MCU/Superhero Discussion Thread

[Cannot think of a name]

Now that I think about it, most MCU movies don't really show the American military that much love, even if they're never radical about it. The Iron Man trilogy is basically an ancap fantasy where the government's attempts to get and use their own armor are constantly framed as a bad idea. The Captain America trilogy kinda glorifies the American military during WW2, but with The Winter Soldier it takes on a very libertarian-ish "institutions are corrupt and therefor we should be idealistic rogues" vibe. Age of Ultron is probably the only of the three Avenger movies so far that unequivocally shows SHIELD and the American military as a whole in a good light (when SHIELD shows up to save the Sokovians).

With the Winter Soldier, it's worth noting that a) it's SHIELD, which is a sort-of US military expy but isn't actually the US military, and b) it turns out to be the evil machinations of secret Nazis anyway. I suppose you could argue that the fact that something that bears vague resemblance to something the US government does is done by Nazis is meant to be social commentary. But it could equally be taken as exonerating the government and military within the narrative. "You don't need to ask any hard questions of your government to solve these issues! Just punch some Nazis!"

And, clearly, the Pentagon thought it was the latter.

So, side note. The military is perfectly happy to lend out military equipment to movies provided they're showing the actual military. Since SHIELD isn't, when they needed a Harrier jet they were on their own and instead had to use the one from the movie True Lies.

[The first Galactic Republic]

I have mixed feelings on all that.

On one hand, it gave us an interesting movie.

On the other hand, all the big government themes (I distinctly remember Winter Soldier came out in the midst of that NSA scandal) are undermined by the fact that the new world order plot is really just coming from a bunch of ex-Nazis. It doesn’t really provide any social commentary on actual government agencies. It’s sort of a philosophical conflict between freedom and control... and at the same time it’s very much not.

It also kind of felt like a rip-off of the Templars from Assassin’s Creed, or even Spectre from James Bond.

[Lord Dominator]

I hope this doesn't mean that Kevin Feige is an Ayn Rand fan. My heart couldn't take it.

Thanos Shrugged

And half of all the smart rational people disappeared.

And thus nothing changed, because that describes no one.

[Liriena]

I have mixed feelings on all that.

On one hand, it gave us an interesting movie.

On the other hand, all the big government themes (I distinctly remember Winter Soldier came out in the midst of that NSA scandal) are undermined by the fact that the new world order plot is really just coming from a bunch of ex-Nazis. It doesn’t really provide any social commentary on actual government agencies. It’s sort of a philosophical conflict between freedom and control... and at the same time it’s very much not.

It also kind of felt like a rip-off of the Templars from Assassin’s Creed, or even Spectre from James Bond.

Yeah, that's my only major criticism of The Winter Soldier. The HYDRA twist isn't bad, but it immediately aborts what could have been a really powerful character arc for the main cast and might have turned the movie into the thematic polar opposite of The Dark Knight.

[Pasong Tirad]

Screening has started here in the Philippines. Some of my friends went to the midnight screenings, and several more are going extra early to the mall for the special 6 or 7 am screening. I myself am going tomorrow night. Warned my friends that I'm literally gonna go apeshit if they spoil Endgame. Nice to be earlier than the West for one thing.

[Liriena]

Screening has started here in the Philippines. Some of my friends went to the midnight screenings, and several more are going extra early to the mall for the special 6 or 7 am screening. I myself am going tomorrow night. Warned my friends that I'm literally gonna go apeshit if they spoil Endgame. Nice to be earlier than the West for one thing.

It's gonna be thursday night for me.

[Andsed]

Screening has started here in the Philippines. Some of my friends went to the midnight screenings, and several more are going extra early to the mall for the special 6 or 7 am screening. I myself am going tomorrow night. Warned my friends that I'm literally gonna go apeshit if they spoil Endgame. Nice to be earlier than the West for one thing.

It's gonna be thursday night for me.

Pretty sure I am going on Friday.

