Established Religion Is So Evil ...

[Holy Nordic Empire]

There is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can't help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the “liberals” tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.

[Socialdemokraterne]

There is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can't help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the “liberals” tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.

Um...are you just going to preach about homosexuals the whole time? Or are you actually going to address the thread topic and discuss the establishment of a state religion? Because if it's the former, could you kindly do it somewhere else?

[AiliailiA]

Also, look at the last State Communists in power anywhere ... the Castros, sitting down with the Pope.

They're old men who led their country well, and they're making sincere attempts to hand it off from Communism to a "Mixed Market with Communist Ideals" if I may coin a phrase.

Carter got it. This is how the USSR should have gone, gently away from Communism. This, in my opinion, is how China is going: gently away from Communism. But keeping alive some of the ideals inculcated over generations. Then that bully Reagan came to power, and kept power with "morning in America" ... ending the Cold War if you must see it that way ... setting an awful precedent of economic mismanagement just to do the Soviets down. And, by making the USSR collapse instead of transitioning, causing huge assets previously held in common (by the State) to fall into the hands of a few Robber Barons.

As Gorbachev said: "We have done a terrible thing to America. We have deprived you of your enemy".

[Phaedrus Imperator]

The Church of Sweden, which is a Lutheran church, is very liberal. Homosexuals are allowed to may in their churches and the Bishop of Härnösand (which is about 5 hours north of Stockholm) is lesbian. I guess though, the CoS had to reform to conform with the minds of a very secular and liberal nation.

That being said the Lutheran Church of Finland, which I was born into is still quite conservative, when it comes to homosexuality. Perhaps in time that will change, but we're still doing better than most American churches.

The political correctness and humanism of the Swedes disgust me. You are not doing better than anyone and especially not better than the conservative American churches who seem to be the only one left to defend the true words of the Bible.
A lesbian bishop... should I laugh or cry? The church of Sweden is not Lutheran, it's satanic.

No, they're just not all morons like you.

I, personally, morally oppose religion. It causes wars for no reason, genocide, meaningless racism, homophobia, mutilation of genitalia for no real reason, suicide, terrorism...

I could go on forever.

[AiliailiA]

There is hope for the homosexual.

Whatever. Go make your own thread.

Read the OP again. Comment if you want on whether Establishing a Church makes that Church better (or worse as I suspect you would see it). Post on the topic, or go away.

[AiliailiA]

The political correctness and humanism of the Swedes disgust me. You are not doing better than anyone and especially not better than the conservative American churches who seem to be the only one left to defend the true words of the Bible.
A lesbian bishop... should I laugh or cry? The church of Sweden is not Lutheran, it's satanic.

No, they're just not all ...

And you too. That looks like a personal attack to me.

I'm not reporting it. I'm that damn certain it IS a personal attack. I'll give you a chance to edit it out.

Post on the topic please.

[Turan Federasyonu]

Maybe. But established atheism is no smaller evil. The public sphere shall be space of secularism and any manifestations of religous believs and ideology shall not take place but the state should not dictate the people in what to believe

[The USOT]

There is hope for the homosexual. Dave forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, Dave`s grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to Dave (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

Few things to say about that.
1) This does make your god sound like a jerk. Simply replace the word "God" with "Dave" as a person and; well the tone speaks for itself...
2)Forgiving someone for elements that god gave them is a tad odd. Surely it makes sense for god to seek apology for giving them an atribute then telling them they are a sinner and must not experience romantic love?

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can't help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Thats not "reducing someone to the level of an animal" thats not denying them the chance to experience love which is supposedly the overarching theme of your God. Besides, its a moot point. If a homosexual chooses to practice homosexuality, they are still making a moral choice, and indeed often practice moral responsibility. Just not the one you espouse.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the “liberals” tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.

This still seems backward. If I cripple someones arm, any rational person would not say to the victim "you most go repent and seek forgiveness from The USOT" but instead prosecute me.

[AiliailiA]

Maybe. But established atheism is no smaller evil.

