Question and opinions

[Louis Van Boxel Woolf]

They don't find the idea that companies will keep wages tolerable and products safe and in good quality when there is no regulation stopping them compelling. They also believe that the governments of the industrial revolution (where conditions for workers were terrible) were laissez faire, despite the fact that unions were banned (meaning wages would stay low and conditions poor) and trade was highly protected (screwing over poorer countries).

[Allbeama]

[quot495329"][quote="History Of course it`s thier fault. They fail they pay the price for it by becoming poor.

Random layoffs, unforeseen accidents, sudden overwhelming illness, need I continue?

Listen every worker should be hired because of thier abllity. a accident happens some times. But the worker will get to go to a hospitol and become healed. If that worker lived under a fully privatised Healthcare system he would be easily able to pay for the treatment he needed.


if the healthcare system is privatised and all regulations on the insurance industry was removed. everyone would be insured
Besides if they are slacking off or doing a bad job they must be fired.

bold part fails. If this were so there would not be a large number of uninsured folks in the US, and no reform movement regarding health care would exist.[/quote]


If the healthcare system was fully privatised and all regulations on the insurance industry was removed. Everyone would be insured[/quote]

No because then the insurance companies would get together and form a trust and set the prices at a number that only the well off in society could afford. Some would get it through work benefits, but minimum wage earners and unskilled laborers would be uninsured. Which is how it stands now in a place called REALITY.

[History land]

See: the banking industry and subprime mortgage lending
See: dangerous product recalls
See: the abuses of working class people, particularly the undocumented, illegal workers
See: poverty and disease in the working/lower class
See: monopolies

Ok I see the problem here.

The subprime mortgage lending was to help the poor people who could not afford a home.

A company will suffer if there is a dangerous product.

Any abused worker would leave thier jobs. Illigeal workers should be agisnt the law they are illigeal. Anyone who comes in the nation illigeal is obvously a crimminal.


Monopolies would not exsit in my ideal society. But in the mixed economys monopolies will exsit
Plus poverty will always exsit

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Monopolies would not exsit in my ideal society.

Economies of scale. How can you so passionately defend an economic theory when it is obvious that you don't even possess Econ 101 level knowledge?

[Natapoc]

History land, you are a victim of propaganda. I know you won't believe me. It is a good thing you are studying this. Please keep studying anarcho-capitalism but broaden your studies into other areas also. Eventually I have faith that you will come out of this with your mind

Rand creates an imaginary world which is in some ways like the real world but in other (very important) ways not like the real world. When she is told this she creates elaborate justifications with no real evidence that the real world would be like her imaginary world if only things changed in the ways she wants them changed.

Rand then makes imaginary people which inhabit this imaginary world. These imaginary people are rational actors and individualists. The idea that humans are rational or individualists in any way requires an amount of faith greater then any religion.

I have never seen any human that acts rationally nor have I seen any human who acts entirely as an individual. Humans act according to biological and social needs. All humans do.

Even you. Otherwise you would not be posting here trying to get approval from other humans you have never met.

So humans are social and irrational but Rand really really really wants humans to be rational individualists. Since she really wants humans to be this way she decides to put great effort into providing excuses for why humans are not often observed acting the way she claims is natural to them.

I also take offense at your claim that the rational individual exploits the resources of the earth. What gives a person the right to exploit the earth? The earth gives everything freely to all beings who inhabit it equally. When you take more then your fair share of this free gift you have stolen from others who have been deprived by your gluttony.

When you destroy parts of the earth so that you can become "richer" compared to other humans you destroy the future production potential of the earth and you have stolen from future generations.

edit: Oh by the way there is a great union which has none of the bad points you mentioned about unions earlier. It is called IWW. I hope you will research them http://www.iww.org/

[Allbeama]

See: the banking industry and subprime mortgage lending
See: dangerous product recalls
See: the abuses of working class people, particularly the undocumented, illegal workers
See: poverty and disease in the working/lower class
See: monopolies

Ok I see the problem here.

