British Empire - Good or Bad?

[Retoa]

British Empire - Good or Bad?

Yes

Are you trying to do an impression of me, by any chance?

[Allied Governments]

Name one country that truly shaped the world without racking up a body count.

So 'shaping' the world according to your own culture excuses the committing of crimes against humanity, does it?

Pretty much.

[Johz]

In b4 SGoE...

Well, as a Brit, I reckon the Empire wasn't a great example of human rights. However, it wasn't as bad as it could have been, and the Commowealth was extremely important during WWII. So, yeah, it's quite even. I voted that it was bad, because even wasn't an option.

[H-Alba]

I'm more proud of being a Highlander, and an Ethno-Linguistic Gael, but that doesn't make me "not Scottish". I'm proud of the Gaelic Culture, more then I am of just "being Scottish over all". Would you prefer I be more specific in my signature?

By all means, because I don't remember you ever having much love for the Lowland culture. And if one is able to be a proud Highlander and consider oneself Scottish in general, I see no reason why the buck must stop at Hadrian's Wall and you can't identify as British as well.

I never have, nor will I ever identify myself as British. I've always identified myself as Scottish when asked for a nationality, or as an ethnic Gael when asked for ethnicity.

[Shikarta]

So 'shaping' the world according to your own culture excuses the committing of crimes against humanity, does it?

Pretty much.

Nazi Germany tried to 'shape' the world too, and they certainly spread technology through forceful means. Does that legitimise their actions as well?

[SD_Film Artists]

Before Lord Dacre, the "kilt" was the full-body thing that you see in Medieval 2 Total War.

And if Scottish soldiers playing the bagpipe while wearing kilts in the Empire isn't "Scottish culture" then I don't know what is.

As for the gaelic language, oppressed by who? And please, let's not get into Mel Gibson hyperbole.

The lowland Scots, who are anglophones. My granddad had the tawse used on him, just for speaking Gaelic in School, and it was common for Gaels to be beat after school for using the language. That's really "being friendly" isn't it?

Oppressed not nearly so much by the English as by the Lowlanders, who granted spoke English, but formed from the 15th century on (or even earlier) the nucleus of the state of Scotland, and to this day dislike England more than they do the 'Teuchters'. Curiously enough, however, despite being acutely aware of the Highland-Lowland divide within Scotland, H Alba seems to declare pride in being Scottish as a whole (and that whole has for many centuries been Anglophone Lowland dominated), rather than in being a Highlander.

I'm more proud of being a Highlander, and an Ethno-Linguistic Gael, but that doesn't make me "not Scottish". I'm proud of the Gaelic Culture, more then I am of just "being Scottish over all". Would you prefer I be more specific in my signature?

Ethno Gael?

Please, we're all Celtic-Germanic (and countless more, if you count non-Caucasians). It's just more convenient of Scottish nationalists to create a "Scottish/gaelic ethnicity" in order to create a culture of "us-VS-them". England isn't just Normans or Romans.

[SD_Film Artists]

Creating railways in Zulu-era Africa without force.....hmmmmmmmmmm

Can you do anything in Africa without force?

That's quite dependent on if there's an enemy.

[South Norfair]

You'd take it, but nobody asked those elder civilizations what they would take, it was just imposed on them and in most cases it didn't work as well as the previous system.

Who cares? If they were able to be beaten into submission by an island half way around the world, they were past their prime and had grow stagnant. New countries rise and overtake the old powers. Its the progression of history.

Social darwinism, how cute. Your noble democracy doesn't sound that democratic now, does it?

Well, you said it: British Empire = Evil (and a tad hypocritical)

[Tiriodh]

As a citizen of the former 14th British colony in America, I'm rather divided. On the one hand, they spread a lot of ideas around the world that I rather like, but at the same time they could be rather oppressive and racist at times.

Aye and I imagine if I were to come around to a posters house, kick the door in, punch him in the face, tie him up and then do the washing and ironing, people would still think i'm a total arse and not 'good'

[Aurora-Nova]

Living in a former British colony, Canada, I feel, on the whole, that the impact of the British Empire was equally good and bad, in various aspects and various places. I still oppose it on the basis, however, that the idea of empire is unappealing to me, and I believe that people everywhere should be able to manage their own affairs. I'm also opposed to it from a colonial perspective, and think that areas that were colonized by Europeans and had their native populations nearly wiped out - the Americas and Oceania in particular - should be returned, where possible, to their original inhabitants.

