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German Court rules circumcision as assault

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What do you think of Circumcision?

1) Against both male circumcision AND against fgm
164
40%
2) Against male circumcision and Pro-fgm
6
1%
3) Against FGM and Pro-male circumcision
95
23%
4) Pro both
44
11%
5) Permitting each sacrament, but ONLY when the child is 18.
106
26%
 
Total votes : 415

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Jocabia
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Founded: Mar 25, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:30 pm

I had my foreskin removed when I was a child. It was against my will. It was medically unnecessary. It was harmful in that it denied me my foreskin. It was removed before my foreskin had separated from my glans, so it was done by cutting the foreskin itself and then tearing it away from the glans, not only denying me a foreskin, but also damaging my glans. This wasn't a side-effect. It was normal way that the procedure is performed in a hospital. Again, to no medical benefit.

I had a body part removed against my will. My parents both would make a different decision today if they'd had better information. However, it needn't have been their decision. The decision could have been made by me when I was old enough or by them if it became medically urgent. Neither of these things happened.

I don't blame my parents for not knowing better, so this isn't about being angry at them. However, if you claim that having a healthy, normal body part removed from me is not harm, then I'll suggest a place where we can meet and I can choose any number of body parts I don't find necessary and remove them. Don't worry, I promise to take every reasonable measure to deal with your pain that was taken during my circumcision. You let me if you life it I committed assault.

The requirement is not that I prove that there is some medical harm (beyond the obvious harm of removing a healthy body part from a child). If you want to conduct an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a child that irreparably removes a part of their body, you're going to need a better reason than "well, it might have at one time had a minor impact on totally preventable issues" or "it might prevent a disease you'll only get when you're old enough to make a decision yourself" or "it might help with an unlikely disorder that can be solved if it ever occurs".

See, my foreskin wasn't removed because I'm Jewish. It was removed because we made it a political issue in the US and politically attacked pediatric associations for recommending the ending the practice (as a prevention method). However, my great uncles and all the men before that generation had it removed as a religious practice and, frankly, that is no better. We consider FIRST whether one has a right to bodily autonomy and THEN respect religious rights and practices. I, personally, believe that I deserved the right to grow up intact except where medically unavoidable. My parents were meant to be surrogates for me during a time when I was not old enough to make decisions for myself. They were meant to make decisions for me that were necessary to get me safely and responsibly to adulthood. I was not their slave and they did not have a right to conduct whatever random rituals they like to my body.

If a religious reason is adequate then any reason should be adequate. Why shouldn't I be allowed to tattoo the faces of my children or cut of their earlobes or simply do whatever process of scarring or cutting their body I choose so long as it's not more dangerous than circumcision and so long as it doesn't prevent the use of a "vital" body part as defined by circumcision advocates. So advocates, do I have the right to tattoo the faces of my children? Do I have the right to cut off their earlobes? Can I get liposuction for my toddlers? What makes cutting off a part of the penis so special?
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:34 pm

Jocabia wrote:I had my foreskin removed when I was a child. It was against my will. It was medically unnecessary. It was harmful in that it denied me my foreskin. It was removed before my foreskin had separated from my glans, so it was done by cutting the foreskin itself and then tearing it away from the glans, not only denying me a foreskin, but also damaging my glans. This wasn't a side-effect. It was normal way that the procedure is performed in a hospital. Again, to no medical benefit.

I had a body part removed against my will. My parents both would make a different decision today if they'd had better information. However, it needn't have been their decision. The decision could have been made by me when I was old enough or by them if it became medically urgent. Neither of these things happened.

I don't blame my parents for not knowing better, so this isn't about being angry at them. However, if you claim that having a healthy, normal body part removed from me is not harm, then I'll suggest a place where we can meet and I can choose any number of body parts I don't find necessary and remove them. Don't worry, I promise to take every reasonable measure to deal with your pain that was taken during my circumcision. You let me if you life it I committed assault.