The subprime mortgage lending was to help the poor people who could not afford a home.

A company will suffer if there is a dangerous product.

Any abused worker would leave thier jobs. Illigeal workers should be agisnt the law they are illigeal. Anyone who comes in the nation illigeal is obvously a crimminal.


Monopolies would not exsit in my ideal society. But in the mixed economys monopolies will exsit
Plus poverty will always exsit

See: the banking industry and subprime mortgage lending
These people do not help the poor, they keep the poor in debt to make their profits.Unless regulated this will happen.
See: dangerous product recalls
Happen because initial safety testing is/was lax due to a lack of regulation.
See: the abuses of working class people, particularly the undocumented, illegal workers
Unions are key to prevent this yet you would see them disappear.
See: poverty and disease in the working/lower class
Because unregulated capitalism, without welfare, would care nothing for alleviating the suffering of working class citizens.
See: monopolies
Would happen in an unregulated society because there would be no force powerful enough to prevent it.

[Ryadn]

A company would not sell a dangerous vehical because it would not make a profit. No car dealer will sell it if it`s dangerous since they won`t buy it.

Ralph Nader's on the phone. I think he wants to have a word with you, but he won't stop shouting expletives.

[Ryadn]

Plus Humans are rational beings there are some who follow the irational and the ones that follow the irational ideas will be destoryed by reality.

The day an NSer predicted his own demise...eerie, folks.

[History land]

All right then I`ll go along with your ideas for society.


I run a company I want to make a new product but wait the new product will be dangerous to the enviorment. So I can`t make the product but it would have help humans but hurt the enviorment a little. But the enviorment is safe

I still have a company and I pay my workers a fair wage. But wait The Union demanded that I raise the wage to 1 million dollars because it would help them. They are defending agianst the abuse and thing the wage is too small. But the workers think the wage is fair but the union barginers say that they are wrong. So they sue me when I dissagre and the courts agree forcing me to pay 1 million dollars to every workers. But the unions get me to take away any payment to non-union workers.

But the unions helped the workers that I was clearly abusing with my fair wage.


I ahve decided not the back a certian politician running for a office. That person wins but the company who did back him uses his pull to hurt my company using regulations. But the people are more safe now thanks to the new regulations.

I have decided not to give money to charity. But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others. I may have lost all of my money and it`s hard for me to earn some thanks to the new 1 million dollar wage. But I sacraficed for society.


Some people got hurt because one person was over drinking. I am have to pay so he can have free healthcare because he is poor. I can`t pay alot but I can`t lower the new fair wage which has been raised to 4 million dollars because 1 million dollars were clearly unfair to the union workers.

But I still pay with the help of the union but I had to raise it 65 million since 4 million wasn`t enough to pay for everyone`s car and house. So I helped people but I sacraficed and Helped.


The Union forces me to hire all the workers that need a job. So the unions in thier infinte knowldge of thier wokers. Make me hire more workers because of need not of abllity. Too bad all the good workers are gone. But all the bad ones got a job. Also the union make me raise it to 90 million dollars. seeing that I was being unfair with only 65 million.

[Katganistan]

See: the banking industry and subprime mortgage lending
See: dangerous product recalls
See: the abuses of working class people, particularly the undocumented, illegal workers
See: poverty and disease in the working/lower class
See: monopolies

Ok I see the problem here.

The subprime mortgage lending was to help the poor people who could not afford a home.

A company will suffer if there is a dangerous product.

Any abused worker would leave thier jobs. Illigeal workers should be agisnt the law they are illigeal. Anyone who comes in the nation illigeal is obvously a crimminal.


Monopolies would not exsit in my ideal society. But in the mixed economys monopolies will exsit
Plus poverty will always exsit

Ok, I see the problem here.

In a fantasy world that a writer created, with people she designed from the top down, who don't act like real people, with a ridiculous plot about a perpetual energy device, and a masturbatory self-righteous fantasy about how the poor deserve their fate, all the (Mary Sue and Gary Stu) geniuses who are naturally perfect in every way and therefore are successful leave, and the world falls apart.