[Pasong Tirad]

Screening has started here in the Philippines. Some of my friends went to the midnight screenings, and several more are going extra early to the mall for the special 6 or 7 am screening. I myself am going tomorrow night. Warned my friends that I'm literally gonna go apeshit if they spoil Endgame. Nice to be earlier than the West for one thing.

It's gonna be thursday night for me.

So that's... 48 ish hours from now? I'll be watching it earlier.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Tomorrow night for me. Doing one of these double bill thingamabobs.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Tomorrow night for me. Doing one of these double bill thingamabobs.

Im just watching end game tomorrow night, not doing a two parter, have work the next day and i feel like i would hate it even if i didnt.

[Tarsonis]

With the Winter Soldier, it's worth noting that a) it's SHIELD, which is a sort-of US military expy but isn't actually the US military, and b) it turns out to be the evil machinations of secret Nazis anyway. I suppose you could argue that the fact that something that bears vague resemblance to something the US government does is done by Nazis is meant to be social commentary. But it could equally be taken as exonerating the government and military within the narrative. "You don't need to ask any hard questions of your government to solve these issues! Just punch some Nazis!"

And, clearly, the Pentagon thought it was the latter.

So, side note. The military is perfectly happy to lend out military equipment to movies provided they're showing the actual military. Since SHIELD isn't, when they needed a Harrier jet they were on their own and instead had to use the one from the movie True Lies.

I liked that documentary. So how did they repair the cockpit?

[Forsher]

Really? I think I've seen the "I'm not watching your fifteen minute long video, just summarize it and make your argument" conversation about once a month. It's not that bizarre at all.

I've never seen that before today. Seems entitled af.

Videos have crap information loading. Expecting people to watch a video you've seen and could summarise into a paragraph that takes a minute to read is what is entitled.

Black Panther and Captain Marvel seem like strange choices to point to for military propaganda anyways.

Black Panther has the protagonist, despite his status as monarch, go up against military hardliners in his country. Plus, Wakanda’s military is, ya know, fictional.

Captain Marvel doesn’t focus much on Carol Danver’s life in the Air Force, and what we do see isn’t flattering. The sexism she faced is made clear. That hardly syncs up with those Air Force commercials I see on TV and YouTube that show all men and women excercising together.

With Black Panther... everyone just glosses over how the US made Killmonger. The video does too, incidentally, but it's more talking about how it... and this is very unusual... portrays the CIA in a basically positive light: indeed, T'Challa is depicted as being in the wrong in Korea and the CIA operation as being more legitimate. The movie is also incredibly silent about Wakanda's legacy of embedding undercover operatives overseas... which I'm sure the CIA appreciates since that's part of what they're usually criticised for doing.

With Captain Marvel... the sexism stuff isn't portrayed as being systematic and to the extent it is a past reality now resolved, i.e. women can fly combat missions these days. The video's main point here is that you see sexism but it's at an individual level and the victim herself handles it.

The video as a whole focusses on these movies precisely because their otherwise progressive programming makes the military propaganda interpretation wholly un-obvious.

I hope this doesn't mean that Kevin Feige is an Ayn Rand fan. My heart couldn't take it.

I believe people have called The Incredibles Atlas Shrugged but good. Possibly they actually compared it to the Fountainhead, though.

At a certain point you just have to realise that if you're making superhero fiction you're being led down the path of individualistic power fantasy and have to work hard to avoid it just because superheroes are powerful individuals.

Tomorrow night for me. Doing one of these double bill thingamabobs.

I think I win... we're going tonight (four hours or so away)... crap seats though.

I'm just going to be too busy to watch it next week and I got Infinity War spoilt by people round the corner from me so the week after seems a terrible risk. Spoilers for a Part I film are an altogether less annoying prospect than spoilers for a Part II film.