The requirement is not that I prove that there is some medical harm (beyond the obvious harm of removing a healthy body part from a child). If you want to conduct an unnecessary cosmetic surgery on a child that irreparably removes a part of their body, you're going to need a better reason than "well, it might have at one time had a minor impact on totally preventable issues" or "it might prevent a disease you'll only get when you're old enough to make a decision yourself" or "it might help with an unlikely disorder that can be solved if it ever occurs".

See, my foreskin wasn't removed because I'm Jewish. It was removed because we made it a political issue in the US and politically attacked pediatric associations for recommending the ending the practice (as a prevention method). However, my great uncles and all the men before that generation had it removed as a religious practice and, frankly, that is no better. We consider FIRST whether one has a right to bodily autonomy and THEN respect religious rights and practices. I, personally, believe that I deserved the right to grow up intact except where medically unavoidable. My parents were meant to be surrogates for me during a time when I was not old enough to make decisions for myself. They were meant to make decisions for me that were necessary to get me safely and responsibly to adulthood. I was not their slave and they did not have a right to conduct whatever random rituals they like to my body.

If a religious reason is adequate then any reason should be adequate. Why shouldn't I be allowed to tattoo the faces of my children or cut of their earlobes or simply do whatever process of scarring or cutting their body I choose so long as it's not more dangerous than circumcision and so long as it doesn't prevent the use of a "vital" body part as defined by circumcision advocates. So advocates, do I have the right to tattoo the faces of my children? Do I have the right to cut off their earlobes? Can I get liposuction for my toddlers? What makes cutting off a part of the penis so special?

I feel your pain. I was circumcised shortly after I was born. I had no idea actually until this day, it came up during a discussion about Africa. Now I am going to have to permanantly live with the decision my mother and father made without my consent in any way shape or form, I'm going to have to regret they're decision just because in this world young people cant make decisions for themselves. I am very angry at my mother and my father, who both agreed to it on my behalf and both wouldve done the same thing today.
Gay and Proudand also a brony
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I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
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Jocabia
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Founded: Mar 25, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:51 pm

Oh and the difference between skinning ones knee and losing their leg is that the leg does not grow back and the skin on the knee does. You're absolutely right that losing your leg is mutilation while a skinned knee is not. I'll happily stop calling cutting off the healthy, normal foreskin from a child's body mutilation when you can demonstrate to me that it grows back. I'm 37, when should I expect my foreskin to come back in?

Yes, we should stop comparing cutting off the foreskin to decapitation, rape and sexual assault. I totally agree. Can we also stop comparing it to skinning one's knees, cutting of hair and nails, or various other things. It's removed. It's not coming back. It's a purposeful removal of a part of a child's body. One of the meaning's of mutilation is to disfigure permanently. I consider the permanent alteration of my penis disfiguring. Unsurprisingly, people who think circumcision is normal, do not. However, it is neither an exaggeration nor incorrect for people who believe we should be allowed to determine for ourselves whether or not our penises are intact to refer to it as mutilation. It is specifically what mutilation means.

I fully believe that one day, it will be very clear that the medical debate has always been very much colored by culture and religious beliefs. I think it will be clear that there was never clear evidence for routine circumcision and it's definitely clear that evidence does not exist today. And I believe that people will look back at this debate with a lot of the same disdain with which we look at debates about same-sex marriage and other artifacts of the Judeochristianity on culture.

Maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe 50 years from now, circumcisions will not be referred to as barbaric, but I'm going to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. And when it happens, I hope my children and their children will be able to say that I wasn't one of the barbarians, knowingly arguing for a practice that puts the religious beliefs of the parents ahead of the bodily autonomy of the child or, worse, convinces parents who would otherwise not continue the practice that there is a medical reason just to make the practice seem less barbaric.
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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Dazchan
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Dazchan » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:51 pm

Veladio wrote:
No Water No Moon wrote:
Wait, what?

Smegma is a problem?

First, no. You might as well argue that mucus is a problem.

Second, once again, the argument for circumcision is that some people might be too lazy to wash their cocks.


Regarding phimosis: Surgery is unnecessary.