[Allied Governments]

Pretty much.

Nazi Germany tried to 'shape' the world too, and they certainly spread technology through forceful means. Does that legitimise their actions as well?

What kind of world was Nazi Germany living in as opposed to the British when they were making their empire? It's downright stupid to try and impose modern day ethics and morality to people who lived 200-300 years ago, they had completely different outlooks on a ton of things.

Maybe I should make a thread saying how the Roman Gladiatorial games were barbaric, or how the Aztecs and Mayans were bloodthirsty savages that pretty much deserved to be wiped out.

[Shikarta]

Ethno Gael?

I believe he said ethno-linguistic, and Scottish Gaelic speakers are an ethnolinguistic group. Contrary to opinion from down south, there exists a rather distinct culture. We're not all the same as those in England.

[H-Alba]

The lowland Scots, who are anglophones. My granddad had the tawse used on him, just for speaking Gaelic in School, and it was common for Gaels to be beat after school for using the language. That's really "being friendly" isn't it?


I'm more proud of being a Highlander, and an Ethno-Linguistic Gael, but that doesn't make me "not Scottish". I'm proud of the Gaelic Culture, more then I am of just "being Scottish over all". Would you prefer I be more specific in my signature?

Ethno Gael?

Please, we're all Celtic-Germanic (and countless more, if you count non-Caucasians). It's just more convenient of Scottish nationalists to create a "Scottish/gaelic ethnicity" in order to create a culture of "us-VS-them". England isn't just Normans or Romans.

The Gaels, or Goidels is and always has been an Ethno-Linguistic culture. It's the proper name for the Gaelic Celts in Ireland and Scotland, just like Brythonic in Wales.

[Angleter]

By all means, because I don't remember you ever having much love for the Lowland culture. And if one is able to be a proud Highlander and consider oneself Scottish in general, I see no reason why the buck must stop at Hadrian's Wall and you can't identify as British as well.

I never have, nor will I ever identify myself as British. I've always identified myself as Scottish when asked for a nationality, or as an ethnic Gael when asked for ethnicity.

Why not, though? If a Highland Gael is able to appreciate their Scottishness that is shared with the Lowlanders who discriminated against them, then why on Earth is the notion of also appreciating what one shares with England, Northern Ireland and Wales so unpalatable?

[Euroslavia]

As a citizen of the former 14th British colony in America, I'm rather divided. On the one hand, they spread a lot of ideas around the world that I rather like, but at the same time they could be rather oppressive and racist at times.

Aye and I imagine if I were to come around to a posters house, kick the door in, punch him in the face, tie him up and then do the washing and ironing, people would still think i'm a total arse and not 'good'

Add cooking dinner into the equation and I may lean towards good. Especially if it's spaghetti.

[Stonec]

Judging Imperialist era civilizations by modern standards is just redundant anyway. Yes, what the colonial powers (Prominent among them Britain) did was terrible, but judging them by modern standards doesn't make sense. This was when fantastic racism was seen as a perfectly normal characteristic for a gentleman, and social and political darwinism was the driving force behind most if not all major politics. If the native peoples in a country had something that the colonialists wanted, then more than likely they would take it. Then the colonialists would fight amongst themselves for whatever goodies were left behind, and the winner would rip off the native peoples again. It is tragic and inexcusable by modern standards, but that's just the way the world worked back then. I know some managed it more than others, (Like the dutch establishing schools in Indonesia) but these were the exceptions rather than the rule. Sad, but true.

[Nazis in Space]

Creating railways in Zulu-era Africa without force.....hmmmmmmmmmm

Can you do anything in Africa without force?

Irrelevant?

Those railways weren't exactly meant as development aid, you know. Any benefits for native populations were strictly coincidental - the last time that an Empire genuinely desired to make things better for its subjugated people, rather than just engaging in kleptocratic activities was... 450 B.C. or so.

When getting rid of the native populations was more beneficial (And achievable) than keeping them around as cheap labour, the native populations were gotten rid of. See, say, Tasmania, and substantial stretches of the American East Coast, among others.

It's valid to say that the Empire's expansion into certain areas did, ultimately, boost these area's productivity, and eventually even showed some actual benefits (Chiefly medical ones) for the natives. But these things were quite, quite coincidental.

