Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[New haven america]

It's funny how they say I'm incapable of providing constructive or valid criticism when I've honestly almost never been able to get people who claim to like the shows to explain what they actually like about the shows other than it has the ST name attached and having STD/STP is better than nothing. What do you like about the characters? Motives? Settings? Plot structure? Themes? Effects and sound? Etc...

I'm open to hearing about it. Seriously. It'd be nice to hear an actual explanation other than "It's ST so just shut up and like it!". I'll start, I liked Pike in STD s2 because he was a strong, capable, and humble leader who generally made the show much nicer all around whenever he was on screen with his pleasant yet simultaneously commanding demeanor.

1. I literally posted around three or four paragraph of why I like Discovery and Picard. You may disagree but that does not invalidate others opinions.

2. But as others have said, I have a distinct feeling that nothing will satisfy you except everyone agreeing with you so I will stop trying

1. No, you did not, you presented subjective ideas as if they were fact and no where in your paragraph long posts did I see "I like X because of Y."
2. Having an actually good ST show not made by idiots like Kurtzman, Goldsman, or Chabon might work. I liked ST Beyond for example, and that was silly and fun and I liked it because you could tell the people working on it actually liked ST and understood what ST was about at its core.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

1. I literally posted around three or four paragraph of why I like Discovery and Picard. You may disagree but that does not invalidate others opinions.

2. But as others have said, I have a distinct feeling that nothing will satisfy you except everyone agreeing with you so I will stop trying

1. No, you did not, you presented subjective ideas as if they were fact and no where in your paragraph long posts did I see "I like X because of Y."
2. Having an actually good ST show not made by idiots like Kurtzman, Goldsman, or Chabon might work. I liked ST Beyond for example, and that was silly and fun and I liked it because you could tell the people working on it actually liked ST and understood what ST was about at its core.

Yeah. The reason Beyond worked was because, mostly, because it's plot actually was Trek. A self-contained adventure that had a clear beginning, climax, and resolution. And, you know, optimism. And, also, good themes. Oh, and metaphors that made sense. Guess what has none of those?

Discovery just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger that, by the time the show's finale comes around, the weight of the show's gonna crush the resolution. Not to mention Kurtzman's already ripped off, like, fifty other franchises at this point with Discovery alone (including other Star Trek).

And, another thing, the title is misleading. Yeah, sure, the hero ship is named Discovery, but titling your show "Star Trek Discovery" sort of implies that your gonna do some, oh, I dunno, discovery! And I don't mean discovering trite new plot developments like through all of season 2, but some actual, space discovery.

Beyond was made with love and respect, Discovery was made with dollar signs in the eyes. It's just so soulless. Just "hey look at this cool space lazer battle, uh, and look at our cool new tech that totally wasn't plagiarized from an Egyptian guy's work, oh, uh, and "faith! That's-that's a theme!! Faith!!"

It's unforgivable, really.

[Jedi Council]

1. No, you did not, you presented subjective ideas as if they were fact and no where in your paragraph long posts did I see "I like X because of Y."
2. Having an actually good ST show not made by idiots like Kurtzman, Goldsman, or Chabon might work. I liked ST Beyond for example, and that was silly and fun and I liked it because you could tell the people working on it actually liked ST and understood what ST was about at its core.

Yeah. The reason Beyond worked was because, mostly, because it's plot actually was Trek. A self-contained adventure that had a clear beginning, climax, and resolution. And, you know, optimism. And, also, good themes. Oh, and metaphors that made sense. Guess what has none of those?

Discovery just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger that, by the time the show's finale comes around, the weight of the show's gonna crush the resolution. Not to mention Kurtzman's already ripped off, like, fifty other franchises at this point with Discovery alone (including other Star Trek).

And, another thing, the title is misleading. Yeah, sure, the hero ship is named Discovery, but titling your show "Star Trek Discovery" sort of implies that your gonna do some, oh, I dunno, discovery! And I don't mean discovering trite new plot developments like through all of season 2, but some actual, space discovery.

Beyond was made with love and respect, Discovery was made with dollar signs in the eyes. It's just so soulless. Just "hey look at this cool space lazer battle, uh, and look at our cool new tech that totally wasn't plagiarized from an Egyptian guy's work, oh, uh, and "faith! That's-that's a theme!! Faith!!"

It's unforgivable, really.

1. I literally posted around three or four paragraph of why I like Discovery and Picard. You may disagree but that does not invalidate others opinions.

2. But as others have said, I have a distinct feeling that nothing will satisfy you except everyone agreeing with you so I will stop trying

1. No, you did not, you presented subjective ideas as if they were fact and no where in your paragraph long posts did I see "I like X because of Y."
2. Having an actually good ST show not made by idiots like Kurtzman, Goldsman, or Chabon might work. I liked ST Beyond for example, and that was silly and fun and I liked it because you could tell the people working on it actually liked ST and understood what ST was about at its core.

I'm not saying you guys are bot entitled yo your opinions, but I would think they are I the minority.

Repeatedly bashing a show and looking down on those that watch it is incredibly aggravating.

[New haven america]

Yeah. The reason Beyond worked was because, mostly, because it's plot actually was Trek. A self-contained adventure that had a clear beginning, climax, and resolution. And, you know, optimism. And, also, good themes. Oh, and metaphors that made sense. Guess what has none of those?

Discovery just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger that, by the time the show's finale comes around, the weight of the show's gonna crush the resolution. Not to mention Kurtzman's already ripped off, like, fifty other franchises at this point with Discovery alone (including other Star Trek).