[Starblaydia]

Thanos dies in the first five minutes, but has already destroyed the stones, so they go back in time and get the stones. Then, Scarlett Johansson dies, and Nebula from the past switches with the future one and brings Thanos back from the past through the time machine. Hulk uses the stones to bring back everyone, and Thanos fights them with his army. Thanos gets the stones, but Iron Man gets them back and kills Thanos with them, but dies in the process. Captain America goes back in time to return the stones, but stays in the past and now he's an old man.

Saved you a trip to the cinema.

[Andsed]

Thanos dies in the first five minutes, but has already destroyed the stones, so they go back in time and get the stones. Then, Scarlett Johansson dies, and Nebula from the past switches with the future one and brings Thanos back from the past through the time machine. Hulk uses the stones to bring back everyone, and Thanos fights them with his army. Thanos gets the stones, but Iron Man gets them back and kills Thanos with them, but dies in the process. Captain America goes back in time to return the stones, but stays in the past and now he's an old man.
Saved you a trip to the cinema

.

Dude if this true put it in spoilers like I did when quoting this please. Or just delete everything in the post because believe it or not people want to see this movie without being spoiled on it beforehand.

[Forsher]

Do not open the spoilers if you don't want to be spoilt.

Starts slowly. Interesting if you care about the characters... not so much if you do not. Very much a slow burn.

Second act is great. Lots of time travel... this is unambiguously a time travel movie... and there's an extra edge to proceedings because Past!Thanos manages to learn what they're up to. Lots of fan service.

Fat!Thor is funny and sad in equal measure. It's very well done. Howard Potts is a great character, too. Also, had we seen Jarvis in a movie before or is he an honest to goodness example of TV to Movie?

Third act is a big beat 'em up. Lots of stuff for Cap. Lots of great fan moments. Really don't think Carol needed the help to get the Gauntlet anywhere... on the other hand, maybe she was too obvious and gave the game away. Tony gets a great death but there's still a sneaky suspicion that characters disappear from the action because they have to not be around.

The end is a nice balance of sentimentality, humour and forward thinking. I know people rave about Yondu's farewell... this is what people say that cringefest is. Also, Thor literally says "Asgardians of the Galaxy".

Re: post-credit's scene (procedural spoiler warning... no plot detais):

There is no post credits scene.

I had a much longer post but the keyboard slipped, my fingers hit some keys and voila everything is gone. Tab still open but nobody's home.

Best moment?

Wanda choking the life out of Thanos. He gets out of it by launching missiles at the entire battlefield but even so.

[Valentine Z]

I will still go watch it because even after a text medium, I still want to know how it happened.

With that said... a little courtesy and ethics to NOT spoil a movie, especially for something that has been hyped up and many people have been waiting for. That is seriously uncool for everyone else.

Or at least put actual spoiler tags.

[Starblaydia]

Thanos dies in the first five minutes, but has already destroyed the stones, so they go back in time and get the stones. Then, Scarlett Johansson dies, and Nebula from the past switches with the future one and brings Thanos back from the past through the time machine. Hulk uses the stones to bring back everyone, and Thanos fights them with his army. Thanos gets the stones, but Iron Man gets them back and kills Thanos with them, but dies in the process. Captain America goes back in time to return the stones, but stays in the past and now he's an old man.

Saved you a trip to the cinema.

Do not post spoilers, or even fake spoilers, outside of spoiler tags, for Avengers: Endgame. This type of trolling will not be tolerated, especially not in this thread.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Ah, the benefits of only occasionally checking threads.

[Liriena]

Ah, the benefits of only occasionally checking threads.

Yeah, tell me about it.

[Cannot think of a name]

The MCU cast sings "We Didn't Start the Fire"

And with that, I peace out of the thread until 1:30 AM tomorrow when my showing gets out for safety sake.

[Lord Dominator]

Ah, the benefits of only occasionally checking threads.

Yeah, tell me about it.

Agreed

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Captain Marvel HISHE!