I'm not even sure how one would go about "establishing atheism".

Would schoolchildren be asked to swear "by there being no gods"?
Would Richard Dawkins be called up to do the ceremonies when young Royals marry?

Perhaps you can explain what "established atheism" would look like.

[Holy Nordic Empire]

There is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God's grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

“Liberal” churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of “love.” They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, “because they can't help it.” They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the “liberals” tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can't help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.

Um...are you just going to preach about homosexuals the whole time? Or are you actually going to address the thread topic and discuss the establishment of a state religion? Because if it's the former, could you kindly do it somewhere else?

I didn't start the gay/lesbian issue. I just responded to those who brought up the issue. When it comes to the state religion issue our atheist Danish government's agenda is to dechristianize the society by destroying the church - an importing part of our cultural heritage.

[Socialdemokraterne]

I didn't start the gay/lesbian issue. I just responded to those who brought up the issue. When it comes to the state religion issue our atheist Danish government's agenda is to dechristianize the society by destroying the church - an importing part of our cultural heritage.

Your spoiler is empty...

Do you have evidence that the Danish government is actively trying to destroy the Church of Denmark?

[AiliailiA]

Um...are you just going to preach about homosexuals the whole time? Or are you actually going to address the thread topic and discuss the establishment of a state religion? Because if it's the former, could you kindly do it somewhere else?

I didn't start the gay/lesbian issue. I just responded to those who brought up the issue. When it comes to the state religion issue our atheist Danish government's agenda is to dechristianize the society by destroying the church - an importing part of our cultural heritage.

Thankyou for trying to move back towards the thread topic.

What is the Danish government doing to "destroy" the church?

[Terruana]

Wait, what part of that is fair?

It's a figure of speech. I was merely pointing out that most Christian groups do not view homosexuality as a sin, but the act of homosexual sex is in their eyes, a sin.

Christ, I never knew my post would be so hard to comprehend with.

I'm not really seeing the difference. So it's okay to be gay, so long as you never ever do anything about it and pretend to be straight?

Also, even assuming for argument's sake that homosexuality is a sin, why does that mean they can't marry? Adultery is a sin, yet we let people who cheat on their spouses re-marry. Hell, pretty much everything's a sin, so why is homosexuality the only sin that disqualifies you from being able to marry?

[Holy Nordic Empire]

I didn't start the gay/lesbian issue. I just responded to those who brought up the issue. When it comes to the state religion issue our atheist Danish government's agenda is to dechristianize the society by destroying the church - an importing part of our cultural heritage.

Your spoiler is empty...

Do you have evidence that the Danish government is actively trying to destroy the Church of Denmark?

Evidence! How many do you need? They are by law forcing the church to carry out homosexual weddings even though a majority of the bishops are against the government's intervention. Confirmation classes are removed from the schedule in most public schools. Christian knowledge is being downgraded in public schools in general. in addition they are forcing Christian private schools the teach the students about the false doctrine of Darwin's theory of evolution.

[Terruana]

Your spoiler is empty...

Do you have evidence that the Danish government is actively trying to destroy the Church of Denmark?

Evidence! How many do you need? They are by law forcing the church to carry out homosexual weddings even though a majority of the bishops are against the government's intervention. Confirmation classes are removed from the schedule in most public schools. Christian knowledge is being downgraded in public schools in general. in addition they are forcing Christian private schools the teach the students about the false doctrine of Darwin's theory of evolution.

Firstly, evolution is real. I could explain why, but it's not really on topic. Second, you have no right to force your religion on other people. You have a right to believe what you want, and so does everyone else. Everything you just listed as "dechristianisation of your society" is actually just blocking your church from forcing itself on everyone. Not one of those things has in any way hindered you or your fellow Christians ability to worship Jesus and your god.

[Jafas United]

I'm not really seeing the difference. So it's okay to be gay, so long as you never ever do anything about it and pretend to be straight?