And, another thing, the title is misleading. Yeah, sure, the hero ship is named Discovery, but titling your show "Star Trek Discovery" sort of implies that your gonna do some, oh, I dunno, discovery! And I don't mean discovering trite new plot developments like through all of season 2, but some actual, space discovery.

Beyond was made with love and respect, Discovery was made with dollar signs in the eyes. It's just so soulless. Just "hey look at this cool space lazer battle, uh, and look at our cool new tech that totally wasn't plagiarized from an Egyptian guy's work, oh, uh, and "faith! That's-that's a theme!! Faith!!"

It's unforgivable, really.

1. No, you did not, you presented subjective ideas as if they were fact and no where in your paragraph long posts did I see "I like X because of Y."
2. Having an actually good ST show not made by idiots like Kurtzman, Goldsman, or Chabon might work. I liked ST Beyond for example, and that was silly and fun and I liked it because you could tell the people working on it actually liked ST and understood what ST was about at its core.

I'm not saying you guys are bot entitled yo your opinions, 1. but I would think they are I the minority.

2. Repeatedly bashing a show and 3. looking down on those that watch it is incredibly aggravating.

1. If that was the case than Star Trek as a franchise is well and truly dead. I heard an interesting quote not too long ago "The Orville is Star Trek, Star Trek is trying and failing to be Star Wars, and Star Wars has no fucking idea what it's doing."
2. Because the shows deserve to be bashed.
3. Projection much? You've so far been the only one here to look down on people who don't like what you do.

And you still have yet to actually tell me what you like about STD or STP. If the shows are as good as you say they are then this shouldn't be that hard to do.

[Jedi Council]

I'm not saying you guys are bot entitled yo your opinions, 1. but I would think they are I the minority.

2. Repeatedly bashing a show and 3. looking down on those that watch it is incredibly aggravating.

1. If that was the case than Star Trek as a franchise is well and truly dead. I heard an interesting quote not too long ago "The Orville is Star Trek, Star Trek is trying and failing to be Star Wars, and Star Wars has no fucking idea what it's doing."
2. Because the shows deserve to be bashed.
3. Projection much? You've so far been the only one here to look down on people who don't like what you do.

And you still have yet to actually tell me what you like about STD or STP. If the shows are as good as you say they are then this shouldn't be that hard to do.

How I looked down on you, or any critics of the show?

I mean you have repeatedly called the show trash, said it's not real Trek, and argued that it deserves total ridicule. You appear to think anyone who likes the show is either stupid or has no taste.

As I said in a previous post a few pages ago, perhaps if you frames your arguments in a more constructive manner, such as "I dislike this show, I do not think it matches up with the other parts of the franchise" rather than beating the show, its cast, crew and fans at every turn, ad nauseam, you might have a better reception among those who either dont mind, or like the show.

All I have done is say that you should be a bit more tolerant of other peoples tastes and less devoted to the poisonous uber-fandom, my way or the high way, culture that has developed in fantasy and sci-fi circles the past few years. No one is forcing you to watch the show, if you dont like it, dont watch it. And dont repeatedly bash it anytime someone says something positive about it.

So yeah, if you consider my advice me looking down on you then I guess I am guilty as charged.

In any case, if you want reasons why I like the shows, I will provide them. Despite what you just said in the quoted post, I have never argued that Discovery or Picard are "so good." If you look back at my posts, I actually said I consider Discovery to be mediocre, though I am more partial to Picard.

Anyways, no doubt you will say the reasons I like these shows are wrong, to which I will reply you dont get to tell me what I enjoy, and then we will devolve into a cycle of just disagreeing over things that have no answer because they are subjective. But I digress.

I enjoyed Discover for a handful of reasons. The new focus was interesting, it was less "bridge centric" and many of the characters have new and interesting backgrounds. I find Saru go be very enjoyable, as well as Tillly. I enjoyed the lack of a distinct "captain" for much of the show, or rather the apparent rotation of the captaincy from Lorca, to Pike, to Saru. The acting is relatively well done, and the effects, while surely more vibrant than previous installments, have as of yet not taken over the show. Creature design and the art style is excellent, the Ba'ul in particular were terrifyingly grotesque. Anson Mount is an excellent Pike, and I look forward to seeing him in Strange New Worlds. Journeying to the Mirror Universe and making Lorca who he was did surprise me, and Michelle Yeoh, while a middling Starfleet Captain, has proven to be a highly interesting Terran Emperor.

Discovery has some weak points. I despise the concept of a Spore Drive; as I stated earlier, I grew up with Voyager and so I am very attached to that crew and their story, an arc which the Spore Drive makes pretty trivial unless it is wrapped up well. Similarly, I dislike the design of the Discovery itself, while not totally impossible, it is just not my cup of tea. I was not a huge fan of the work they did on the Klingons; whilst the makeup was excellent, the typical issues of the Ridged vs Non-ridged Klingons kept creeping into the back of my mind. Some of the writing and storytelling was a bit weak, though it has been better in the second season. I am not a huge fan of the Starfleet Uniforms, especially how difficult it is to tell what rank and division each character is a part of.

As for Picard, I will spoiler it just in case there are those who have not seen it yet.

