The Warhammer 40.000/Fantasy Discussion Thread Mk.III

[Baltenstein]

I beat the 3rd champion and he does show up, with the option to either join him or fight him. I chose the former, figuring the latter would just prolong the campaign. He appeared in the Chaos Wastes with something like 10 Level 3 Lords with fully stacked 20/20 armies. If I had chosen to confront him, I would have had to fight all that on my own? Yikes...

Currently we're rampaging through the Southern Imperial provinces together most of which are at public order -80, Chaos corruption 50% + thanks to my plague. I figure the end of the campaign won't take too long now.

I remember a campaign I played in the first game where I did too well. I was playing as Dwarfs, and focused on speed-boosting economic and military growth before looking into diplomacy. However, the result was that I was so powerful that no-one would negotiate so much as a trade deal or defensive treaty that included military access with me. I would make far too much money from the former for their algorithms to allow, and they were too wary of my military for the latter. I had to sit twiddling my thumbs for turn after turn once Archaon invaded because even with most of their land in flames the Empire would not allow me to send troops into their territory to help.
Once he finally got done with them, I crushed him almost pathetically easily. That campaign was all wrong in many ways.

That's strange, I thought Archaon's arrival usually triggers an automatic free access military alliance between all the good factions (Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs).
I think the Dwarf campaign is generally the easiest. You're sitting in the bottom right corner of the map, with only the occasional Ork or Beastman army to annoy you, and they never seem to come with more than one Lord at a time. Once Archaon shows up, you have Kislev, the Empire, the Vampire Counts, and practically all the Dwarf factions for him to chew through before he can reach you and once he does, his stacks have considerably shrunken while you're at max strength.

[Tethys 13]

That's strange, I thought Archaon's arrival usually triggers an automatic free access military alliance between all the good factions (Empire, Bretonnia, Dwarfs).
I think the Dwarf campaign is generally the easiest. You're sitting in the bottom right corner of the map, with only the occasional Ork or Beastman army to annoy you, and they never seem to come with more than one Lord at a time. Once Archaon shows up, you have Kislev, the Empire, the Vampire Counts, and practically all the Dwarf factions for him to chew through before he can reach you and once he does, his stacks have considerably shrunken while you're at max strength.

In the first game it added a large positive bonus to the relationship value of those factions, making it easier to negotiate such things. For some reason, it just was not enough, even accompanied by top value gifts.

[Impaled Nazarene]

It seems to just be minor clans holding settlements. I have several non-aggression pacts with clans (because fighting skaven, elves, dwarfs, other orks, and beastmen at the same time sounds painful) i think my borders are clear for the moment but idk how to fight skaven on the map screen. Something tells me they're a massive pain in the ass to pin down and attack.

The Skaven get a unique basic stance on the campaign called Stalking which allows them to potentially ambush your army upon starting battle, which is a pain. And iirc they get bonuses for just using the regular ambush stance.

Skaven armies are also invisible when ever they are in their cities too unless you discover them.

What the actual fuck. How is Warhammer Fantasy even a contest? The fucking Skaven should be winning it without even trying.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The Skaven get a unique basic stance on the campaign called Stalking which allows them to potentially ambush your army upon starting battle, which is a pain. And iirc they get bonuses for just using the regular ambush stance.

Skaven armies are also invisible when ever they are in their cities too unless you discover them.

What the actual fuck. How is Warhammer Fantasy even a contest? The fucking Skaven should be winning it without even trying.

The problem with the Skaven in the lore is, despite all their advancements and technology they are an inherently paranoid race and constantly turn on one another. There have been multiple times throughout WHFB lore where it looked like the Skaven were on the cusp of victory over say the Empire or Bretonnia but fucked themselves over with constant backstabbing and scheming.

And in the game its usually pretty easy to tell where Skaven cities are, sort by corruption and look where Skaven corruption is high, and if you see ruins there, high chance its a skaven city. And despite having some amazing weapon teams they lack cavalry (bar doomwheels) and a lot of their units are just not that strong and they can have shit morale.

[Ameriganastan]

What the actual fuck. How is Warhammer Fantasy even a contest? The fucking Skaven should be winning it without even trying.