In the opinions of many Christian churches, yes. However, many are reforming and that isn't the case anymore e.g. Church of Sweden.

Also, even assuming for argument's sake that homosexuality is a sin, why does that mean they can't marry? Adultery is a sin, yet we let people who cheat on their spouses re-marry. Hell, pretty much everything's a sin, so why is homosexuality the only sin that disqualifies you from being able to marry?

Also, I never said that homosexuality is a sin. I was purely sating the obvious, and that is, many Christians believe that having sex with the same gender is a sin, not being homosexual. It would save time to read what I wrote, you know.

[Terruana]

I'm not really seeing the difference. So it's okay to be gay, so long as you never ever do anything about it and pretend to be straight?

In the opinions of many Christian churches, yes. However, many are reforming and that isn't the case anymore e.g. Church of Sweden.

Also, even assuming for argument's sake that homosexuality is a sin, why does that mean they can't marry? Adultery is a sin, yet we let people who cheat on their spouses re-marry. Hell, pretty much everything's a sin, so why is homosexuality the only sin that disqualifies you from being able to marry?

Also, I never said that homosexuality is a sin. I was purely sating the obvious, and that is, many Christians believe that having sex with the same gender is a sin, not being homosexual. It would save time to read what I wrote, you know.

Ah, so you posted to defend Christians who condemn homosexuals as sinners and second class citizens, and then when people called you out on it, you get annoyed because they are treating you like you condemn homosexuality yourself...

Yeah, that seems reasonable

[Jafas United]

Ah, so you posted to defend Christians who condemn homosexuals as sinners and second class citizens, and then when people called you out on it, you get annoyed because they are treating you like you condemn homosexuality yourself...

Yeah, that seems reasonable

Oh for fuck's sake, you're on a roll here, aren't you. If you actually bothered to read a few sentences, you would realise that I wasn't defending anyone at all. All I did was state that (and I'll make it large for you) in most Christian denominations, being homosexual isn't a sin, but having homosexual sex is.

I'm getting annoyed that you're having problems with reading my posts.

[Phaedrus Imperator]

No, they're just not all ...

And you too. That looks like a personal attack to me.

I'm not reporting it. I'm that damn certain it IS a personal attack. I'll give you a chance to edit it out.

Post on the topic please.

I'm just voicing an opinion. Granted, it was quite the personal attack. I'm just saying that churches shouldn't really exist in my opinion, let alone be established. Sorry for swinging too far in another direction.

Anyway...
I do think that it is a problem. Religion is not having such a powerful impact any more, but it is generally a hinderence to progress. Establishment makes it worse.
Can you imagine it if the Catholic church was the most established?

[AiliailiA]

Your spoiler is empty...

Do you have evidence that the Danish government is actively trying to destroy the Church of Denmark?

Evidence! How many do you need? They are by law forcing the church to carry out homosexual weddings even though a majority of the bishops are against the government's intervention.

Does the government try to force other churches to perform "homosexual" marriages?

I honestly don't know. A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

Confirmation classes are removed from the schedule in most public schools. Christian knowledge is being downgraded in public schools in general. in addition they are forcing Christian private schools the teach the students about the false doctrine of Darwin's theory of evolution.

Whoa!

You're a THEOCRAT. You're actually arguing for the government to continue funding and enforcing religious beliefs!

Confirmation classes in school should be done (if at all) out of class time. e.g. as a lunchtime "club" activity.
Christian knowledge should be taught (if at all) explicitly separate from other knowledge.
Darwin's theory of evolution is one of the best-established theories in biology. All children should be taught it ... your religion is no excuse to keep a child from learning such basic science.

You are on-topic. Only just though.

[Terruana]

Ah, so you posted to defend Christians who condemn homosexuals as sinners and second class citizens, and then when people called you out on it, you get annoyed because they are treating you like you condemn homosexuality yourself...

Yeah, that seems reasonable

Oh for fuck's sake, you're on a roll here, aren't you. If you actually bothered to read a few sentences, you would realise that I wasn't defending anyone at all. All I did was state that (and I'll make it large for you) in most Christian denominations, being homosexual isn't a sin, but having homosexual sex is.

