Discussion about R/D Game and RP Opting Out

[Mini Miehm]

It's this simple. We need a fix now. Whatever it is, it's needed now. And that means mod involvement. RP regions need protection, and there are no protections at this point beyond the founder and the password. Raiders have demonstrated that they can and will gleefully and wantonly strip passwords from regions if they are permitted to do so. This shit needs to end. Until they can get a hard coded way to opt out, we need the mods to step up and take ownership of the problem. However imperfect it may be, it is still better than being at the mercy of raiders whenever the mood takes them to shit on someone else's sandwich.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

I type fast.

Seriously though, I don't think the mods are going to want to put themselves into the middle of it barring a technical solution. A better use of everybody's time and righteous fury would be to lobby the admin to code this stuff to give everybody a hardcoded fix instead of try to pressure the mods to try and juryrig an ineffective and easily-abused patch on the problem.

Well let's get an ineffective patch, until the code can be written.

That worked so well the last time the mods tried to be an ineffective patch on gameplay. Key word being "ineffective." Totally, utterly, hair-pullingly ineffective.

[Unibot III]

I know roleplayers see this as "we shouldn't have to defend" and I feel the same way - that's why I defend, but I can't help but see forty passionate anti-invasion players and kind of die inside. I have to beg and plead to get twenty players+ online to try to help free a region.

Anarchy has been under occupation and unable to do anything to free itself for over five months now (150 days) because defenders haven't had the numbers to help free the region.

You know, I wasn't always a "gameplayer". I was an RPer and defending took over my time because there weren't enough people as it was to keep regions safe. It bugs me when I read these threads and all they do is hate on "defenders" as though they're one in the same as invaders and then act as though we all don't have something better to do than to try to help out where we can.

Of course, it's unfair that people are expected to fight invaders and participate in "military gameplay" whether they like it or not. I've never thought that is right or fair and that's why I became a defender. But if the collective voice expressed here, expressed it on the battlefield, defenders wouldn't have to sacrifice all of their time and who they are in NationStates to be solely a "defender" and we would stand a chance at actually overwhelming invaders.

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one" - Marcus Aurelius.

[Rephesus]

These "Battlefields" are regions which people took time to build holding communities, not some digital fortresses for Raiders to Occupy and defenders to "Liberate".

RPers want out. They don't want protection that'll just attract raiders, they want out.

[Mini Miehm]

I know roleplayers see this as "we shouldn't have to defend" and I feel the same way - that's why I defend, but I can't help but see forty passionate anti-invasion players and kind of die inside. I have to beg and plead to get twenty players+ online to try to help free a region.

Anarchy has been under occupation and unable to do anything to free itself for over five months now (150 days) because defenders haven't had the numbers to help free the region.

You know, I wasn't always a "gameplayer". I was an RPer and defending took over my time because there weren't enough people as it was to keep regions safe. It bugs me when I read these threads and all they do is hate on "defenders" as though they're one in the same as invaders and then act as though we all don't have something better to do than to try to help out where we can.

Of course, it's unfair that people are expected to fight invaders and participate in "military gameplay" whether they like it or not. I've never thought that is right or fair and that's why I became a defender. But if the collective voice expressed here, expressed it on the battlefield, defenders wouldn't have to sacrifice all of their time and who they are in NationStates to be solely a "defender" and we would stand a chance at actually overwhelming invaders.

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one" - Marcus Aurelius.

Seriously dude, we don't care either way. Raider or defender, we really just don't give a crap. If that's your scene, go to it, but leave us out of it. Entirely. We don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, we just want to be left alone. Entirely left alone.

[Rethan]

I know roleplayers see this as "we shouldn't have to defend" and I feel the same way - that's why I defend, but I can't help but see forty passionate anti-invasion players and kind of die inside. I have to beg and plead to get twenty players+ online to try to help free a region.

Anarchy has been under occupation and unable to do anything to free itself for over five months now (150 days) because defenders haven't had the numbers to help free the region.

You know, I wasn't always a "gameplayer". I was an RPer and defending took over my time because there weren't enough people as it was to keep regions safe. It bugs me when I read these threads and all they do is hate on "defenders" as though they're one in the same as invaders and then act as though we all don't have something better to do than to try to help out where we can.