    "Concernant ma clientèle de ville plusieurs dizaines d'adolescents ont reçu les mêmes conseils et je constate qu'en 15 ans d'exercice, je n'ai jamais conduit au chirurgien un seul de mes patients."

Uh...for those of us who don't speak...what ever that is, could you please explain?


It's quite clearly French, and if you put it into Google Translate, it will not only recognise the language but provide you with a somewhat-decent translation.

The gist for lazy people: It's a doctor who has spent 15 years working with inner-city adolescents, and has never recommended surgery to treat phimosis.
If you can read this, thank your teachers.

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NMaa942
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Founded: Jul 08, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:01 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:I am very angry at my mother and my father, who both agreed to it on my behalf and both wouldve done the same thing today.

I don't see the problem, just stop talking to them.

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:02 pm

NMaa942 wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:I am very angry at my mother and my father, who both agreed to it on my behalf and both wouldve done the same thing today.

I don't see the problem, just stop talking to them.

The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
Anti-Republican on government,
Interventionist/Imperialist on international issues

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NMaa942
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Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:06 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.

You probably thought they were better people when you thought they cared about you.
You're enlightened now. Be thankful.
Last edited by NMaa942 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:08 pm

NMaa942 wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.

You probably thought they were better people when you thought they cared about you.
You're enlightened now. Be thankful.

Well I've disliked my mother for over a year. Now I hate both of my parents. The bastards mutilated my God dang body!
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
Anti-Republican on government,
Interventionist/Imperialist on international issues

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Camicon
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Ex-Nation

Postby Camicon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:09 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:
NMaa942 wrote:You probably thought they were better people when you thought they cared about you.
You're enlightened now. Be thankful.

Well I've disliked my mother for over a year. Now I hate both of my parents. The bastards mutilated my God dang body!

Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.
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NMaa942
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Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Camicon wrote:Make peace with them.

You can forgive them in the sense that they have no minds.

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:12 pm

Camicon wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Well I've disliked my mother for over a year. Now I hate both of my parents. The bastards mutilated my God dang body!

Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.

I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
Anti-Republican on government,
Interventionist/Imperialist on international issues

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NMaa942
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Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:14 pm

You're talking about cats and dogs. I don't get pissed at a dog for barking at me, it doesn't know anything.

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Glorious Panem
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Postby Glorious Panem » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:14 pm

Fun Fact for Fun only: Did you know that circumcision can help protect against certain STD's later in life? STD's like herpes, HPV and HIV?

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm

Glorious Panem wrote:Fun Fact for Fun only: Did you know that circumcision can help protect against certain STD's later in life? STD's like herpes, HPV and HIV?

Guess what? I'm a Christian, I dont intend to have sex until I'm married. Even then I would use a condom.
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
Anti-Republican on government,
Interventionist/Imperialist on international issues

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Jocabia
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Founded: Mar 25, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:
Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.

I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?

Technically, you don't have a basis for comparison, either. That's part of the problem. I don't know what I'm missing, because I was denied the opportunity to know.

However, I don't see the value in hating your parents. There is a lot of misinformation out there. It's hard to say what your parents would have done if they had a medical community that made it clear that there is no need for routine natal circumcision. That's the not the US we grew up in.
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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Camicon
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Postby Camicon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:
Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.

I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?

Do you know how tiring it is to go through life hating people? To hate the people that raised and loved you? To hate the people that you've loved since you knew how?

At the expense of sounding like a cheap Jedi, hate can only destroy you.

Now, this isn't exactly on topic anymore. TG me if you wish to continue.

Back on topic, circumcision of infants is a violation of bodily sovereignty. End of.
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Why (Male) Rape Is Hilarious [because it has to be]

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Jocabia
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Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:19 pm

Glorious Panem wrote:Fun Fact for Fun only: Did you know that circumcision can help protect against certain STD's later in life? STD's like herpes, HPV and HIV?

You know what's fun about that "fact"? If I want to prevent STD's in that way, I can cut my foreskin off as an adult. Or I could wear something called a condom. That would be up to me to decide and my partner to determine whether she's comfortable with my decision.