Saying 'But Britain brought them railways!' is sort of like saying that 'Hey, Nazi Germany had the benefit of advancing rocketry!'

Admittedly, a lot of people say the latter, too. It's an equally retarded thing to say, though.

[Tiriodh]

Aye and I imagine if I were to come around to a posters house, kick the door in, punch him in the face, tie him up and then do the washing and ironing, people would still think i'm a total arse and not 'good'

Add cooking dinner into the equation and I may lean towards good. Especially if it's spaghetti.

Fine but only if I get to help you get a taste for some good quality opium. Don't worry though i'll pop back and give you some more whenever you fancy.......for a small fee

[Uawc]

All empires are bad. Imperialism is bad; it involves a few gaining at the expense of many. Whole nations are slaughtered in the name of imperialist nationalism and privilege. Read Walter Rodney's How Europe Underdeveloped Africa for more information.

[New Phyrreus]

All nations based on imperialism are bad, including Britain

I wonder where you'd draw the line there.

Nazi Germany and Japan were imperial, and i think many would agree that British empire forces were no where near as oppresive as they

[Aurora-Nova]

Judging Imperialist era civilizations by modern standards is just redundant anyway. Yes, what the colonial powers (Prominent among them Britain) did was terrible, but judging them by modern standards doesn't make sense. This was when fantastic racism was seen as a perfectly normal characteristic for a gentleman, and social and political darwinism was the driving force behind most if not all major politics. If the native peoples in a country had something that the colonialists wanted, then more than likely they would take it. Then the colonialists would fight amongst themselves for whatever goodies were left behind, and the winner would rip off the native peoples again. It is tragic and inexcusable by modern standards, but that's just the way the world worked back then. I know some managed it more than others, (Like the dutch establishing schools in Indonesia) but these were the exceptions rather than the rule. Sad, but true.

Despite my opposition based on modern standards, I do understand this point of view as well, and it has a lot of merit to it.

[Shikarta]

Nazi Germany tried to 'shape' the world too, and they certainly spread technology through forceful means. Does that legitimise their actions as well?

What kind of world was Nazi Germany living in as opposed to the British when they were making their empire? It's downright stupid to try and impose modern day ethics and morality to people who lived 200-300 years ago, they had completely different outlooks on a ton of things.

Maybe I should make a thread saying how the Roman Gladiatorial games were barbaric, or how the Aztecs and Mayans were bloodthirsty savages that pretty much deserved to be wiped out.

I'm terribly sorry, but the OP didn't appear to say "British Empire - Good or Bad according to the ethics of colonials during the eighteenth and nineteenth century".

[Parhe]

Nazi Germany tried to 'shape' the world too, and they certainly spread technology through forceful means. Does that legitimise their actions as well?

What kind of world was Nazi Germany living in as opposed to the British when they were making their empire? It's downright stupid to try and impose modern day ethics and morality to people who lived 200-300 years ago, they had completely different outlooks on a ton of things.

Maybe I should make a thread saying how the Roman Gladiatorial games were barbaric, or how the Aztecs and Mayans were bloodthirsty savages that pretty much deserved to be wiped out.

Maybe you should, I agree the games were barbaric and the Aztecs and Mayans were somewhat savage like. But I wouldn't call them exactly bloodthirsty, and I wouldn't say they deserved to be wiped out.

[SD_Film Artists]

Ethno Gael?

I believe he said ethno-linguistic, and Scottish Gaelic speakers are an ethnolinguistic group. Contrary to opinion from down south, there exists a rather distinct culture. We're not all the same as those in England.

Ah sorry, I thought he meant an ethnicity.

[H-Alba]

I never have, nor will I ever identify myself as British. I've always identified myself as Scottish when asked for a nationality, or as an ethnic Gael when asked for ethnicity.

Why not, though? If a Highland Gael is able to appreciate their Scottishness that is shared with the Lowlanders who discriminated against them, then why on Earth is the notion of also appreciating what one shares with England, Northern Ireland and Wales so unpalatable?

I was born in Scotland, that is the nation and country I was born in. I do not like the culture of the Lowlands, nor do I "appreciate it". All I can do is say the country I was born in. There are Americans who are not proud to be American, does this mean they can't call themselves americans? I'm Scottish, because it's the country I was born in, but I'm proud of the Highland Culture I was raised in.