I enjoyed the concept and the mission. It makes sense that Picard would have wanted to save Romulus, and his efforts explain why Spock had to use the artificial Black Hole device instead. It makes sense for Picard, who clearly cared about Data, to also care deeply about synthetic life. After all, in "The Measure of a Man," Picars furiously defends Data's sentience, a concept that surely extends to anything nearing, or surpassing his level of development. I enjoyed a focus on traditional races, like the Romulans, and the Borg. Small things like having Hugh lead a Borg Reclamation project, or Riker and Troi living an idyllic retirement just feels right. The design here is also excellent, the Romulan Warbirds were fanstic, and the Orchids used by the Synthetics to stop the Zhat Vash and La Sirenna were straight out of TNG or TOS. I found most of the characters to be likeable (Jurati was a bit annoying in the middle of the season but was fine at the beginning/end, Raffi was mostly good with dashes of annoyance). Elnor is hilarious, Seven of Nine is not where I assumed she would be, but I have enjoyed the idea of her being somewhat jaded as she has become more human. After all, most people become more jaded as time goes on and the hurts pile up. I enjoyed the "Admonition" and Zhat Vash concepts, it makes sense for the Tal Shiar to be riddled with secret societies, and the warning about a dangerous enemy left by an ancient race feels very Trek to me, much like the TNG episode "The Chase." Finally, I enjoyed seeing where the characters I loved so much ended up. It's just cool to see Jean Luc Picard and Seven of Nine on the screen again with original stories. I also liked the idea of bad things happening to the Federation. Apart from the Borg threat in TNG, and to a greater and more detailed degree, the Dominion War, we have not seen the Federation actually take that much damage. Having UP, a place all Trek fans are aware of, be destroyed, and Mars still be burning, that just hits home. Finally, the scene with Data and Picard was heart breaking. While I was a bit perplexed as to why Data's conciousness never tried to return to a new body, or tried to contact anyone outside of Soong and Maddox's lab, that may be me just missing, or misunderstanding something. In any case, their farewell was very emotional.

As for the flaws in Picard, at times I found it either too slow, or, per the conclusion, too fast. I wish there had been more time spent with Soji actually at the Synths lab, her whiplash morality was a little convenient. There was some clunky character introductions, like Commodore Oh, and a few strange portrayals I was not a fan of (Admiral Clancy, Icheb). My biggest complaint was bringing Picard back from the dead. I get you cant have a show called Picard without Picard, and his illness was a little weak, but he should have either been killed off and only done this one season, or they should have made him not die at all.

So there you go. As I said I am sure this will not satisfy you and you may disagree with a lot, but that's where I am happy to say that taste and enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder and is only in very limited circumstances objective.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

I gotta jump in here on the side of NHA (though I probably wouldn't be as emphatic with my points).

W/r/t Picard:

I didn't mind it too much at first but the more I think about it the more I dislike it. I would believe a conspiracy within Starfleet (remember the TUC conspiracy - Starfleet has always had tension between the peaceful exploration imperative and the military defense imperative). Especially with Starfleet Security getting totally fucked penetrated by the Talk Shiar, it's to be expected that there are elements stonewalling pretty much everything Picard is trying to do.

I do not believe that suddenly the entire Federation is now racist against Romulans (distrustful? Sure. But not to the point of treating them the way Americans treat Syrian refugees), and non-Borg synthetic beings.

Then somehow on top of that you have a magic resolution out of nowhere in which all of a goddamn sudden Starfleet has realized the error of its ways (seriously, it was what? Like a week in storytelling time?
Two weeks?) and decided that a reserve captain, retired in all but the last technicality, should command the gigantic task force they send along with their dizzying turnaround - for sentimental reasons (i.e. clumsy fanservice). Star Trek is often ready with clumsy fanservice, but this is the most ham-handed application of it I've ever seen (yes, that includes Into Darkness, which at least switched a few things around to pretend it had a "twist").

And poor what's-her-face, who was in Aaron Sorkin's terrible cable news show. She's now been thoroughly typecast for "intelligent woman who has to be victimized and then do something blisteringly self-destructive because we can't actually write and the plot needs Something."

And don't get me started on Rafi.

I like how Troi is a three-dimensional character though. That was nice. Oh wait, dead child. Nevermind.

W/r/t Discovery: I watched the first three or four episodes and was actually kind of excited. I don't mind the changes to Klingon makeup, because it seemed they got the "soul" of the Empire right - you see the proud warrior culture as well as the feudalism that Ezri Dax decries much later as the reason it deserves to be in the dustbin of history. The only quibble is a minor retcon - if we're in the Prime timeline, the Klingons didn't have cloaking tech until they allied with the Romulans during Kirk's five year mission later on. But eh, I don't begrudge something that small.

And I liked the characterization - our protagonist was (somewhat) unfairly court martialed, how is she going to deal with reintegration into a Starfleet crew that includes one or two of her ex-shipmates who believe her guilty of all charges, not just the assault/insubordination? Damn, there is potential here!

But dammit. A giant Space Amoeba was OK for a single episode in 1967. I can't take an Infinite Improbability Drive steered by a giant Space Tardigrade that eats fucking shrooms to feed its navigational sense. Sorry, I'm out.

But even more than that: half the crew are actually assholes, and not in the sense of "here are some rogues and/or hardasses like Ro Laren or Edward Jellico" - we're literally gonna make this a 21st Century style hostile work environment. A small dose of that worked in DS9, where we're not actually in the Federation and our heroes have to adapt a bit in order to help their neighbors see that, in fact, they really do love root beer. Discovery is using it to be edgy, though. Yuck. Even Enterprise (the show) wasn't like that.

I heard an interesting quote not too long ago "The Orville is Star Trek, Star Trek is trying and failing to be Star Wars, and Star Wars has no fucking idea what it's doing."

