[Discussion] Should DOS'ing be a permanent punishment?

[The New California Republic]

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

No. A thousand times no. Getting rid of DOS would just create a shit ton more work for the mods, as there would inevitably be the same players that'd be permanently stuck at the level of getting month long bans again and again and again. It's easier just to wipe them off the site by deleting their nation as soon as they are spotted.

The existence of DOS can also act as a deterrent for rulebreaking behaviour, as every ban and DEAT brings the possibility closer. There will always be people who honestly won't give a shit about the possibility of DOS, but if they are constantly breaking the rules and do not care about any punishment that is meted out to them, then it's better to not have them on the site at all. Use of the site is dependent upon agreeing to abide by the rules. If they can't do that, then they aren't welcome.

If a person is getting to the level that DOS is being considered as the next stage of punishment for them, then they have clearly been subject to multiple nations being DEAT'ed through persistent rulebreaking that shows no signs of abating. They will have been repeatedly told to change their behaviour, and will have been banned for significant periods.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

I'm against getting rid of the punishment now, but I can tell you that there are DOS people who deserve to be let back that soon, Jochistan (who isn't back, but I keep in contact with him) was actually DOSed because of a psychotic episode and is now doing much better. I actually lost my first nation during a psychotic episode as well, but I've gotten so many posts on this one that I wouldn't try to revive it.

[Frisbeeteria]

... was actually DOSed because of a psychotic episode and is now doing much better.

When said psychotic episode lasts two years, we don't have a lot of hope that things will change.

I actually lost my first nation during a psychotic episode

And you're still here. Something must be working.

DOS is not handed out lightly, and we give multiple chances to shape up before we force players to ship out. There are exceptions to that, of course - credible threats to hunt down and punish/kill staff members will earn you a quick trip to purgatory. Threatening to sue Max and/or the site is an even quicker route to the exit. These are not suggestions, mind you. We really don't like dealing with suicide-by-mods. I don't believe we've ever had a SBM case return successfully.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

There are people who rule-break for much longer than that before getting DOS. With people like that, a year ban probably wouldn't change their behavior.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I propose a 10 year ban, myself, then lifting it.

That is pretty much the same as a DOS, taking into account that moderators sometimes let such orders expire.

[The Blaatschapen]

That is pretty much the same as a DOS, taking into account that moderators sometimes let such orders expire.

I am aware, but I just think that officializing it makes sense.

DOS'ing another 10 years with a shorter list of offenses after.

And then the same short list 10 years on, 10 years more, etc.

However if it's a bunch of DOS posters at once, assume it's a conspiracy and ban them all permanently.

There are some offenses that in my opinion should never expire.

[Ransium]

I guarantee this whole idea of not allowing DOS to possibly be permanent is never ever going to happen, so I wouldn’t spend time debating or refining it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I guarantee this whole idea of not allowing DOS to possibly be permanent is never ever going to happen, so I wouldn’t spend time debating or refining it.

I think it could be individually based. Like if someone gets DOS'ed at 13 or 14 and then wants to rejoin the site when they're in their 20's or 30's, they should probably be able to.

[Katganistan]

We've explained it's not going away.
We've explained that some people do, in fact, request a return and then don't exhibit the behaviors they did before, and stay.
We've explained that it is sustained, repeated behavior that earns a DOS, or a really egregious episode.

What else is there to discuss?

If you want to interact with your really cool pals who not only burned their bridges but nuked them, then nuked the ashes, and then raked them into a sterile field to show us how few cares they grew about their actions, interact with them elsewhere. We're not obliged to let other players suffer from their antisocial behavior.

[Thermodolia]

We've explained it's not going away.
We've explained that some people do, in fact, request a return and then don't exhibit the behaviors they did before, and stay.
We've explained that it is sustained, repeated behavior that earns a DOS, or a really egregious episode.

What else is there to discuss?