Of course, it's unfair that people are expected to fight invaders and participate in "military gameplay" whether they like it or not. I've never thought that is right or fair and that's why I became a defender. But if the collective voice expressed here, expressed it on the battlefield, defenders wouldn't have to sacrifice all of their time and who they are in NationStates to be solely a "defender" and we would stand a chance at actually overwhelming invaders.

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one" - Marcus Aurelius.

Seriously dude, we don't care either way. Raider or defender, we really just don't give a crap. If that's your scene, go to it, but leave us out of it. Entirely. We don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, we just want to be left alone. Entirely left alone.

I think you may have missed Unibot's point. He's in complete agreement with you, and doesn't appear to even want to be a defender. But so long as regions are vulnerable to raiding without their consent, he's forced to be one.

*insert cliche'd Dark Knight quote*

[The Peoples of Xaer]

Here's the thing though. Regions are a game mechanic. Tons of people RP just fine using the forums, whether they share a region or not. Unless we help the admin figure out some way to make some sort of roleplay region mechanic that's split off from the gameplay region mechanics, anything moderation tries to do is going to be infuriating flailing around like what we've seen today.

How would a roleplay region work, so that it was completely cut off from gameplay mechanics? No WA delegate? Access to the roleplay region requiring an invite from the founder (instead of a password which could be leaked?) No banject controls? No influence mechanic? Foundership set to pass automatically to the next-longest resident? Let's think about this and fire something at [violet] that'd be EFFECTIVE! And hopefully not difficult to code?

[Mini Miehm]

Seriously dude, we don't care either way. Raider or defender, we really just don't give a crap. If that's your scene, go to it, but leave us out of it. Entirely. We don't want to raid, we don't want to defend, we just want to be left alone. Entirely left alone.

I think you may have missed Unibot's point. He's in complete agreement with you, and doesn't appear to even want to be a defender. But so long as regions are vulnerable to raiding without their consent, he's forced to be one.

*insert cliche'd Dark Knight quote*

I may have. I read it as more of his exhortations for people to become defenders.

[Avenio]

Here's the thing though. Regions are a game mechanic. Tons of people RP just fine using the forums, whether they share a region or not. Unless we help the admin figure out some way to make some sort of roleplay region mechanic that's split off from the gameplay region mechanics, anything moderation tries to do is going to be infuriating flailing around like what we've seen today.

How would a roleplay region work, so that it was completely cut off from gameplay mechanics? No WA delegate? Access to the roleplay region requiring an invite from the founder (instead of a password which could be leaked?) No banject controls? No influence mechanic? Foundership set to pass automatically to the next-longest resident? Let's think about this and fire something at [violet] that'd be EFFECTIVE! And hopefully not difficult to code?

I gave an example here that should be palatable to both parties;

Having the mods involved means that the process would be transparent. I can see it being like the designated 'school' regions - a given region applies for 'RP region' status, the mods review the case by looking at IP addresses or what have you to ensure that the region would be used in good faith, and the status would either get approved or denied. Nations within the region would, say, get tagged with an "RP'er" label (like the 'WA Member' label now) and would be unable to move to any other region that didn't have approved 'RP region' status in order to prevent abuse by gameplayers. If the RP'ers wanted to change regions or create a new one, all they'd have to do is create a new puppet to found a new region, apply for 'RP region' status and move their accounts to it from the old region, letting it cease to exist.

[The Orson Empire]

Something definitely needs to be done about this. I do not want to be forced to participate in that useless R/D Game. I am just here for the roleplaying.

[Mini Miehm]

Here's the thing though. Regions are a game mechanic. Tons of people RP just fine using the forums, whether they share a region or not. Unless we help the admin figure out some way to make some sort of roleplay region mechanic that's split off from the gameplay region mechanics, anything moderation tries to do is going to be infuriating flailing around like what we've seen today.

How would a roleplay region work, so that it was completely cut off from gameplay mechanics? No WA delegate? Access to the roleplay region requiring an invite from the founder (instead of a password which could be leaked?) No banject controls? No influence mechanic? Foundership set to pass automatically to the next-longest resident? Let's think about this and fire something at [violet] that'd be EFFECTIVE! And hopefully not difficult to code?

Strip the region of delegacy, and give a delegatable founder status, only grantable by the founder. Also still allow passwords. Best way to do it. Screw the raiders anyway.

[Unibot III]

These "Battlefields" are regions which people took time to build holding communities, not some digital fortresses for Raiders to Occupy and defenders to "Liberate".

RPers want out. They don't want protection that'll just attract raiders, they want out.