We won't argue about whether the evidence for that "fact" is conclusive, because it's irrelevant. As a means of prevention, it is equally available when I'm old enough to make decisions about my body and sex. Not to mention at a time when anesthesia is safer and when the foreskin doesn't have to be ripped from my glans.
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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Blakk Metal
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Postby Blakk Metal » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:27 pm

Sedgistan wrote:
Terraius wrote:I vote that unless you were circumcised then you shouldnt be able to give your retarded opinion in this thread.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

Clear moderator bias
Risottia wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:Your argument is based on the fact that unless it is necessary, undeveloped, irrational brains should make permanent choices about their body.

Strawman.

The argument here in favour of the German ruling has consistently been that "unless it is necessary, developed, rational brains don't get to enforce permanent-effect surgery on the body of other people temporarily entrusted to their care".

By whom? The state? Are you implying that children belong not to their parents, but to the state?
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:Other main arguments: Doing it for religious reasons is wrong.

Other strawman. The argument was "religious opinion of the custodian doesn't trump the imaginary rights of the minor".

Corrected.
NMaa940 wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:So a child isn't allowed to decide, his parents aren't allowed to decide. The STATE should decide! Who needs parents anyway? All children should be wards of the state.

They already are.

They aren't, they never were, and never should be.
Risottia wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote: The STATE should decide! Who needs parents anyway? All children should be wards of the state.

Strawman.

The most important duty of the State in a rule-of-law, democratic society is enforcing respect for the individual's rights. In this case, the minor's rights.

Sorry, but you ain't givin' the child rights. You're giving the government rights.
Or are you suggesting the parent-child relation is a owner-propriety sort-of relation?

It kinda is, actually.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:But if you cut his fingernails, you're depriving a child

False analogy, already addressed. Not trimming fingernails can and does lead to infections.

But they can be avoided by careful behavior and proper hygiene!
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
The Richard Bastion Republic wrote:As a circumcised man, IMO circumcision is a hygienic practice since the foreskin traps bacteria, and produces oils. Furthermore, excess foreskin is unclean.


That's the same as saying that limbs should be removed because they have the potential to become gangrenous in certain circumstances.

Limbs are useful.
NMaa940 wrote:
Evraim wrote:Most medical experts believe that circumcision has no tangible pros or cons

Medical experts aren't exactly known for their human rights record. I wouldn't put them in office unless you want a whole country on drugs.

Yeah guys, lets fuck the doctors. Those meanies aren't kissing and hugging me to help me recover from the traumatic loss of a useless piece of skin.
Risottia wrote:
Evraim wrote:Does having braces as a cosmetic procedure qualify then?

A non medically-motivated surgical operation is MOST DEFINITELY assault.

Not on a child.
I also would like justification for restricting the parent's ability to make decision regarding the bodily autonomy of their children.

Because the childrens' body is not the parents' property. It has just temporarily entrusted to their care - and they must care for it properly.

Stop making up 'child rights'. They are nothing but a excuse for the state to intrude in their citizens' lives and increase their power.
The fact that is not medically necessary does not really count so far as I am concerned.

And your concern isn't really something the law is concerned about.

Then the government is overly intrusive.
I want prove that it is actually detrimental to the child in question and infringes on their rights.

This issue has been already addressed in earlier posts. Use the search function.

Summary: "Circumcision is ebil. Anyone who says otherwise is a babychopping liar."
I also agree with your second point, but it really doesn't affect my own beliefs on the matter.

How so?

Circ does nothing.
NMaa940 wrote:
Evraim wrote:My point is that unless a procedure can clearly be defined as abusive (in the sense that it is unwarranted and harmful to the individual in question), parental authority to request such a procedure on behalf of their child should not be infringed.

Why not? Removing my small toe might not significantly harm me either.
NMaa940 wrote:Not always, no, but medical considerations ought to play into defining concrete human rights. How does this affect my argument precisely?

It doesn't - circumcision isn't done for health benefits.
Evraim wrote:True. I want you to prove that it causes such significant distress as to be completely outlawed by a political entity in what amounts to a usurpation of parental authority.