Damn, that's spot on, at least the first two. I haven't seen TRoS yet, so can't speak to Star Wars. But yeah. The Orville isn't, you know, great; but it's basically TNG without the painfully dated late 80's/early 90's social themes, and it's fun.

I want to be clear that I don't begrudge people who like Discovery or Picard; I just am not one of you.

[Tarsonis]

speaking of orville, season 3 delayed until 2021

[The Huskar Social Union]

Couldnt get into the Orville. Watched the first few episodes then lost interest.

[New haven america]

Couldnt get into the Orville. Watched the first few episodes then lost interest.

First few episodes are totally skippable.

It starts getting really good when it becomes more of a character piece focusing on the crew's issues or dealing with interesting social issues on their planet of the week.

[Tarsonis]

Couldnt get into the Orville. Watched the first few episodes then lost interest.

First few episodes are totally skippable.

It starts getting really good when it becomes more of a character piece focusing on the crew's issues or dealing with interesting social issues on their planet of the week.

Yeah, this is true. Just like all the other trek shows, the first few episodes are kinds cringy. The one with Liam Neeson i think is the first really good episode and it picks up from there.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

speaking of orville, season 3 delayed until 2021

Wow. I mean, it's best that they postpone it to keep everyone safe, but 2021? This pandemic really is no joke.

[New haven america]

1. If that was the case than Star Trek as a franchise is well and truly dead. I heard an interesting quote not too long ago "The Orville is Star Trek, Star Trek is trying and failing to be Star Wars, and Star Wars has no fucking idea what it's doing."
2. Because the shows deserve to be bashed.
3. Projection much? You've so far been the only one here to look down on people who don't like what you do.

And you still have yet to actually tell me what you like about STD or STP. If the shows are as good as you say they are then this shouldn't be that hard to do.

1. How I looked down on you, or any critics of the show?

2. I mean you have repeatedly called the show trash, said it's not real Trek, and argued that it deserves total ridicule. 3. You appear to think anyone who likes the show is either stupid or has no taste.

4. As I said in a previous post a few pages ago, perhaps if you frames your arguments in a more constructive manner, such as "I dislike this show, I do not think it matches up with the other parts of the franchise" rather than beating the show, its cast, crew and fans at every turn, ad nauseam, you might have a better reception among those who either dont mind, or like the show.

All I have done is say that you should be a bit more tolerant of other peoples tastes and less devoted to the poisonous uber-fandom, my way or the high way, culture that has developed in fantasy and sci-fi circles the past few years. No one is forcing you to watch the show, 5. if you dont like it, dont watch it. And dont repeatedly bash it anytime someone says something positive about it.

So yeah, if you consider my advice me looking down on you then I guess I am guilty as charged.

In any case, if you want reasons why I like the shows, I will provide them. Despite what you just said in the quoted post, I have never argued that Discovery or Picard are "so good." If you look back at my posts, I actually said I consider Discovery to be mediocre, though I am more partial to Picard.

Anyways, no doubt you will say the reasons I like these shows are wrong, to which I will reply you dont get to tell me what I enjoy, and then we will devolve into a cycle of just disagreeing over things that have no answer because they are subjective. But I digress.

6. I enjoyed Discover for a handful of reasons. The new focus was interesting, it was less "bridge centric" and many of the characters have new and interesting backgrounds. I find Saru go be very enjoyable, as well as Tillly. I enjoyed the lack of a distinct "captain" for much of the show, or rather the apparent rotation of the captaincy from Lorca, to Pike, to Saru. The acting is relatively well done, and the effects, while surely more vibrant than previous installments, have as of yet not taken over the show. Creature design and the art style is excellent, the Ba'ul in particular were terrifyingly grotesque. Anson Mount is an excellent Pike, and I look forward to seeing him in Strange New Worlds. Journeying to the Mirror Universe and making Lorca who he was did surprise me, and Michelle Yeoh, while a middling Starfleet Captain, has proven to be a highly interesting Terran Emperor.

Discovery has some weak points. I despise the concept of a Spore Drive; as I stated earlier, I grew up with Voyager and so I am very attached to that crew and their story, an arc which the Spore Drive makes pretty trivial unless it is wrapped up well. Similarly, I dislike the design of the Discovery itself, while not totally impossible, it is just not my cup of tea. I was not a huge fan of the work they did on the Klingons; whilst the makeup was excellent, the typical issues of the Ridged vs Non-ridged Klingons kept creeping into the back of my mind. Some of the writing and storytelling was a bit weak, though it has been better in the second season. I am not a huge fan of the Starfleet Uniforms, especially how difficult it is to tell what rank and division each character is a part of.

As for Picard, I will spoiler it just in case there are those who have not seen it yet.