I agree that these "battlefields" are people's homes - that's why I want to see the end of these occupations as soon as possible. It pains me to see a region like Anarchy occupied for not even just days, but months. It's extremely frustrating that I am not able to do anything about it because the whole of defenderdom does not have the support to able to liberate these regions.

In a week from now, these discussions will die down - and everybody here is going to go back to their forums and largely forget about these issues, while people's homes are actually getting occupied and invaded. The popular idea here seems to be conflate "invaders" with "defenders" as if we're all one group of players that condones and enjoys invasions. But this does need to be the case and this is not the case. There is stuff to do and people who need your help, if you're willing to give it. That's all I'm saying - thanks.

- Unibot.

[Valrifell]

Adding an opt-out that cannot be manipulated by raiding regions is going be a very difficult task, if it's going to be a simple "opt-out" button, what's to stop a raider region like TBR, TEK, or the countless others from having their tags and held regions "opt-out" effectively eliminating any hope of said regions to be liberated by defenders. So can someone pitch any sort of idea that would work? Because spewing out "WE NEED OPT-OUT NOW!111!!!" isn't really being beneficial to the situation.

[New Babylonia]

I know roleplayers see this as "we shouldn't have to defend" and I feel the same way - that's why I defend, but I can't help but see forty passionate anti-invasion players and kind of die inside. I have to beg and plead to get twenty players+ online to try to help free a region.

Anarchy has been under occupation and unable to do anything to free itself for over five months now (150 days) because defenders haven't had the numbers to help free the region.

You know, I wasn't always a "gameplayer". I was an RPer and defending took over my time because there weren't enough people as it was to keep regions safe. It bugs me when I read these threads and all they do is hate on "defenders" as though they're one in the same as invaders and then act as though we all don't have something better to do than to try to help out where we can.

Of course, it's unfair that people are expected to fight invaders and participate in "military gameplay" whether they like it or not. I've never thought that is right or fair and that's why I became a defender. But if the collective voice expressed here, expressed it on the battlefield, defenders wouldn't have to sacrifice all of their time and who they are in NationStates to be solely a "defender" and we would stand a chance at actually overwhelming invaders.

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one" - Marcus Aurelius.

You just earned a cookie. I totally read that as if the story of a great hero who really never wanted to be one, and only did what he had to because someone had to do it. You get an entire truck full of cookies, actually.

[The Tump]

Incidentally, as this is a general discussion, how could some like I opt out of the R/D process, without moving region? (And without calling Defenders in to suppress Raiders, because that's just the flipside of R/D, by definition.)

I think the answer is that I can't. Which bothers me not (I'm neither R/Ding nor RPing but just doing my own thing, affecting nobody else and not being affected by anybody, in return) but that's just a fortunate situation, given how unbalanced the situation could be said to be, already.

[Nephmir]

Here's the thing though. Regions are a game mechanic. Tons of people RP just fine using the forums, whether they share a region or not. Unless we help the admin figure out some way to make some sort of roleplay region mechanic that's split off from the gameplay region mechanics, anything moderation tries to do is going to be infuriating flailing around like what we've seen today.

How would a roleplay region work, so that it was completely cut off from gameplay mechanics? No WA delegate? Access to the roleplay region requiring an invite from the founder (instead of a password which could be leaked?) No banject controls? No influence mechanic? Foundership set to pass automatically to the next-longest resident? Let's think about this and fire something at [violet] that'd be EFFECTIVE! And hopefully not difficult to code?

Strip the region of delegacy, and give a delegatable founder status, only grantable by the founder. Also still allow passwords. Best way to do it. Screw the raiders anyway.

There's a change coming soon kind of like that, called "Regional Officers".

[New Babylonia]

Strip the region of delegacy, and give a delegatable founder status, only grantable by the founder. Also still allow passwords. Best way to do it. Screw the raiders anyway.

There's a change coming soon kind of like that, called "Regional Officers".

Thank god. I'm not in a RPing region anymore, but having been anyone I can understand, agree with, and support fully their 'just fuck off and leave us alone' attitude.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

Here's the thing though. Regions are a game mechanic. Tons of people RP just fine using the forums, whether they share a region or not. Unless we help the admin figure out some way to make some sort of roleplay region mechanic that's split off from the gameplay region mechanics, anything moderation tries to do is going to be infuriating flailing around like what we've seen today.