In the real world, the subprime mortgages were to help the banks, who repossessed and resold the homes they knew poor people could never afford to own. Unfortunately, their selfishness was short-sighted and they repeated this cycle so often that they could no longer resell the houses nor extend credit to poor credit risks to occupy said houses.

In the real world, companies produce crap products all the time.

In the real world,the threat of starvation and homelessness prevent people from leaving their jobs.

In the real world, business owners employ illegal aliens because it's cheaper and because they know they don't dare complain to the government when they are paid less than the minimum wage and have no health benefits.

In the real world, monopolies do exist unless curtailed by government.

So basically, there is a failure here to understand the difference between reality and fantasy more glaring than an adult who believes that Santa Claus will be dropping off presents on Christmas Eve and snacking on the cookies and milk they've left out.

[Conserative Morality]

All right then I`ll go along with your ideas for society.


I run a company I want to make a new product but wait the new product will be dangerous to the enviorment. So I can`t make the product but it would have help humans but hurt the enviorment a little. But the enviorment is safe

I still have a company and I pay my workers a fair wage. But wait The Union demanded that I raise the wage to 1 million dollars because it would help them. They are defending agianst the abuse and thing the wage is too small. But the workers think the wage is fair but the union barginers say that they are wrong. So they sue me when I dissagre and the courts agree forcing me to pay 1 million dollars to every workers. But the unions get me to take away any payment to non-union workers.

But the unions helped the workers that I was clearly abusing with my fair wage.


I ahve decided not the back a certian politician running for a office. That person wins but the company who did back him uses his pull to hurt my company using regulations. But the people are more safe now thanks to the new regulations.

I have decided not to give money to charity. But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others. I may have lost all of my money and it`s hard for me to earn some thanks to the new 1 million dollar wage. But I sacraficed for society.


Some people got hurt because one person was over drinking. I am have to pay so he can have free healthcare because he is poor. I can`t pay alot but I can`t lower the new fair wage which has been raised to 4 million dollars because 1 million dollars were clearly unfair to the union workers.

But I still pay with the help of the union but I had to raise it 65 million since 4 million wasn`t enough to pay for everyone`s car and house. So I helped people but I sacraficed and Helped.


The Union forces me to hire all the workers that need a job. So the unions in thier infinte knowldge of thier wokers. Make me hire more workers because of need not of abllity. Too bad all the good workers are gone. But all the bad ones got a job. Also the union make me raise it to 90 million dollars. seeing that I was being unfair with only 65 million.

I have but one response to this:

[History land]

All right then I`ll go along with your ideas for society.


I run a company I want to make a new product but wait the new product will be dangerous to the enviorment. So I can`t make the product but it would have help humans but hurt the enviorment a little. But the enviorment is safe

I still have a company and I pay my workers a fair wage. But wait The Union demanded that I raise the wage to 1 million dollars because it would help them. They are defending agianst the abuse and thing the wage is too small. But the workers think the wage is fair but the union barginers say that they are wrong. So they sue me when I dissagre and the courts agree forcing me to pay 1 million dollars to every workers. But the unions get me to take away any payment to non-union workers.

But the unions helped the workers that I was clearly abusing with my fair wage.


I ahve decided not the back a certian politician running for a office. That person wins but the company who did back him uses his pull to hurt my company using regulations. But the people are more safe now thanks to the new regulations.

I have decided not to give money to charity. But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others. I may have lost all of my money and it`s hard for me to earn some thanks to the new 1 million dollar wage. But I sacraficed for society.


Some people got hurt because one person was over drinking. I am have to pay so he can have free healthcare because he is poor. I can`t pay alot but I can`t lower the new fair wage which has been raised to 4 million dollars because 1 million dollars were clearly unfair to the union workers.

But I still pay with the help of the union but I had to raise it 65 million since 4 million wasn`t enough to pay for everyone`s car and house. So I helped people but I sacraficed and Helped.