I enjoyed the concept and the mission. It makes sense that Picard would have wanted to save Romulus, and his efforts explain why Spock had to use the artificial Black Hole device instead. It makes sense for Picard, who clearly cared about Data, to also care deeply about synthetic life. After all, in "The Measure of a Man," Picars furiously defends Data's sentience, a concept that surely extends to anything nearing, or surpassing his level of development. I enjoyed a focus on traditional races, like the Romulans, and the Borg. Small things like having Hugh lead a Borg Reclamation project, or Riker and Troi living an idyllic retirement just feels right. The design here is also excellent, the Romulan Warbirds were fanstic, and the Orchids used by the Synthetics to stop the Zhat Vash and La Sirenna were straight out of TNG or TOS. I found most of the characters to be likeable (Jurati was a bit annoying in the middle of the season but was fine at the beginning/end, Raffi was mostly good with dashes of annoyance). Elnor is hilarious, Seven of Nine is not where I assumed she would be, but I have enjoyed the idea of her being somewhat jaded as she has become more human. After all, most people become more jaded as time goes on and the hurts pile up. I enjoyed the "Admonition" and Zhat Vash concepts, it makes sense for the Tal Shiar to be riddled with secret societies, and the warning about a dangerous enemy left by an ancient race feels very Trek to me, much like the TNG episode "The Chase." Finally, I enjoyed seeing where the characters I loved so much ended up. It's just cool to see Jean Luc Picard and Seven of Nine on the screen again with original stories. I also liked the idea of bad things happening to the Federation. Apart from the Borg threat in TNG, and to a greater and more detailed degree, the Dominion War, we have not seen the Federation actually take that much damage. Having UP, a place all Trek fans are aware of, be destroyed, and Mars still be burning, that just hits home. Finally, the scene with Data and Picard was heart breaking. While I was a bit perplexed as to why Data's conciousness never tried to return to a new body, or tried to contact anyone outside of Soong and Maddox's lab, that may be me just missing, or misunderstanding something. In any case, their farewell was very emotional.

As for the flaws in Picard, at times I found it either too slow, or, per the conclusion, too fast. I wish there had been more time spent with Soji actually at the Synths lab, her whiplash morality was a little convenient. There was some clunky character introductions, like Commodore Oh, and a few strange portrayals I was not a fan of (Admiral Clancy, Icheb). My biggest complaint was bringing Picard back from the dead. I get you cant have a show called Picard without Picard, and his illness was a little weak, but he should have either been killed off and only done this one season, or they should have made him not die at all.

So there you go. As I said I am sure this will not satisfy you and you may disagree with a lot, but that's where I am happy to say that taste and enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder and is only in very limited circumstances objective.

1. Well, so far you've been the only one here to personally attack people who disagree with your opinion. So if that's not looking down on someone IDK what is.
2. Yep!
3. Again, you're the only one here saying anything remotely like that.
4. I'm simply unbiasedly pointing out the shows flaws. If you consider simply listing flaws as offensive then I suggest you drop this right now because you're not going to have a good time.
5. lol, one of the oldest non-arguments in the book. Pray tell, how I'm I supposed to know if I like something or not without watching it?
6. Good, now, take these points you consider to be good and construct an argument around these points, and detail why they're good through ethos or logos and how the good points outweigh the many, many, many, many... Bad points.

It's a show that' superficially deep and meaningful (Constantly droning on about hope and faith and blah), while under the surface it makes absolutely no logical sense. How did the Romulans not know their star was going Nova even though stars give off warning signs thousands of years in advance while the Romulans are on equal footing to The Federation tech-wise? How did the Federation go from an accepting and generally anti-discriminatory society to wanting to genocide all the Romulans over the course of only 20 years (If you didn't know, the fact that Romulans even asked for help is a massive sign of trust considering how paranoid they are)? Why does the Federation suddenly have a criminal underground big enough that they're able to run raids of intra-Federation outposts and colonies (Not even The Orion Syndicate had the manpower or gall to try something so idiotic)? Furthermore, why was said criminal organization seemingly totally taken down by 1 blonde chick with some phasers? Why does poverty exist in a post-scarcity society? Why does the series put such a high focus on Picard and Data when they barely interacted in the series? Where's Geordie (You know, Data's actual best friend)? Why did 7's search for humanity lead her to becoming a whisky chugging, phaser blasting, lesbian psychopath?

[Tarsonis]

1. How I looked down on you, or any critics of the show?

2. I mean you have repeatedly called the show trash, said it's not real Trek, and argued that it deserves total ridicule. 3. You appear to think anyone who likes the show is either stupid or has no taste.

4. As I said in a previous post a few pages ago, perhaps if you frames your arguments in a more constructive manner, such as "I dislike this show, I do not think it matches up with the other parts of the franchise" rather than beating the show, its cast, crew and fans at every turn, ad nauseam, you might have a better reception among those who either dont mind, or like the show.

All I have done is say that you should be a bit more tolerant of other peoples tastes and less devoted to the poisonous uber-fandom, my way or the high way, culture that has developed in fantasy and sci-fi circles the past few years. No one is forcing you to watch the show, 5. if you dont like it, dont watch it. And dont repeatedly bash it anytime someone says something positive about it.

So yeah, if you consider my advice me looking down on you then I guess I am guilty as charged.

In any case, if you want reasons why I like the shows, I will provide them. Despite what you just said in the quoted post, I have never argued that Discovery or Picard are "so good." If you look back at my posts, I actually said I consider Discovery to be mediocre, though I am more partial to Picard.

Anyways, no doubt you will say the reasons I like these shows are wrong, to which I will reply you dont get to tell me what I enjoy, and then we will devolve into a cycle of just disagreeing over things that have no answer because they are subjective. But I digress.

6. I enjoyed Discover for a handful of reasons. The new focus was interesting, it was less "bridge centric" and many of the characters have new and interesting backgrounds. I find Saru go be very enjoyable, as well as Tillly. I enjoyed the lack of a distinct "captain" for much of the show, or rather the apparent rotation of the captaincy from Lorca, to Pike, to Saru. The acting is relatively well done, and the effects, while surely more vibrant than previous installments, have as of yet not taken over the show. Creature design and the art style is excellent, the Ba'ul in particular were terrifyingly grotesque. Anson Mount is an excellent Pike, and I look forward to seeing him in Strange New Worlds. Journeying to the Mirror Universe and making Lorca who he was did surprise me, and Michelle Yeoh, while a middling Starfleet Captain, has proven to be a highly interesting Terran Emperor.