'kay, so since I'll be off to the cinema in a bit, Imma place my bets on who's dying. I think Thor dies, Tony retires to have a kid, and Cap becomes like this Elder adviser figure for the new generation of Avengers, maybe having sustained some disability that stops him doing proper Avenging? Rhodey might bite it too.

Everyone else is absolutely safe (of those who survived the snap).

[Forsher]

Captain Marvel HISHE!

'kay, so since I'll be off to the cinema in a bit, Imma place my bets on who's dying. I think Thor dies, Tony retires to have a kid, and Cap becomes like this Elder adviser figure for the new generation of Avengers, maybe having sustained some disability that stops him doing proper Avenging? Rhodey might bite it too.

Everyone else is absolutely safe (of those who survived the snap).

Comments on your predictions. Obviously actual spoilers.

Thor (a) gets fat, (b) abdicates and (c) runs off with the Guardians. It's a bit stupid because you go and say something like, "Well, Thor's arc's about becoming who he is rather than who he's meant to be" but then you stop and look at the implication of the end joke. Regardless of whether or not Thor is actually challenging Star Lord for leadership subtly he still says Asgardians of the Galaxy... Thor is used to being the focus and still wants to be the focus. You know... basically what he just abdicated.

Ragnarok gives Thor an incredible journey... and then some American writers and directors get hold of him, completely shaft that journey in Infinity War and he just walks away completely at the end of Endgame? I mean, it's a bit annoying because a lot of people were looking at the end of Ragnarok and thinking, "Ah, I smell Siege" but it's pretty obvious the Russos wanted to tell a different Thor story to the ones told in his solo adventures. It's also thematically odd since superheroes tend to lean heavily into "responsibility" as a counterweight to the libertarian/objectivist/individual power fantasy stuff. Obviously Spider-man is most famous for this but it's a general idea. It was, of course, the main interpretation of worthiness in Thor's first movie as well.

Anyway, it's a new story well told and, also, Fat!Thor is hilarious. But as with Infinity War it does leave a bit of a sour taste and feeling of guilt... because it's told well enough that you like it even though it's a betrayal of what came before. It particularly annoys me because Ragnarok is quite a bit better than Endgame and Endgame is better than Infinity War.

Tony does retire and have a kid. But then he comes out of retirement and dies. Peter Parker then hogs the deathbed scene even though Pepper is right there. It's a bit off. Great scene between Happy and Morgan though. Actually, maybe I like that scene more than the thing with Wanda and Thanos.

Oh, yeah, turns out they adapated Hydra!Cap. So Cap's dead too.

Kidding. As you know.

Cap travels back in time to restore the Stones to their proper place in the timeline (there's some questions to be asked about how exactly this works) but stays behind to live with Peggy. He then travels back to the future as an old man and gives the Shield (repaired at some point) to Sam... Bucky's also there to nod Sam into taking it (I think it might have been better if Sam tried to offer the Shield to Bucky but Bucky refuses it but yeah).

Natasha throws herself off the Soul Stone cliff to save Clint. The "thing you loved" requirement from Infinity War doesn't seem present... just a soul for a soul. A little odd, especially since that was easily the most screwed up and intellectually suspect part of Infinity War too. So she's dead. And, yes, Bruce tried to use the Stones to save her but it didn't work.

Rhodey's basically fine aside from comparing himself to Nebula. Also his best friend and manufacturer of his mechanical legs died so there's that. Otherwise fine.

Bruce's Hulk arm seems permanently munted now as a result of the Stones so... maybe no more Hulk smash. Also, given Banner!Hulk happened entirely offscreen it's hard to say that they gave Hulk and Banner an actual story. Which, again, is a complete F@#! You to Ragnarok and Joss Whedon on the part of IW and Endgame.

Clint also went Frank Castle. Maybe Bruce used the Stones to undo that though since no-one mentions it again even though in the sad part at the start of the film it was a Big Deal.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Good. I think. But need time to digest and also it is quarter past three.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

BTW, no end credits scene