That's basically what Vermintide is.

[Baltenstein]

The Skaven get a unique basic stance on the campaign called Stalking which allows them to potentially ambush your army upon starting battle, which is a pain. And iirc they get bonuses for just using the regular ambush stance.

Skaven armies are also invisible when ever they are in their cities too unless you discover them.

What the actual fuck. How is Warhammer Fantasy even a contest? The fucking Skaven should be winning it without even trying.

Cue End Times where Skaven invent the telephone which leads to them overrunning like 3/4 of the world and blowing up the moon with super nukes.

For some reason they still kneel before Archaon though.

[Impaled Nazarene]

What the actual fuck. How is Warhammer Fantasy even a contest? The fucking Skaven should be winning it without even trying.

Cue End Times where Skaven invent the telephone which leads to them overrunning like 3/4 of the world and blowing up the moon with super nukes.

For some reason they still kneel before Archaon though.

Archaon can't even beat bandits

[Tethys 13]

Cue End Times where Skaven invent the telephone which leads to them overrunning like 3/4 of the world and blowing up the moon with super nukes.

For some reason they still kneel before Archaon though.

Archaon can't even beat bandits

The End Times was not good writing. When the writers apologise that they completely forgot the existence of a major character (Skarsnik), you cannot expect much quality from the rest of it.

[Ameriganastan]

Ooh, score. Inquisitor Martyr is on Game Pass.

EDIT: ...I was thinking of Space Hulk: Deathwing. I just spent almost 2 hours downloading the wrong game.

[Baltenstein]

Ooh, score. Inquisitor Martyr is on Game Pass.

EDIT: ...I was thinking of Space Hulk: Deathwing. I just spent almost 2 hours downloading the wrong game.

I found it mind-numbingly dull. Walking through identically looking barely-lit corridors blasting identically looking Genestealers over and over. I quit and deinstalled halfway through the second mission.

[Ameriganastan]

Ooh, score. Inquisitor Martyr is on Game Pass.

EDIT: ...I was thinking of Space Hulk: Deathwing. I just spent almost 2 hours downloading the wrong game.

I found it mind-numbingly dull. Walking through identically looking barely-lit corridors blasting identically looking Genestealers over and over. I quit and deinstalled halfway through the second mission.

Pretty much nailed it. How you can make a 40K game this dull is beyond me.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Ooh, score. Inquisitor Martyr is on Game Pass.

EDIT: ...I was thinking of Space Hulk: Deathwing. I just spent almost 2 hours downloading the wrong game.

I found it mind-numbingly dull. Walking through identically looking barely-lit corridors blasting identically looking Genestealers over and over. I quit and deinstalled halfway through the second mission.

Need a full party of friends and play on the higher difficulties. Makes it a fuck ton of fun.
I sadly have no friends.

[Baltenstein]

I found it mind-numbingly dull. Walking through identically looking barely-lit corridors blasting identically looking Genestealers over and over. I quit and deinstalled halfway through the second mission.

Pretty much nailed it. How you can make a 40K game this dull is beyond me.

To be fair though, this is probably what a Terminator routine operation on a derelict space hulk actually looks and feels like, down to the clunky movements and controls.

"Space Marine" OTOH is wildly unrealistic even from an in-universe POV (even the most experienced Space Marine Captain can't solo entire Ork Waaaghs, CSM Warbands and daemonic incursions), but it's a much more enjoyable game.

[Tethys 13]

Pretty much nailed it. How you can make a 40K game this dull is beyond me.

To be fair though, this is probably what a Terminator routine operation on a derelict space hulk actually looks and feels like, down to the clunky movements and controls.

"Space Marine" OTOH is wildly unrealistic even from an in-universe POV (even the most experienced Space Marine Captain can't solo entire Ork Waaaghs, CSM Warbands and daemonic incursions), but it's a much more enjoyable game.