Discovery has some weak points. I despise the concept of a Spore Drive; as I stated earlier, I grew up with Voyager and so I am very attached to that crew and their story, an arc which the Spore Drive makes pretty trivial unless it is wrapped up well. Similarly, I dislike the design of the Discovery itself, while not totally impossible, it is just not my cup of tea. I was not a huge fan of the work they did on the Klingons; whilst the makeup was excellent, the typical issues of the Ridged vs Non-ridged Klingons kept creeping into the back of my mind. Some of the writing and storytelling was a bit weak, though it has been better in the second season. I am not a huge fan of the Starfleet Uniforms, especially how difficult it is to tell what rank and division each character is a part of.

As for Picard, I will spoiler it just in case there are those who have not seen it yet.

I enjoyed the concept and the mission. It makes sense that Picard would have wanted to save Romulus, and his efforts explain why Spock had to use the artificial Black Hole device instead. It makes sense for Picard, who clearly cared about Data, to also care deeply about synthetic life. After all, in "The Measure of a Man," Picars furiously defends Data's sentience, a concept that surely extends to anything nearing, or surpassing his level of development. I enjoyed a focus on traditional races, like the Romulans, and the Borg. Small things like having Hugh lead a Borg Reclamation project, or Riker and Troi living an idyllic retirement just feels right. The design here is also excellent, the Romulan Warbirds were fanstic, and the Orchids used by the Synthetics to stop the Zhat Vash and La Sirenna were straight out of TNG or TOS. I found most of the characters to be likeable (Jurati was a bit annoying in the middle of the season but was fine at the beginning/end, Raffi was mostly good with dashes of annoyance). Elnor is hilarious, Seven of Nine is not where I assumed she would be, but I have enjoyed the idea of her being somewhat jaded as she has become more human. After all, most people become more jaded as time goes on and the hurts pile up. I enjoyed the "Admonition" and Zhat Vash concepts, it makes sense for the Tal Shiar to be riddled with secret societies, and the warning about a dangerous enemy left by an ancient race feels very Trek to me, much like the TNG episode "The Chase." Finally, I enjoyed seeing where the characters I loved so much ended up. It's just cool to see Jean Luc Picard and Seven of Nine on the screen again with original stories. I also liked the idea of bad things happening to the Federation. Apart from the Borg threat in TNG, and to a greater and more detailed degree, the Dominion War, we have not seen the Federation actually take that much damage. Having UP, a place all Trek fans are aware of, be destroyed, and Mars still be burning, that just hits home. Finally, the scene with Data and Picard was heart breaking. While I was a bit perplexed as to why Data's conciousness never tried to return to a new body, or tried to contact anyone outside of Soong and Maddox's lab, that may be me just missing, or misunderstanding something. In any case, their farewell was very emotional.

As for the flaws in Picard, at times I found it either too slow, or, per the conclusion, too fast. I wish there had been more time spent with Soji actually at the Synths lab, her whiplash morality was a little convenient. There was some clunky character introductions, like Commodore Oh, and a few strange portrayals I was not a fan of (Admiral Clancy, Icheb). My biggest complaint was bringing Picard back from the dead. I get you cant have a show called Picard without Picard, and his illness was a little weak, but he should have either been killed off and only done this one season, or they should have made him not die at all.

So there you go. As I said I am sure this will not satisfy you and you may disagree with a lot, but that's where I am happy to say that taste and enjoyment is in the eye of the beholder and is only in very limited circumstances objective.

1. Well, so far you've been the only one here to personally attack people who disagree with your opinion. So if that's not looking down on someone IDK what is.
2. Yep!
3. Again, you're the only one here saying anything remotely like that.
4. I'm simply unbiasedly pointing out the shows flaws. If you consider simply listing flaws as offensive then I suggest you drop this right now because you're not going to have a good time.
5. lol, one of the oldest non-arguments in the book. Pray tell, how I'm I supposed to know if I like something or not without watching it?
6. Good, now, take these points you consider to be good and construct an argument around these points, and detail why they're good through ethos or logos and how the good points outweigh the many, many, many, many... Bad points.

It's a show that' superficially deep and meaningful (Constantly droning on about hope and faith and blah), while under the surface it makes absolutely no logical sense. How did the Romulans not know their star was going Nova even though stars give off warning signs thousands of years in advance while the Romulans are on equal footing to The Federation tech-wise? How did the Federation go from an accepting and generally anti-discriminatory society to wanting to genocide all the Romulans over the course of only 20 years (If you didn't know, the fact that Romulans even asked for help is a massive sign of trust considering how paranoid they are)? Why does the Federation suddenly have a criminal underground big enough that they're able to run raids of intra-Federation outposts and colonies (Not even The Orion Syndicate had the manpower or gall to try something so idiotic)? Furthermore, why was said criminal organization seemingly totally taken down by 1 blonde chick with some phasers? Why does poverty exist in a post-scarcity society? Why does the series put such a high focus on Picard and Data when they barely interacted in the series? Where's Geordie (You know, Data's actual best friend)? Why did 7's search for humanity lead her to becoming a whisky chugging, phaser blasting, lesbian psychopath?

I call bullshit on #4. your opinions are not statements of fact.