I am distressed enough to want it "completely outlawed". I don't think my parents had the right to mutilate me for no good reason.

They did. Doesn't matter what you think.
I don't really care about sex, and though I do not believe they had malicious intent, I am not a forgiving or compassionate person, and my country is not rich with opportunity, community, or humanity. It should be outlawed so that I do not eventually kill my father to make a point.

Ooh! This is an epic story! You deserve a whole miniseries!
The point is that I do not hold people who violate my rights to be human.

Then you aint human. Basic biology.
Katganistan wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
Based on this thread, it seems many people who oppose Circumcision ARE homicidal fascists (NMaa and Milks)

*** Warned for flaming and trolling. *** You've been spoken to about this repeatedly. On your next infraction, you can expect a short ban.

Even more mod bias.
NMaa940 wrote:
NERVUN wrote:Hell, you're in trouble for talking to your child given that within the first 6 months a baby starts to focus on the sounds being made by his or her parent(s) and "shuts down" all other sounds, leaving said child at a disadvantage later on in terms of picking up a language that utilizes different sounds.

We should make it mandatory to speak bi-lingual. Think of the advantages.

And now it's official: You are a troll.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:As well,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_v._Massachusetts

According to that SCOTUS, my authority as parent can only be contradicted by the state if the State can prove what I say is not in line with ensuring the child's welfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder

Parent's religion outweighed state interest.

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/

Parents have the most interest in a child and their decision on what is best for him is legitimate except in cases of abuse or neglect.

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal ... /case.html

The fundamental liberty interest of natural parents in the care custody, and management of their child is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troxel_v._Granville

The custody, care and nurture of the child reside first in the parents, whose primary function and freedom include preparation for obligations the state can neither supply nor hinder

This is Germany.
NMaa940 wrote:
Evraim wrote:It is generally acknowledged that parents, in their capacity as legal guardians, possess certain rights to act on behalf of their child. For example, parents determine what religion their child practices, what medical procedures the child will undergo (braces, vaccines, glasses, etc.), what toys the child has, the peers with which a child may associate, etc.

You don't want them associating with the blacks, right? As someone who has spoken to not one black person on the internet, but two or three, I take offense to this.

Red Herring
Evraim wrote:
NMaa940 wrote:You don't want them associating with the blacks, right? As someone who has spoken to not one black person on the internet, but two or three, I take offense to this.

No. :palm:

Are you trying to completely miss the point? I'll make it more clear. Sometimes, parents think certain children, due to their history of misdemeanors, aggressiveness, or other behavioral issues, might be bad influences on their own children.

And your nightmare begins.
NMaa940 wrote:Not helping what? He's not going to lock the thread just because of our conversation.

NERVUN is generally quite fair. I doubt he would lock the thread on accout of a disagreement. If this descends into trolling or flaming, however, he'll shut us down.

Sedge is watching too, y'know.
Risottia wrote:
Nahgallay wrote: It is the parents right to do this if they wish.

You'll find, if you did a bit of research, that kids aren't the parents' property.

They kinda are, actually.
Just like it is a parents right to get their daughters ears pierced.

It's not. Find me a hint in the UDHR, UNCRC, ECHR or Grundesgesetz where you can infer a positive right of a parent to perform cosmetic surgery on infants at the parent's whim.

Babies, as far as rights are concerned, aren't people. Since only people, or groups thereof, can have rights, all you are doing is giving the state more power.
or is that assault now too?

It most defs is if performed on someone who's not consenting and without medical necessity.

Not if it's your child.
Upper and Lower Karsteinia wrote:Removing part of a small child's body? Yeah, that's completely reprehensible, and I'm glad Germany have ruled against it.

I know it's largely a useless body part, but you are permanently cutting off something from a child! Religion is no defence when doing something like that.
And if it is I need to make up a new religion and find parts of the body that are not expected to be missed and then degree that babies have them removed. Fingerprints? Hair cells? Male nipples! Yes, in my new religion a baby boy is not allowed to have nipples.