I'm getting annoyed that you're having problems with reading my posts.

Yes, the post that started "to be fair" was in no way defending anything

I read your post. And you were defending the Christian view of homosexuality. Your defence was that homosexual sex is a sin, not just being homosexual. My point is, and always was, that there is no difference. It's pretty much the same thing.

[Phaedrus Imperator]

Your spoiler is empty...

Do you have evidence that the Danish government is actively trying to destroy the Church of Denmark?

Evidence! How many do you need? They are by law forcing the church to carry out homosexual weddings even though a majority of the bishops are against the government's intervention. Confirmation classes are removed from the schedule in most public schools. Christian knowledge is being downgraded in public schools in general. in addition they are forcing Christian private schools the teach the students about the false doctrine of Darwin's theory of evolution.

See, this is why I dislike establishment of fundamentalism in schools. It is tantamount to brainwashing. Establishing such a doctrine is evil and should be illegal.

[Socialdemokraterne]

They are by law forcing the church to carry out homosexual weddings even though a majority of the bishops are against the government's intervention.

Establishment of a state church (and they can duck and weave around that term all they want, that's what it ultimately amounts to) means that the government has the authority to dictate church policy. That's why establishment is a double-edged sword, that's the price you pay. Parliament and the Minister for Ecclesiastical Affairs have the authority to dictate that homosexual weddings be carried out in the Church of Denmark because there is no formal separation of church and state in Denmark.

The optimal course of action to resolve your complaint would be to call for the disestablishment of the Church of Denmark and its reformation into a private religious entity. That will bring all sorts of questions to the fore (such as continuation of management of cemeteries and access thereto), but it would give the church a chance to establish a central authority of its own and assume control of all administrative duties.

So that brings us back to the question that the thread seeks to examine, and I direct it to you: do you believe that the Church of Denmark should stay the official, public church, or that it should break away from the government and render Denmark a secular nation?

Confirmation classes are removed from the schedule in most public schools.

And the government is fully within its rights to do this. Also? This doesn't entail any sort of destruction of the Church of Denmark regardless of its status as a public or private religious entity.

Christian knowledge is being downgraded in public schools in general.

You're going to have to give this part some sort of substantive meaning. What is "Christian knowledge"? And regardless of what it is, what in the world is wrong with the government determining what public schools' curricula are anyway?

in addition they are forcing Christian private schools the teach the students about the false doctrine of Darwin's theory of evolution.

Is it actual state intervention in private schools' curricula, is it simply setting minimum curricular standards for acceptance into public universities, what? I've looked through Google News with various search terms and come up with nothing on this.

[Socialdemokraterne]

Does the government try to force other churches to perform "homosexual" marriages?

I honestly don't know. A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Short answer is an emphatic "kinda"!

http://cphpost.dk/news/national/has-tim ... -and-state

It's in English, don't worry.

[Jafas United]

Oh for fuck's sake, you're on a roll here, aren't you. If you actually bothered to read a few sentences, you would realise that I wasn't defending anyone at all. All I did was state that (and I'll make it large for you) in most Christian denominations, being homosexual isn't a sin, but having homosexual sex is.

I'm getting annoyed that you're having problems with reading my posts.

Yes, the post that started "to be fair" was in no way defending anything

I read your post. And you were defending the Christian view of homosexuality. Your defence was that homosexual sex is a sin, not just being homosexual. My point is, and always was, that there is no difference. It's pretty much the same thing.

No it wasn't. It's called clarifying.The other poster was saying that homosexuality in itself is said to be a sin in Christianity. I disputed that. Remember to keep the posts in context too.

And how on earth was I defending the Christian view on homosexuality? I was say that CHRISTIANS view homosexual sex as a sin. I never said whether it was right or wrong, I plainly said what they believed. Nowhere did I voice my opinion.

Do keep it up.