[New haven america]

1. Well, so far you've been the only one here to personally attack people who disagree with your opinion. So if that's not looking down on someone IDK what is.
2. Yep!
3. Again, you're the only one here saying anything remotely like that.
4. I'm simply unbiasedly pointing out the shows flaws. If you consider simply listing flaws as offensive then I suggest you drop this right now because you're not going to have a good time.
5. lol, one of the oldest non-arguments in the book. Pray tell, how I'm I supposed to know if I like something or not without watching it?
6. Good, now, take these points you consider to be good and construct an argument around these points, and detail why they're good through ethos or logos and how the good points outweigh the many, many, many, many... Bad points.

It's a show that' superficially deep and meaningful (Constantly droning on about hope and faith and blah), while under the surface it makes absolutely no logical sense. How did the Romulans not know their star was going Nova even though stars give off warning signs thousands of years in advance while the Romulans are on equal footing to The Federation tech-wise? How did the Federation go from an accepting and generally anti-discriminatory society to wanting to genocide all the Romulans over the course of only 20 years (If you didn't know, the fact that Romulans even asked for help is a massive sign of trust considering how paranoid they are)? Why does the Federation suddenly have a criminal underground big enough that they're able to run raids of intra-Federation outposts and colonies (Not even The Orion Syndicate had the manpower or gall to try something so idiotic)? Furthermore, why was said criminal organization seemingly totally taken down by 1 blonde chick with some phasers? Why does poverty exist in a post-scarcity society? Why does the series put such a high focus on Picard and Data when they barely interacted in the series? Where's Geordie (You know, Data's actual best friend)? Why did 7's search for humanity lead her to becoming a whisky chugging, phaser blasting, lesbian psychopath?

I call bullshit on #4. your opinions are not statements of fact.

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, look up Betelgeuse.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, like Betelgeuse for example.

IIRC there was some technobabble bullshit (egregious even for TNG-era Star Trek), whereby a star thousands of light years away went nova and the shock wave was (intentionally as an act of war, I want to say) sent directionally into subspace toward a particular part of the Alpha Quadrant, interacting only with large gravity well sources such as stars (one of which was the Romulans' home sun). Cue Spock and the magic red ball. That might be Memory Beta level canon, though.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, like Betelgeuse for example.

IIRC there was some technobabble bullshit (egregious even for TNG-era Star Trek), whereby a star thousands of light years away went nova and the shock wave was (intentionally as an act of war, I want to say) sent directionally into subspace toward a particular part of the Alpha Quadrant, interacting only with large gravity well sources such as stars (one of which was the Romulans' home sun). Cue Spock and the magic red ball. That might be Memory Beta level canon, though.

STO explains the nova as having been intentionally set in motion by someone, probably giving the Romulans days or hours to evacuate Romulus.

2009 explains that it wasn't the Romulan sun exactly, but the Hobus star. The Romulans knew about it, but probably underestimated the size and speed of the blast.

[New haven america]

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, like Betelgeuse for example.

IIRC there was some technobabble bullshit (egregious even for TNG-era Star Trek), whereby a star thousands of light years away went nova and the shock wave was (intentionally as an act of war, I want to say) sent directionally into subspace toward a particular part of the Alpha Quadrant, interacting only with large gravity well sources such as stars (one of which was the Romulans' home sun). Cue Spock and the magic red ball. That might be Memory Beta level canon, though.

That's in the Countdown comics (Which used to be canon but aren't anymore), STO, and the Kelvin Timeline. STP fully retconned it to being the star that went nova being Romulus' home star.

You can see why this is annoying me.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

That's in the Countdown comics (Which used to be canon but aren't anymore), STO, and the Kelvin Timeline. STP fully retconned it to being the star that went nova being Romulus' home star.

You can see why this is annoying me.

Oh. Well, yes, I can. There should at least be a manhunt for the saboteur who succeeded at Romulus in the task at which the changeling impersonating Bashir failed at Bajor.

[Tarsonis]

I call bullshit on #4. your opinions are not statements of fact.

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, look up Betelgeuse.

From what I gathered its not that they didn't know. The picard background materials indicate that the impending supernova was discovered at least 6 years before, and probably about 10 years before.

Now the problem here is the Romulan son was a G9 star, or Yellow Sun. as far as we know, yellow suns don't go supernova. Betelgeuse is a red giant and is following conventional knowledge, and we've dated its destruction to within the next 100,000 years. in the case of the Romulan Sun, it shouldn't have been due for death for millions of years, just like ours.


Thus, the Romulan supernova would be considered an abnormal or could possibly be an artificial event. We've seen this in the universe before with Sorin using trilithium to destroy stars. For whatever reason the Sun underwent quantum implosion, and went supernova while still a yellow star.

Also I don't think they're on equal scientific footing. Generally its portrayed that the vast majority of their scientific resources are dedicated toward military development. Something like this might be lagging behind as it would be a "civilian" purpose. And as I said, by conventional knowledge the star shouldn't have gone supernova in the first place, so they probably weren't even really looking.

[Tarsonis]

That's in the Countdown comics (Which used to be canon but aren't anymore), STO, and the Kelvin Timeline. STP fully retconned it to being the star that went nova being Romulus' home star.

You can see why this is annoying me.

Oh. Well, yes, I can. There should at least be a manhunt for the saboteur who succeeded at Romulus in the task at which the changeling impersonating Bashir failed at Bajor.

problem is an event like that would be sudden and nobody would have any forewarning. Materials indicate they knew ahead of time by about 6-10 years

[New haven america]

That's in the Countdown comics (Which used to be canon but aren't anymore), STO, and the Kelvin Timeline. STP fully retconned it to being the star that went nova being Romulus' home star.

