NationStates

Ghuraba Al-Khorusani wrote:Saying Ameen after Fatihah is obligatory. Its is Kafir not to, of course this is 12er prayer we're discussing.

I'd say it would be better to avoid expressions as "kafir", as it is considered derogatory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

Yes, it would be. viewtopic.php?p=28282889#p28282889

I am very confused and at the same time surprised that the word "kafir" is considered offensive and derogatory by some.

1)The Arabic word "kafir" is related to the word "kufr" which means disbelief in the religion of Islam. So therefore, a kafir is someone who isn't a member of the Islamic religion and the word is not used as a derogatory term but simply to say that a person is a non-Muslim. Wikipedia isn't a credible source in such situations.

2) This person may have English as his second or even third language. So most likely when he said the word "kafir", he meant that the particular thing isn't part of Islam and didn't mean to offend non Muslims.

Thank you for your time.

I agree with AAE. The word "kafir" isn't derogatory in Arabic. It comes from the root "K-F-R", and is most certainly not used as a derogatory term commonly in the Muslim world. "Infidel" is better as such a word, but "kafir" simply defines the a person not believing in Islam.

WIki sayeth it is a derogatory term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

Farnhamia wrote:WIki sayeth it is a derogatory term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

The sources are rather bullshit, Farn, with the first simply stating "kuffar is a derogatory term" without any explanation within. Wikipedia can be wrong, especially on issues such as religion and linguistics.

Just because some guy wrote "kuffar is a derogatory term", quite literally, into three articles without even referencing the Arabic linguistics or the root of the word, and then somebody else looked up "kuffar derogatory", again quite literally, then pasted said "sources" onto Wikipedia does not make Wikipedia the end all, be all argument.

The word Kuffar as translated from google translate
كفر Disbelief
Kafireen or Kuffar is plural meaning multiple disbelievers
Kufr or Kafir is meaning an act of disbelief or infidelity

I speak a good amount of Arabic to know better, don't confuse it for the south African term to refer to a person of darker color.

Vistulange wrote:

Farnhamia wrote:WIki sayeth it is a derogatory term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

The sources are rather bullshit, Farn, with the first simply stating "kuffar is a derogatory term" without any explanation within. Wikipedia can be wrong, especially on issues such as religion and linguistics.

Just because some guy wrote "kuffar is a derogatory term", quite literally, into three articles without even referencing the Arabic linguistics or the root of the word, and then somebody else looked up "kuffar derogatory", again quite literally, then pasted said "sources" onto Wikipedia does not make Wikipedia the end all, be all argument.

Indeed. See xkcd #978.

Vistulange wrote:The word "kafir" isn't derogatory in Arabic.

Please; the Mod based in Dubai knows otherwise.

The Koranic Arabic and colloquial dialectical Arabic meanings have diverged, and both كافر and the plural كفّار are now frequently used in a derogatory fashion in colloquial Arabic while retaining a far more neutral Koranic sense.

So let's not play all innocent here. If someone knows enough Classical Arabic to know the Koranic meaning, I find it very difficult to believe that they'd be blissfully unaware of the derogatory common colloquial meaning.

Given the inability of all but a tiny minority of people using these forums to distinguish between the Classical and colloquial meanings, I'd strongly recommend steering clear of a direct transliteration of the word into English unless you're making it absolutely and unambiguously clear that you're using it in the strict Koranic sense.


If Ghuraba Al-Khorusani chooses to formally appeal - and the appeal should come from Ghuraba Al-Khorusani only - it's this distinction he should base his appeal on; and I'll do my best to make sure the Moderation team consider the context appropriately.

The Archregimancy wrote:

Vistulange wrote:The word "kafir" isn't derogatory in Arabic.

Please; the Mod based in Dubai knows otherwise.

The Koranic Arabic and colloquial dialectical Arabic meanings have diverged, and both كافر and the plural كفّار are now frequently used in a derogatory fashion in colloquial Arabic while retaining a far more neutral Koranic sense.

So let's not play all innocent here. If someone knows enough Classical Arabic to know the Koranic meaning, I find it very difficult to believe that they'd be blissfully unaware of the derogatory common colloquial meaning.

Given the inability of all but a tiny minority of people using these forums to distinguish between the Classical and colloquial meanings, I'd strongly recommend steering clear of a direct transliteration of the word into English unless you're making it absolutely and unambiguously clear that you're using it in the strict Koranic sense.


If Ghuraba Al-Khorusani chooses to formally appeal - and the appeal should come from Ghuraba Al-Khorusani only - it's this distinction he should base his appeal on; and I'll do my best to make sure the Moderation team consider the context appropriately.

Truth be told, I actually did wish for you in specific to get involved when the moderation team discussed this sort of thing, and I'm quite happy now that you've seen it. I'm sorry for posting in a moderation thread which has nothing to do with me, but I felt it was a sensitive issue itself. Thanks, Arch.