Image
No Water No Moon wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder

Whoops. There goes your privilege argument.


In some cases, someone's first amendment rights to choose to keep their children uneducated are allowed to trump the sensible and rational requirement that kids finish school.

In some cases.

Hence - permission.

How is circumcision harmful?
Lialoth wrote:
Tmutarakhan wrote:The foreskin, likewise, can cause damage to a precious nearby object...[citation needed]
I am quite sick of this thread, so will just sum up my position and leave it at that. Not circumcising an infant is "imposing" a choice on the infant every bit as much as circumcising the infant[citation needed]: because retaining the foreskin can do damage[citation needed], sometimes horrific damage[citation needed]; if the foreskin is retained past puberty, removing it at that stage may already be too late to undo the damage if the foreskin has already gone malignant[citation needed], and the removal at that stage will do damage to sexual sensation which is simply not the case for infant circumcision. The trade-off is strictly in terms of the complications that can result from the surgery itself; both of the probabilities, that the foreskin will cause harm or that the surgery will, are small[citation needed]; the probability of harm from the surgery is somewhat higher, but the probability that the harm will be gruesome is much greater in the case of retaining the foreskin[citation needed]. Thus, it is something that needs to be left up to the preferences of the parents, since the infant cannot make the choice (and "wait until he is grown" is an epic-fail argument under the circumstances); if the parents defer to a decision made, for good reasons, thousands of years ago, this is no worse than trusting to other authorities, since after all we cannot all be experts in every field. The difficulty with arguing this issue rationally arises from a downright cultish group which plays on ignorance and fear; partially it is composed of men who focus all their feelings of self-doubt on their genitals, and if they did not have circumcision to blame for their problems they would be concocting other neuroses (as with the fellow, cited some dozens of pages ago so I won't hunt it down, who was uncircumcised and decided his lack of circumcision was the problem, and went for adult circumcision for this very bad reason, only to find it did not help); unfortunately, another part of the anti-circ cult (including the founders) is simply motivated by neo-Naziism, adding further difficulty to attempts to discuss it rationally. I do not think the chance of (conscious or lingering-cultural) neo-Nazi motivations by the judge in this particular case is greater than 50%, but I do not think it negligible either.[Personal Attack]

Yep, won't be missing you. You have a strong tendency to make lots o' claims but never cite anything to back 'em up.

Reread the thread.
Geilinor wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:


I'm having trouble reading these days, so tired. Can you go ahead and read what that says?

In fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder

Whoops. There goes your privilege argument.

Germany's constitution probably does not include that. Many European countries have banned spanking.

Illegitimately.
No Water No Moon wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
To that, we must turn to another ruling.



Nope. That's abusive.

Since circumcision has no detriments, but may have potential benefits, and with anathesia causes little pain, it is the prerogative of the parents to decide according to


http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/


The humorous part here is - and you probably don't even realize you did it - you're actually arguing that the German ruling was right. If you're going to concede that parents don't get to choose in cases of abuse and neglect (and most of us will agree with you) - then the fact that circumcision is assault (and thus, abuse) under German law - means you are agreeing that the German courts are right to deprive parents of the choice.

QED.

But circumcision isn't abuse.
Salandriagado wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
To that, we must turn to another ruling.



Nope. That's abusive.

Since circumcision has no detriments, but may have potential benefits, and with anathesia causes little pain, it is the prerogative of the parents to decide according to


http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/442/584/


Chopping irreplaceable bits of your children off for completely unfounded alleged benefits is abuse.

No it isn't.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
The humorous part here is - and you probably don't even realize you did it - you're actually arguing that the German ruling was right. If you're going to concede that parents don't get to choose in cases of abuse and neglect (and most of us will agree with you) - then the fact that circumcision is assault (and thus, abuse) under German law - means you are agreeing that the German courts are right to deprive parents of the choice.

QED.



Their argument is sound, but their premise is fault. If circumcision is assault and thus abuse, by all means it should be banned. But the if statement is the one which is false. So I disagree with the fundamental point that Circumcision is assault.