The Union forces me to hire all the workers that need a job. So the unions in thier infinte knowldge of thier wokers. Make me hire more workers because of need not of abllity. Too bad all the good workers are gone. But all the bad ones got a job. Also the union make me raise it to 90 million dollars. seeing that I was being unfair with only 65 million.

I have but one response to this:

But it`s everyone ideas they like these ideas

[History land]

I mean the unions leaders decieded that they need all that money and if I didn`t raise it I would have been abusing them.

[Ryadn]

It strikes me you would be better off theorizing in the other direction. Like non-Euclidean Geometry, start from the opposing premise then flesh out your theoretical model. That is:
Assume that people do NOT choose to be rational often enough to make it a GIVEN.

By the time you got done fleshing out the model you'd be a helluva lot closer to Reality than where you're going now.

It's not about reality, he's made that very clear. It's about him justifying how he's such an individualist and a self-made rational man.

You know, in my day, we just dyed our hair weird colors and listened to punk. And it was better.

[Ryadn]

wrong your self-intrests must not impeade on the rights of others.

why?

Because a regulation told me so?

Ooh, burrrrrn.

[Conserative Morality]

But it`s everyone ideas they like these ideas

Friend, you need a nice, healthy dose of reality.

[History land]

But it`s everyone ideas they like these ideas

Friend, you need a nice, healthy dose of reality.

I do know reality I just showed what would happen if the world accepted the ideas they preeched. you know Union Control,More Reuglaitons,Forceful taxation to pay for welfare and free healthcare.

[Katganistan]

But it`s everyone ideas they like these ideas

Friend, you need a nice, healthy dose of reality.

I do know reality I just showed what would happen if the world accepted the ideas they preeched. you know Union Control,More Reuglaitons,Forceful taxation to pay for welfare and free healthcare.

No, you didn't. You just made stuff up.

[Conserative Morality]

I do know reality I just showed what would happen if the world accepted the ideas they preeched. you know Union Control,More Reuglaitons,Forceful taxation to pay for welfare and free healthcare.

No. No you don't know reality. I think this is quite obvious.

[Allbeama]

All right then I`ll go along with your ideas for society.


I run a company I want to make a new product but wait the new product will be dangerous to the enviorment. So I can`t make the product but it would have help humans but hurt the enviorment a little. But the enviorment is safe

I still have a company and I pay my workers a fair wage. But wait The Union demanded that I raise the wage to 1 million dollars because it would help them. They are defending agianst the abuse and thing the wage is too small. But the workers think the wage is fair but the union barginers say that they are wrong. So they sue me when I dissagre and the courts agree forcing me to pay 1 million dollars to every workers. But the unions get me to take away any payment to non-union workers.

But the unions helped the workers that I was clearly abusing with my fair wage.


I ahve decided not the back a certian politician running for a office. That person wins but the company who did back him uses his pull to hurt my company using regulations. But the people are more safe now thanks to the new regulations.

I have decided not to give money to charity. But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others. I may have lost all of my money and it`s hard for me to earn some thanks to the new 1 million dollar wage. But I sacraficed for society.


Some people got hurt because one person was over drinking. I am have to pay so he can have free healthcare because he is poor. I can`t pay alot but I can`t lower the new fair wage which has been raised to 4 million dollars because 1 million dollars were clearly unfair to the union workers.

But I still pay with the help of the union but I had to raise it 65 million since 4 million wasn`t enough to pay for everyone`s car and house. So I helped people but I sacraficed and Helped.


The Union forces me to hire all the workers that need a job. So the unions in thier infinte knowldge of thier wokers. Make me hire more workers because of need not of abllity. Too bad all the good workers are gone. But all the bad ones got a job. Also the union make me raise it to 90 million dollars. seeing that I was being unfair with only 65 million.

1: you could design the product to not harm the environment too much.
2: Unions don't work that way.
3: only a percentage of your income would go to welfare programs, because you are not the only one with money right?
4: Corporations shouldn't be running the government not sure why you brought that up.
5:This is somewhat incoherent but it sounds like your general anti-public option crap. This would be handled in a similar matter as #3.
6: Unions don't work that way.