If you want to interact with your really cool pals who not only burned their bridges but nuked them, then nuked the ashes, and then raked them into a sterile field to show us how few cares they grew about their actions, interact with them elsewhere. We're not obliged to let other players suffer from their antisocial behavior.

I wouldn’t classify all DOSd players as antisocial. There are some who are quite social however they don’t have a filter or just aren’t a good fit for a place like NS. For the latter Facebook or Reddit are probably better places

[The New California Republic]

We've explained it's not going away.
We've explained that some people do, in fact, request a return and then don't exhibit the behaviors they did before, and stay.
We've explained that it is sustained, repeated behavior that earns a DOS, or a really egregious episode.

What else is there to discuss?

If you want to interact with your really cool pals who not only burned their bridges but nuked them, then nuked the ashes, and then raked them into a sterile field to show us how few cares they grew about their actions, interact with them elsewhere. We're not obliged to let other players suffer from their antisocial behavior.

I wouldn’t classify all DOSd players as antisocial. There are some who are quite social however they don’t have a filter or just aren’t a good fit for a place like NS. For the latter Facebook or Reddit are probably better places

But by far the runaway majority do get declared DOS because they are antisocial little turds that have trolled and flamed their way across the forums over the course of several months.

[Thermodolia]

I wouldn’t classify all DOSd players as antisocial. There are some who are quite social however they don’t have a filter or just aren’t a good fit for a place like NS. For the latter Facebook or Reddit are probably better places

But by far the runaway majority do get declared DOS because they are antisocial little turds that have trolled and flamed their way across the forums over the course of several months.

True. A good chunk are just immature utter jerks. They are basically the same people who continue to use insults from Elementary school and think they are hot shit

[Gandoor]

I guarantee this whole idea of not allowing DOS to possibly be permanent is never ever going to happen, so I wouldn’t spend time debating or refining it.

I think it could be individually based. Like if someone gets DOS'ed at 13 or 14 and then wants to rejoin the site when they're in their 20's or 30's, they should probably be able to.

Honestly I would assume that after that long a gap, it'd be more than likely that whatever the mods use to tell if someone is DOS (not asking for details, but I'm presuming shit like IP addresses and the like) would have been changed due to getting new computers/laptops, changing your internet service due to moving, etc.

I mean hell when I joined this site back in 2008, I was using a totally different computer and still had AOL. Obviously I was never made DOS since like, this is my original account, but hell if I had gotten DOS or even just DEATed for being an immature little shit back then (which I kind of was but I didn't join the forum till 2010) and didn't rejoin until like last year, I doubt the mods would have even known that I, in this hypothetical situation, had gotten a nation DEATed a decade ago.

[Aureumterra]

Pretty sure DOS people have returned, but hey, Banana Man won’t return anytime soon (for long)

[Antiprostitution]

The principle of DOS is a good one; the problem is that for people who just want to break the rules DOS becomes a trophy. DOS should be a thing, but it shouldn't have a name. Once you give it a name it becomes a title, you can tell all your friends "Hey I'm DOS on nationstates" which sounds a lot cooler than "Every time I make a nation on nationstates it gets deleted." So I think it should be a permanent punishment but it shouldn't have a name.

[Gandoor]

The principle of DOS is a good one; the problem is that for people who just want to break the rules DOS becomes a trophy. DOS should be a thing, but it shouldn't have a name. Once you give it a name it becomes a title, you can tell all your friends "Hey I'm DOS on nationstates" which sounds a lot cooler than "Every time I make a nation on nationstates it gets deleted." So I think it should be a permanent punishment but it shouldn't have a name.

but like

what would be the point in suddenly not calling DOS 'DOS' after all these years

[Shazbotdom]

The principle of DOS is a good one; the problem is that for people who just want to break the rules DOS becomes a trophy. DOS should be a thing, but it shouldn't have a name. Once you give it a name it becomes a title, you can tell all your friends "Hey I'm DOS on nationstates" which sounds a lot cooler than "Every time I make a nation on nationstates it gets deleted." So I think it should be a permanent punishment but it shouldn't have a name.

but like

what would be the point in suddenly not calling DOS 'DOS' after all these years

There is no reason. It's a ridiculous idea to take away the name of DOS after all these years.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Pretty sure DOS people have returned, but hey, Banana Man won’t return anytime soon (for long)

School will eat up much of his time as well, assuming he really is a child.