You can see why this is annoying me.

Oh. Well, yes, I can. There should at least be a manhunt for the saboteur who succeeded at Romulus in the task at which the changeling impersonating Bashir failed at Bajor.

Thank you.

Well the star went nova on it's own (Which is really fucking weird for a G-type yellow dwarf to do...), but it was the Zhat Vash Bagash Kabazh who made the androids on Mars attack the Federation rescue fleet which was under debate because a bunch of Federation members threatened to pull out because they wanted the Romulans to die (But that's not important) in order to illegalize synthetic organisms in the Federation to stop a possible synthetic uprising that was foretold to them by the Admonition which was a coded message and later weapon about how an ancient robotic race killed their creators that could also be used by organic life to kill robots using the power of sadness thus leading to the total destruction of Romulus Remus and I assume some surrounding systems as well.

You know... You don't realize how convoluted the story is until you write it out.

[New haven america]

How did the Romulans not know their star was going to go Nova when stars give off signs of said nova thousands of years in advance and they're on equal scientific footing with The Federation?

Hell, we can tell when stars are going to go nova right now, look up Betelgeuse.

1. From what I gathered its not that they didn't know. The picard background materials indicate that the impending supernova was discovered at least 6 years before, and probably about 10 years before.

Now the problem here is the Romulan son was a G9 star, or Yellow Sun. as far as we know, yellow suns don't go supernova. Betelgeuse is a red giant and is following conventional knowledge, and we've dated its destruction to within the next 100,000 years. in the case of the Romulan Sun, it shouldn't have been due for death for millions of years, just like ours.


2. Thus, the Romulan supernova would be considered an abnormal or could possibly be an artificial event. We've seen this in the universe before with Sorin using trilithium to destroy stars. For whatever reason the Sun underwent quantum implosion, and went supernova while still a yellow star.

3. Also I don't think they're on equal scientific footing. Generally its portrayed that the vast majority of their scientific resources are dedicated toward military development. Something like this might be lagging behind as it would be a "civilian" purpose. And as I said, by conventional knowledge the star shouldn't have gone supernova in the first place, so they probably weren't even really looking.

1. Which again, is really fucking stupid, because the Romulans are just as advanced in science as the Federation are, and thus would have noticed the signs of that star being unsafe when they were off looking for a new planet to live on after getting kick out of Vulcan. (Because again, nova stars show signs of this very early)
2. Or maybe it's because the writers just don't care about science and just made it Romulus' home star because it adds more emotional weight to the story?
3. They are, and if they weren't so militarily focused they'd probably be better than the Federation cause, you know, they've been space faring for at least 1,500 years.

[Tarsonis]

1. From what I gathered its not that they didn't know. The picard background materials indicate that the impending supernova was discovered at least 6 years before, and probably about 10 years before.

Now the problem here is the Romulan son was a G9 star, or Yellow Sun. as far as we know, yellow suns don't go supernova. Betelgeuse is a red giant and is following conventional knowledge, and we've dated its destruction to within the next 100,000 years. in the case of the Romulan Sun, it shouldn't have been due for death for millions of years, just like ours.


2. Thus, the Romulan supernova would be considered an abnormal or could possibly be an artificial event. We've seen this in the universe before with Sorin using trilithium to destroy stars. For whatever reason the Sun underwent quantum implosion, and went supernova while still a yellow star.

3. Also I don't think they're on equal scientific footing. Generally its portrayed that the vast majority of their scientific resources are dedicated toward military development. Something like this might be lagging behind as it would be a "civilian" purpose. And as I said, by conventional knowledge the star shouldn't have gone supernova in the first place, so they probably weren't even really looking.

1. Which again, is really fucking stupid, because the Romulans are just as advance in science as the Federation are, and thus would have noticed the signs of that star being unsafe when they were off looking for a new planet to live on after getting kick out of Vulcan.

They're technologically on par, but that doesn't mean they're scientifically on par. Science is one of those things that you get put of it what you put into it. If they're not putting a lot of work into stellar cartography for example, they're not gonna be as far along as the feds are. This is what I meant, their non military research is severely lacking. They might be ahead on military technology, but behind on astronomy and stellar anatomy.

2. Or maybe it's because the writers don't care about science and just made it Romulus' home star because it adds more emotional weight to the story?

well yeah that's probably the meta reason. but what purpose do us nerds serve if not to figure out how their ineptitude can still work within the canon?

3. They are, and if they weren't so militarily focused they'd probably be better than the Federation cause, you know, they've been space faring for at least 1,500 years.

Thats not accurate. They've existed longer than the federation yes, but remember that Earth is not the oldest civilization to join the federation. The Vulcans and Andorians have been around just as long as the Romulans.

[Imperial isa]

speaking of orville, season 3 delayed until 2021

Rats was looking forward to watching it.

[Twilight Imperium]

They're technologically on par, but that doesn't mean they're scientifically on par. Science is one of those things that you get put of it what you put into it. If they're not putting a lot of work into stellar cartography for example, they're not gonna be as far along as the feds are. This is what I meant, their non military research is severely lacking. They might be ahead on military technology, but behind on astronomy and stellar anatomy.

I mean there's "we can't cause inverse space-time wedgies as well as the Feds" and there's "we didn't notice our own god damned star is being hinky". We'd probably notice our star moving towards nova with today's tech and telescopes.