He is not a normal Space Marine Captain though. He is like Kais from Fire Warrior - favoured by Khorne. I adore that that is the stock explanation for how the protagonists of those games can kill their way through entire armies.
Also, while I concur that most of Space Hulk: Deathwing is corridors, some of the smaller details and larger areas look gorgeous (especially the Black Templar cathedral)

In other news, I have finished the Chaplain for my Space Mammoths. I was certain that I still had one of the skull helmets from the Chaos Warriors kit, but could not find it anywhere, so instead I thought up the solution you can see. I had a spare Terminator Chaplain Crozius Arcanum for some reason (one of those bits you forgot you had from a decade ago), but I had to build up the base a bit as it is metal and the rest of the model is plastic so he kept falling over.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Blood Pact reference sheet

[Chan Island]

You know, I've had this lore thought recently and now it's really nagging me.

How the hell are the World Eaters still a threat in 40k? Like, OK, I get that some individual world eaters could be a problem. Kharn is a tough cookie, Angron is demon-primarch etc but the legion as a whole?

The lore repeatedly mentions that they aren't even a coherent entity, but even then those warbands ought to be really few and, small far between by now. This is largely due to the fact that they are bloodthirsty maniacs who will kill their own allies (including other world eaters) if their leader doesn't throw them at an enemy fast enough. Those leaders themselves being near mindless brutes who are seemingly charged with the task of causing as much bloodshed as possible, yet in story after story end up lessening it by using suicidal, super aggressive tactics.

Hell, even on the individual level the world eaters shouldn't be that much of a threat. They're the only legion we regularly see guardsmen kill in the books and lore, because it doesn't take a genius guardsman that long to realise that maybe the giant red guy with an axe should probably be shot at. Heck, I even remember in the siege of Vraks Imperial armour books at one point they charge a bunch of tanks, who unsurprisingly mulch the first wave with their heavy bolters and canons before they climb on and use their space marine abilities.

And then how do they get replaced? For the other traitors we get lots of (in the setting) very doable, plausible ways of replacing losses but not the world eaters. Some places suggest that they get replaced by other space marines falling to Khorne, but how many can that really be? And if the Crimson Slaughter are anything to go by, they have the exact same "charge at the heaviest fortified bunker from the front with an axe" syndrome. And if they are recruiting from cultists like the other traitors do, then ... just... who is living enough to even stand around them for 10 minutes saying 'look guys, I'm implanting a new aspirant with your geneseed!'

Maybe I just notice it more now because I've been looking at the Blood Pact stuff and kinda realising that they are actually causing more bloodshed per person and surviving longer in battle as mere normal humans than the goddamn 10000 year old space marines are.

Still, the question stands. How the hell is the Imperium still regularly being assaulted by the world eaters? There shouldn't be many left at this point.

[Impaled Nazarene]

You know, I've had this lore thought recently and now it's really nagging me.

How the hell are the World Eaters still a threat in 40k? Like, OK, I get that some individual world eaters could be a problem. Kharn is a tough cookie, Angron is demon-primarch etc but the legion as a whole?

The lore repeatedly mentions that they aren't even a coherent entity, but even then those warbands ought to be really few and, small far between by now. This is largely due to the fact that they are bloodthirsty maniacs who will kill their own allies (including other world eaters) if their leader doesn't throw them at an enemy fast enough. Those leaders themselves being near mindless brutes who are seemingly charged with the task of causing as much bloodshed as possible, yet in story after story end up lessening it by using suicidal, super aggressive tactics.

Hell, even on the individual level the world eaters shouldn't be that much of a threat. They're the only legion we regularly see guardsmen kill in the books and lore, because it doesn't take a genius guardsman that long to realise that maybe the giant red guy with an axe should probably be shot at. Heck, I even remember in the siege of Vraks Imperial armour books at one point they charge a bunch of tanks, who unsurprisingly mulch the first wave with their heavy bolters and canons before they climb on and use their space marine abilities.

And then how do they get replaced? For the other traitors we get lots of (in the setting) very doable, plausible ways of replacing losses but not the world eaters. Some places suggest that they get replaced by other space marines falling to Khorne, but how many can that really be? And if the Crimson Slaughter are anything to go by, they have the exact same "charge at the heaviest fortified bunker from the front with an axe" syndrome. And if they are recruiting from cultists like the other traitors do, then ... just... who is living enough to even stand around them for 10 minutes saying 'look guys, I'm implanting a new aspirant with your geneseed!'