[Antiprostitution]

Don't think so. DOS is a serious punishment, a deterrent that effectively removes your rights and privileges of staying in the game. There are people who are troublemakers and watch to see things burn but it ends up short when they rack up multiple successive infractions.

Trust me I know some DOS players in real life. They brag about it like it's some big achievement and they have ways of avoiding the DOS. Some are even in the WA on their main accounts, but when they want to stir things up they can still do it. How do you think DOS players keep coming back? And how do you think I was able to have 14 nations in the WA? It can be done, easily.

Many of the troublemakers are stupid, and simply deleting their nations or sending them a "you are not allowed on this site" type message will keep them away, but there are some that want DOS for the taboo status that it is, and they know what they're doing. I think it would be much better if the rules said something like "If you continue to break the rules your nations will be deleted upon creation" rather than "you will be declared Delete-On-Sight" because the latter makes it sound like some kind of forbidden cult.

[The New California Republic]

The principle of DOS is a good one; the problem is that for people who just want to break the rules DOS becomes a trophy. DOS should be a thing, but it shouldn't have a name. Once you give it a name it becomes a title, you can tell all your friends "Hey I'm DOS on nationstates" which sounds a lot cooler than "Every time I make a nation on nationstates it gets deleted." So I think it should be a permanent punishment but it shouldn't have a name.

This idea is nonsensical and won't change a thing.

[The New California Republic]

Don't think so. DOS is a serious punishment, a deterrent that effectively removes your rights and privileges of staying in the game. There are people who are troublemakers and watch to see things burn but it ends up short when they rack up multiple successive infractions.

Trust me I know some DOS players in real life. They brag about it like it's some big achievement and they have ways of avoiding the DOS. Some are even in the WA on their main accounts, but when they want to stir things up they can still do it. How do you think DOS players keep coming back? And how do you think I was able to have 14 nations in the WA? It can be done, easily.

Many of the troublemakers are stupid, and simply deleting their nations or sending them a "you are not allowed on this site" type message will keep them away, but there are some that want DOS for the taboo status that it is, and they know what they're doing. I think it would be much better if the rules said something like "If you continue to break the rules your nations will be deleted upon creation" rather than "you will be declared Delete-On-Sight" because the latter makes it sound like some kind of forbidden cult.

...who on Earth are you quoting? That quote isn't anywhere in this thread.

[Antiprostitution]

Trust me I know some DOS players in real life. They brag about it like it's some big achievement and they have ways of avoiding the DOS. Some are even in the WA on their main accounts, but when they want to stir things up they can still do it. How do you think DOS players keep coming back? And how do you think I was able to have 14 nations in the WA? It can be done, easily.

Many of the troublemakers are stupid, and simply deleting their nations or sending them a "you are not allowed on this site" type message will keep them away, but there are some that want DOS for the taboo status that it is, and they know what they're doing. I think it would be much better if the rules said something like "If you continue to break the rules your nations will be deleted upon creation" rather than "you will be declared Delete-On-Sight" because the latter makes it sound like some kind of forbidden cult.

...who on Earth are you quoting? That quote isn't anywhere in this thread.

I don't know, he must have edited his post or something

[The New California Republic]

...who on Earth are you quoting? That quote isn't anywhere in this thread.

I don't know, he must have edited his post or something

Who?

[Antiprostitution]

I don't know, he must have edited his post or something

Who?

I don't remember, I don't care, it doesn't matter, etc.

[The New California Republic]

I don't know, he must have edited his post or something

Who?

I don't remember, I don't care, it doesn't matter, etc.

So...you just made up a quote and responded to it yourself. How very bizarre.