I can say that since pink elephants threaten the world (false premise), that we should kill them to alleviate the threat (killing them would). My argument is sound, yet my premise (pink elephants threaten the world) is false.

There's a name for that.
No Water No Moon wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:

Now you're trying to be obtuse.


No. You wish this was about rights you believe - despite all evidence to the contrary - that the Constitution grants you. While you're wrong on that, it's actually irrelevant - because the US Constitution does not apply in Germany.

What DOES apply, is the precedent of German law - and you conceded the validity of precedent in law - that classifies such actions as 'assault'.

You also already conceded that parental privilege does NOT apply in cases of abuse.

Under German law, this is assault - and thus, abuse.

By your own arguments, you agree that a ban on circumcision was the right result. And I agree.

Nothing to do with being obtuse.

Under reality, circumcision is not abuse, and what is assault on an adult is not necessarily child abuse.
Lialoth wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:See: The thread, which you still haven't read.

So in lieu of presenting logical argument you'll just keep yelling at us to reread the entire 149-page thread? Classy.

Forskinheads have done that too.
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
No Water No Moon wrote:
They can certainly try to argue it as medical. And perhaps they'll even be able to convince someone that it's not just a convenient lie.


The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it is.

Not in civil law.
Roan Cara wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:One's right to practice a religion ends where permanently altering the structure of another's body begins. This court made the right call.

this.

The foreskin is not part of the body's structure.
Zephie wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:
One needs only to show credentials to be an expert.



Read the thread before you post.

Who are you to tell me what to do? That's right, nobody.

Your parent.
Page wrote:
The Mongol Ilkhanate wrote:Read the thread before you post.


If they had read the thread before they posted, their post would have been the same, except they would have also added "Pro-MGM people Foreskinheads commit every logical fallacy in existence"

Corrected.
No Water No Moon wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:Well I'm kind of depressed now. It turns out I was circumcised without knowing it happened. Now I will be stuck with my parents decision for the rest of my life. Nobody should be forced to regret other people's decisions for them.


I'm confused... you just found out you were circumcised?

:eek:

As it turns out, circumcision does nothing relevant. Didn't you know that?
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:
NMaa942 wrote:I don't see the problem, just stop talking to them.

The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.

And that matters, why?
NMaa942 wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:The problem? Because of them I dont have a foreskin.

You probably thought they were better people when you thought they cared about you.
You're enlightened now. Be thankful.

But they did care.
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:
Camicon wrote:Will hating them accomplish anything? Will it give you back your foreskin?
No. it won't.
Make peace with them.

I dont have a time machine, nothing will change it. Thats all the more reason to hate them, they stole somthing from me and I will never be able to get it back. Its depressing. Do you know what it feels like to not have a foreskin? To be have part of you un-naturally removed? Against your will?

Fine? :eyebrow:

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NMaa942
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Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:31 pm

Blakk Metal, not everyone thinks sociopathically. We don't all violate other people and then expect them to be alright with it "because it was good for you".

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:34 pm

NMaa942 wrote:Blakk Metal, not everyone thinks sociopathically. We don't all violate other people and then expect them to be alright with it "because it was good for you".

If I ever have a son than I am not forcing him to go through what I have had to. Chopping off an important part of a male's genitals is both mutilation, a violation of civil rights, and risks death. It's sick to think that risking death and mutilating genitals is a good idea, screw the chance that there may be a chance of not getting a diesese, if he thinks its a good idea he can approve it himself without other people making major lifechanging decisions for him.
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
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Jocabia
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Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:35 pm

Blakk Metal wrote:
Or are you suggesting the parent-child relation is a owner-property sort-of relation?

It kinda is, actually.

The above is a clear explanation of the problem. There are people who aren't even ashamed to admit they think parents OWN their children.

Let's say tomorrow my brother was injured in a way that made it so he couldn't make medical and care decisions for himself. I'm designated by his will to make those decisions and be responsible for his care until (and if) he is able to make decisions for himself again. In his place, I am expected not to make any life-altering decisions unless they cannot wait until he is able to make them for himself. No one would argue that if my brother fell into a comma I could get him circumcised the next day if I want to. Why? Because I don't have that right as a guardian. People would be appalled if I started doing such things. And they'd be right to be appalled.