Maybe I just notice it more now because I've been looking at the Blood Pact stuff and kinda realising that they are actually causing more bloodshed per person and surviving longer in battle as mere normal humans than the goddamn 10000 year old space marines are.

Still, the question stands. How the hell is the Imperium still regularly being assaulted by the world eaters? There shouldn't be many left at this point.

Bad writing because 40k writers need an uncomplicated traitor legion to use as villains and instead of making Khornate Marines a threat they make them idiots.

[Baltenstein]

Convincing new recruits to join the World Eaters can indeed be challenging sometimes.

[Crookfur]

You know, I've had this lore thought recently and now it's really nagging me.

How the hell are the World Eaters still a threat in 40k? Like, OK, I get that some individual world eaters could be a problem. Kharn is a tough cookie, Angron is demon-primarch etc but the legion as a whole?

The lore repeatedly mentions that they aren't even a coherent entity, but even then those warbands ought to be really few and, small far between by now. This is largely due to the fact that they are bloodthirsty maniacs who will kill their own allies (including other world eaters) if their leader doesn't throw them at an enemy fast enough. Those leaders themselves being near mindless brutes who are seemingly charged with the task of causing as much bloodshed as possible, yet in story after story end up lessening it by using suicidal, super aggressive tactics.

Hell, even on the individual level the world eaters shouldn't be that much of a threat. They're the only legion we regularly see guardsmen kill in the books and lore, because it doesn't take a genius guardsman that long to realise that maybe the giant red guy with an axe should probably be shot at. Heck, I even remember in the siege of Vraks Imperial armour books at one point they charge a bunch of tanks, who unsurprisingly mulch the first wave with their heavy bolters and canons before they climb on and use their space marine abilities.

And then how do they get replaced? For the other traitors we get lots of (in the setting) very doable, plausible ways of replacing losses but not the world eaters. Some places suggest that they get replaced by other space marines falling to Khorne, but how many can that really be? And if the Crimson Slaughter are anything to go by, they have the exact same "charge at the heaviest fortified bunker from the front with an axe" syndrome. And if they are recruiting from cultists like the other traitors do, then ... just... who is living enough to even stand around them for 10 minutes saying 'look guys, I'm implanting a new aspirant with your geneseed!'

Maybe I just notice it more now because I've been looking at the Blood Pact stuff and kinda realising that they are actually causing more bloodshed per person and surviving longer in battle as mere normal humans than the goddamn 10000 year old space marines are.

Still, the question stands. How the hell is the Imperium still regularly being assaulted by the world eaters? There shouldn't be many left at this point.

Bad writing because 40k writers need an uncomplicated traitor legion to use as villains and instead of making Khornate Marines a threat they make them idiots.

Pretty much.

In all honesty khorne should be the logical choice for most traitor marines given he is the god of martial pride, ability and honor. it is all too easy for the martially capable, if they loose their grounding faith, to slide into only fighting to display their own abilities and the joy of combat itself. From there its a very short path to simply enjoying the killing and then to picking up that chain axe.

We have discussed the dumbing down process that khorne has gone through over the years a couple of times particularly in regard to the utter neglect of his exceptionally insidious side.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Blood pact are imo the best example of Khornate forces. They are dedicated to the blood god obviously but maintained equivalent discipline and training to the imperial guard and were a very proficient army.

Thats the kind of Khornate stuff i prefer seeing.

[Jetan]

Indeed. All of the chaos gods have gotten flanderized over the years, but Khorne has been the worst hit by far.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Bad writing because 40k writers need an uncomplicated traitor legion to use as villains and instead of making Khornate Marines a threat they make them idiots.

Pretty much.

In all honesty khorne should be the logical choice for most traitor marines given he is the god of martial pride, ability and honor. it is all too easy for the martially capable, if they loose their grounding faith, to slide into only fighting to display their own abilities and the joy of combat itself. From there its a very short path to simply enjoying the killing and then to picking up that chain axe.

We have discussed the dumbing down process that khorne has gone through over the years a couple of times particularly in regard to the utter neglect of his exceptionally insidious side.