[Natapoc]

This is what everyone is talking about history land. You just made up a fiction. A story that did not happen to you in real life and you want us to base real world decisions on your fantasy. Look at what you wrote agian and tell me if you have seen that happen to anyone ever.

I have never heard of a union demanding 1 million dollar salaries for anyone. Also check out IWW like I said. They don't have the problem of being exclusive like your pretend union you claimed is making you pay your employees 4 million. (btw, could you tell me the name of your company? I'd like to get that 4 mil you are offering)

http://www.iww.org/

All right then I`ll go along with your ideas for society.


I run a company I want to make a new product but wait the new product will be dangerous to the enviorment. So I can`t make the product but it would have help humans but hurt the enviorment a little. But the enviorment is safe

I still have a company and I pay my workers a fair wage. But wait The Union demanded that I raise the wage to 1 million dollars because it would help them. They are defending agianst the abuse and thing the wage is too small. But the workers think the wage is fair but the union barginers say that they are wrong. So they sue me when I dissagre and the courts agree forcing me to pay 1 million dollars to every workers. But the unions get me to take away any payment to non-union workers.

But the unions helped the workers that I was clearly abusing with my fair wage.


I ahve decided not the back a certian politician running for a office. That person wins but the company who did back him uses his pull to hurt my company using regulations. But the people are more safe now thanks to the new regulations.

I have decided not to give money to charity. But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others. I may have lost all of my money and it`s hard for me to earn some thanks to the new 1 million dollar wage. But I sacraficed for society.


Some people got hurt because one person was over drinking. I am have to pay so he can have free healthcare because he is poor. I can`t pay alot but I can`t lower the new fair wage which has been raised to 4 million dollars because 1 million dollars were clearly unfair to the union workers.

But I still pay with the help of the union but I had to raise it 65 million since 4 million wasn`t enough to pay for everyone`s car and house. So I helped people but I sacraficed and Helped.


The Union forces me to hire all the workers that need a job. So the unions in thier infinte knowldge of thier wokers. Make me hire more workers because of need not of abllity. Too bad all the good workers are gone. But all the bad ones got a job. Also the union make me raise it to 90 million dollars. seeing that I was being unfair with only 65 million.

[Ryadn]

The only reason people are poor is because they have failed in life. Plus the moast of the good things for you are things they can afford. Plus why would I want to be poor it is not in my rational self-intrests to be poor.

I really didn't think anyone actually believed this. I thought it was just a leftist strawman of the right, but here we are, a real live example of "It's entirely their fault that they're poor."

What do we think: Poe, or 14-year-old dyslexic? Is it possible to misspell "most" by accident? I'm pretty sure if I typed as fast as I could without pause and didn't edit, I still wouldn't have half as many typos.

[History land]

"]

But it`s everyone ideas they like these ideas

Friend, you need a nice, healthy dose of reality.

I do know reality I just showed what would happen if the world accepted the ideas they preeched. you know Union Control,More Reuglaitons,Forceful taxation to pay for welfare and free healthcare.

No, you didn't. You just made stuff up.[/quote]

No I didn`t it`s the idea you preech. There were more regulations and the unions incresead the wages even thought the workers were ok with the wage I had placed. But the union bargners with thier Superior knowldge to decided how much workers make. Even though non-union workers starved. Union workers were payed

[Conserative Morality]

"]
No I didn`t it`s the idea you preech. There were more regulations and the unions incresead the wages even thought the workers were ok with the wage I had placed. But the union bargners with thier Superior knowldge to decided how much workers make. Even though non-union workers starved. Union workers were payed

Oh God! My brain is trying to escape from the sheer stupidity of this post, without the rest of the body! It's every organ for itself!

[Ryadn]

But the goverment found out and issue a new tax forcing me to give all of my income to pay for the welfare of others.

I couldn't force my way through most of that, but this caught my eye. Did you know your NS nation has a 100% income tax?