The role of a parent is as a guardian, not an owner. The funny thing is that I don't think of the fact that people were duped into circumcision as evidence of the barbarism of our society, but the fact that people actually argue that children have no rights and that parents own children certainly is. I cannot think of clear evidence of barbarism than the idea that one person owns another, than the idea that one person CAN own another.
Last edited by Jocabia on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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NMaa942
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Founded: Jul 08, 2012
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Postby NMaa942 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:38 pm

The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:If I ever have a son than I am not forcing him to go through what I have had to. Chopping off an important part of a male's genitals is both mutilation, a violation of civil rights, and risks death. It's sick to think that risking death and mutilating genitals is a good idea, screw the chance that there may be a chance of not getting a diesese, if he thinks its a good idea he can approve it himself without other people making major lifechanging decisions for him.

You can tell yourself whatever you like, but the United States has a proportionately larger number of psychopaths and deviancy in that direction. It doesn't really have anything to do with moral questions. This didn't happen to you because of morality or ethics.
Last edited by NMaa942 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm

Jocabia wrote:The above is a clear explanation of the problem. There are people who aren't even ashamed to admit they think parents OWN their children.

Let's say tomorrow my brother was injured in a way that made it so he couldn't make medical and care decisions for himself. I'm designated by his will to make those decisions and be responsible for his care until (and if) he is able to make decisions for himself again. In his place, I am expected not to make any life-altering decisions unless they cannot wait until he is able to make them for himself. No one would argue that if my brother fell into a comma I could get him circumcised the next day if I want to. Why? Because I don't have that right as a guardian. People would be appalled if I started doing such things. And they'd be right to be appalled.

The role of a parent is as a guardian, not an owner. The funny thing is that I don't think of the fact that people were duped into circumcision as evidence of the barbarism of our society, but the fact that people actually argue that children have no rights and that parents own children certainly is. I can not think of clear evidence of a barbaric mind than the idea that one person owns another.

*Sigh* What you said is completly true. You know that when I was young I wanted to get a job, I wanted to vote, I wanted the same rights people over 18 did, but because of my age I wasnt allowed to purely for that reason. Some things I can understand age limits on, but young people atleast deserve the right to choose to keep they're foreskin.
Gay and Proudand also a brony
Political Compass:Left: 7.76, Authoritarian: 5.6
I am: Fascist/Corporatist on economy,
Conservative on social issues(Support same sex marriage),
Anti secularist on religion,
Anti-Republican on government,
Interventionist/Imperialist on international issues

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Blakk Metal
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Blakk Metal » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:40 pm

NMaa942 wrote:
The United Soviet Socialist Republic wrote:If I ever have a son than I am not forcing him to go through what I have had to. Chopping off an important part of a male's genitals is both mutilation, a violation of civil rights, and risks death. It's sick to think that risking death and mutilating genitals is a good idea, screw the chance that there may be a chance of not getting a diesese, if he thinks its a good idea he can approve it himself without other people making major lifechanging decisions for him.

You can tell yourself whatever you like, but the United States has a proportionately larger number of psychopaths and deviancy in that direction. It doesn't really have anything to do with moral questions. This didn't happen to you because of morality.

Holier then they art thou, my lord?

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Jocabia
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Postby Jocabia » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:42 pm

Blakk Metal wrote:
NMaa942 wrote:You can tell yourself whatever you like, but the United States has a proportionately larger number of psychopaths and deviancy in that direction. It doesn't really have anything to do with moral questions. This didn't happen to you because of morality.

Holier then they art thou, my lord?

Frankly, he is holier than thou. You're arguing that humans can own other humans.
Sgt Toomey wrote:Come to think of it, it would make more sense to hate him for being black. At least its half true..
JJ Place wrote:Sure, the statistics are that a gun is more likely to harm a family member than a criminal

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