As much as I love Khorne enjoying both berserkers and honorable warriors I really wish there were more warriors that indulged in both (aside from Kharn) and warriors that "teased" Khorne. I really like it when a mortal impresses a Chaos God and gets gifts of powers bestowed upon them to try and persuade them to swear fealty. Show me a morally-grey character (by 40k standards that is) with the favor of Khorne who while ruthless and violent is also just and cunning.

[The Emerald Legion]

You know, I've had this lore thought recently and now it's really nagging me.

How the hell are the World Eaters still a threat in 40k? Like, OK, I get that some individual world eaters could be a problem. Kharn is a tough cookie, Angron is demon-primarch etc but the legion as a whole?

The lore repeatedly mentions that they aren't even a coherent entity, but even then those warbands ought to be really few and, small far between by now. This is largely due to the fact that they are bloodthirsty maniacs who will kill their own allies (including other world eaters) if their leader doesn't throw them at an enemy fast enough. Those leaders themselves being near mindless brutes who are seemingly charged with the task of causing as much bloodshed as possible, yet in story after story end up lessening it by using suicidal, super aggressive tactics.

Hell, even on the individual level the world eaters shouldn't be that much of a threat. They're the only legion we regularly see guardsmen kill in the books and lore, because it doesn't take a genius guardsman that long to realise that maybe the giant red guy with an axe should probably be shot at. Heck, I even remember in the siege of Vraks Imperial armour books at one point they charge a bunch of tanks, who unsurprisingly mulch the first wave with their heavy bolters and canons before they climb on and use their space marine abilities.

And then how do they get replaced? For the other traitors we get lots of (in the setting) very doable, plausible ways of replacing losses but not the world eaters. Some places suggest that they get replaced by other space marines falling to Khorne, but how many can that really be? And if the Crimson Slaughter are anything to go by, they have the exact same "charge at the heaviest fortified bunker from the front with an axe" syndrome. And if they are recruiting from cultists like the other traitors do, then ... just... who is living enough to even stand around them for 10 minutes saying 'look guys, I'm implanting a new aspirant with your geneseed!'

Maybe I just notice it more now because I've been looking at the Blood Pact stuff and kinda realising that they are actually causing more bloodshed per person and surviving longer in battle as mere normal humans than the goddamn 10000 year old space marines are.

Still, the question stands. How the hell is the Imperium still regularly being assaulted by the world eaters? There shouldn't be many left at this point.

The World Eaters, surprisingly, do have more than just Berserkers. They have a lot of Berserkers, but not EVERYONE is a maniac. Well.... to that degree anyway.

But yeah, it's mostly because they're easy to use bad guys.

[Baltenstein]

Pretty much.

In all honesty khorne should be the logical choice for most traitor marines given he is the god of martial pride, ability and honor. it is all too easy for the martially capable, if they loose their grounding faith, to slide into only fighting to display their own abilities and the joy of combat itself. From there its a very short path to simply enjoying the killing and then to picking up that chain axe.

We have discussed the dumbing down process that khorne has gone through over the years a couple of times particularly in regard to the utter neglect of his exceptionally insidious side.

As much as I love Khorne enjoying both berserkers and honorable warriors I really wish there were more warriors that indulged in both (aside from Kharn) and warriors that "teased" Khorne. I really like it when a mortal impresses a Chaos God and gets gifts of powers bestowed upon them to try and persuade them to swear fealty. Show me a morally-grey character (by 40k standards that is) with the favor of Khorne who while ruthless and violent is also just and cunning.

I am told that Kharn, of all people, is actually portrayed that way in his BL novels. Outside of combat, he is a jaded philosopher, refuses to harm non-combatants and has been systematically scheming against other Khorne champions to eventually unite the World Eaters legion under his banner again.

[Tethys 13]

I am told that Kharn, of all people, is actually portrayed that way in his BL novels. Outside of combat, he is a jaded philosopher, refuses to harm non-combatants and has been systematically scheming against other Khorne champions to eventually unite the World Eaters legion under his banner again.

Is it no longer canon that Khârn shattered both the World Eaters and Emperor's Children legions with nothing but a flamer? If so, good, because that was stupid.