozens of pages ago so I won't hunt it down, who was uncircumcised and decided his lack of circumcision was the problem, and went for adult circumcision for this very bad reason, only to find it did not help); unfortunately, another part of the anti-circ cult (including the founders) is simply motivated by neo-Naziism, adding further difficulty to attempts to discuss it rationally. I do not think the chance of (conscious or lingering-cultural) neo-Nazi motivations by the judge in this particular case is greater than 50%, but I do not think it negligible either.[Personal Attack]
Yep, won't be missing you. You have a strong tendency to make lots o' claims but never cite anything to back 'em up.
Geilinor wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
I'm having trouble reading these days, so tired. Can you go ahead and read what that says?
In fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder
Whoops. There goes your privilege argument.
Germany's constitution probably does not include that. Many European countries have banned spanking.
No Water No Moon wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
To that, we must turn to another ruling.
Nope. That's abusive.
Since circumcision has no detriments, but may have potential benefits, and with anathesia causes little pain, it is the prerogative of the parents to decide according to
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/
The humorous part here is - and you probably don't even realize you did it - you're actually arguing that the German ruling was right. If you're going to concede that parents don't get to choose in cases of abuse and neglect (and most of us will agree with you) - then the fact that circumcision is assault (and thus, abuse) under German law - means you are agreeing that the German courts are right to deprive parents of the choice.
QED.
Salandriagado wrote:The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
To that, we must turn to another ruling.
Nope. That's abusive.
Since circumcision has no detriments, but may have potential benefits, and with anathesia causes little pain, it is the prerogative of the parents to decide according to
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/
Chopping irreplaceable bits of your children off for completely unfounded alleged benefits is abuse.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:The humorous part here is - and you probably don't even realize you did it - you're actually arguing that the German ruling was right. If you're going to concede that parents don't get to choose in cases of abuse and neglect (and most of us will agree with you) - then the fact that circumcision is assault (and thus, abuse) under German law - means you are agreeing that the German courts are right to deprive parents of the choice.
QED.
Their argument is sound, but their premise is fault. If circumcision is assault and thus abuse, by all means it should be banned. But the if statement is the one which is false. So I disagree with the fundamental point that Circumcision is assault.
I can say that since pink elephants threaten the world (false premise), that we should kill them to alleviate the threat (killing them would). My argument is sound, yet my premise (pink elephants threaten the world) is false.
No Water No Moon wrote:
No. You wish this was about rights you believe - despite all evidence to the contrary - that the Constitution grants you. While you're wrong on that, it's actually irrelevant - because the US Constitution does not apply in Germany.
What DOES apply, is the precedent of German law - and you conceded the validity of precedent in law - that classifies such actions as 'assault'.
You also already conceded that parental privilege does NOT apply in cases of abuse.
Under German law, this is assault - and thus, abuse.
By your own arguments, you agree that a ban on circumcision was the right result. And I agree.
Nothing to do with being obtuse.
No Water No Moon wrote:The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Well I'm kind of depressed now. It turns out I was circumcised without knowing it happened. Now I will be stuck with my parents decision for the rest of my life. Nobody should be forced to regret other people's decisions for them.
I'm confused... you just found out you were circumcised?
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.
I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:34 pm
NMaa942 wrote:Blakk Metal, not everyone thinks sociopathically. We don't all violate other people and then expect them to be alright with it "because it was good for you".
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:35 pm
Blakk Metal wrote:Or are you suggesting the parent-child relation is a owner-property sort-of relation?
It kinda is, actually.
by NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:38 pm
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:If I ever have a son than I am not forcing him to go through what I have had to. Chopping off an important part of a male's genitals is both mutilation, a violation of civil rights, and risks death. It's sick to think that risking death and mutilating genitals is a good idea, screw the chance that there may be a chance of not getting a diesese, if he thinks its a good idea he can approve it himself without other people making major lifechanging decisions for him.
by The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm
Jocabia wrote:The above is a clear explanation of the problem. There are people who aren't even ashamed to admit they think parents OWN their children.
Let's say tomorrow my brother was injured in a way that made it so he couldn't make medical and care decisions for himself. I'm designated by his will to make those decisions and be responsible for his care until (and if) he is able to make decisions for himself again. In his place, I am expected not to make any life-altering decisions unless they cannot wait until he is able to make them for himself. No one would argue that if my brother fell into a comma I could get him circumcised the next day if I want to. Why? Because I don't have that right as a guardian. People would be appalled if I started doing such things. And they'd be right to be appalled.
The role of a parent is as a guardian, not an owner. The funny thing is that I don't think of the fact that people were duped into circumcision as evidence of the barbarism of our society, but the fact that people actually argue that children have no rights and that parents own children certainly is. I can not think of clear evidence of a barbaric mind than the idea that one person owns another.
by Blakk Metal » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm
NMaa942 wrote:The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:If I ever have a son than I am not forcing him to go through what I have had to. Chopping off an important part of a male's genitals is both mutilation, a violation of civil rights, and risks death. It's sick to think that risking death and mutilating genitals is a good idea, screw the chance that there may be a chance of not getting a diesese, if he thinks its a good idea he can approve it himself without other people making major lifechanging decisions for him.
You can tell yourself whatever you like, but the United States has a proportionately larger number of psychopaths and deviancy in that direction. It doesn't really have anything to do with moral questions. This didn't happen to you because of morality.
by Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:42 pm
Blakk Metal wrote:NMaa942 wrote:You can tell yourself whatever you like, but the United States has a proportionately larger number of psychopaths and deviancy in that direction. It doesn't really have anything to do with moral questions. This didn't happen to you because of morality.
Holier then they art thou, my lord?
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Sarduri, Spirit of Hope
Advertisement