How would a roleplay region work, so that it was completely cut off from gameplay mechanics? No WA delegate? Access to the roleplay region requiring an invite from the founder (instead of a password which could be leaked?) No banject controls? No influence mechanic? Foundership set to pass automatically to the next-longest resident? Let's think about this and fire something at [violet] that'd be EFFECTIVE! And hopefully not difficult to code?

I gave an example here that should be palatable to both parties;

Having the mods involved means that the process would be transparent. I can see it being like the designated 'school' regions - a given region applies for 'RP region' status, the mods review the case by looking at IP addresses or what have you to ensure that the region would be used in good faith, and the status would either get approved or denied. Nations within the region would, say, get tagged with an "RP'er" label (like the 'WA Member' label now) and would be unable to move to any other region that didn't have approved 'RP region' status in order to prevent abuse by gameplayers. If the RP'ers wanted to change regions or create a new one, all they'd have to do is create a new puppet to found a new region, apply for 'RP region' status and move their accounts to it from the old region, letting it cease to exist.

Given the ongoing silence from the mods, I imagine they don't find it palatable. Would it really be transparent? Or just busywork? Do you really want mods, who some people are claiming have some kind of antipathy (or at least apathy) toward RP regions to be the same ones trying to decide which regions should get classed as RP regions? I don't think they're going to give us a temporary fix.

[Pollona]

Adding an opt-out that cannot be manipulated by raiding regions is going be a very difficult task, if it's going to be a simple "opt-out" button, what's to stop a raider region like TBR, TEK, or the countless others from having their tags and held regions "opt-out" effectively eliminating any hope of said regions to be liberated by defenders. So can someone pitch any sort of idea that would work? Because spewing out "WE NEED OPT-OUT NOW!111!!!" isn't really being beneficial to the situation.

Again, not to toot my own horn, but if an opt out button is "locked" say, for a specific period of time, that would reduce the incentive for Raider's to abuse the opt out correct?

It's not the only solution by far, but if this is the simplest type of fix, then the problem is not impossible to solve.

[Avenio]

I gave an example here that should be palatable to both parties;

Given the ongoing silence from the mods, I imagine they don't find it palatable. Would it really be transparent? Or just busywork? Do you really want mods, who some people are claiming have some kind of antipathy (or at least apathy) toward RP regions to be the same ones trying to decide which regions should get classed as RP regions? I don't think they're going to give us a temporary fix.

Well, the radio silence from the mods on this sort of problem should be one of the problems on the docket for this thread. Having this thread carry on for another five pages until it gets locked by the mods a week from now with nothing more done on the issue other than the usual 'We're taking your suggestions into considerations, thank you for your input' isn't an acceptable solution.

Either way, handing it to the mods and adding functionality to the game rather than taking away a function or putting into place a proscriptive ruling is probably the best starting point for finding a solution that is both a.) easy to implement and b.) acceptable for everyone.

[Vangaziland]

Based on what I've seen, the mods just don't care. They just want us to shut up and take it. In my nation, it's almost Independence Day. We should be free from having to be subjected to that foolish r/d game.

On another note, I'm an American combat veteran. I am so sick of hearing raiders and defenders talk like they are accomplished military commanders. You are not. RPers understand OOC vs IC. Just because some of you raiders can't write your way out of a paper bag doesn't mean you need to ruin nationstates.

[Pollona]

Based on what I've seen, the mods just don't care. They just want us to shut up and take it. In my nation, it's almost Independence Day. We should be free from having to be subjected to that foolish r/d game.

On another note, I'm an American combat veteran. I am so sick of hearing raiders and defenders talk like they are accomplished military commanders. You are not. RPers understand OOC vs IC. Just because some of you raiders can't write your way out of a paper bag doesn't mean you need to ruin nationstates.

The Mods are claiming they are watching this issue develop very closely. But you are right, whether we can expect them to follow up with consultation or a proper review of the R/D aspect of the game is a completely different issue.

It seems like a no brainier, this issue of distrust between RP'ers and the Mods runs all the way back to Jolt (oh boy how time flies). Fixing this issue alone would restore a lot of goodwill.

[Arkandros]

If I may, I would like to offer a solution for the continuity of RP regions. As a founder leaves, the body at large elects a new leader, who creates a new, duplicate nation. The collection of nations then migrates to this new nation, allowing the elected leader to become the founder, creating founder continuity. Until a more permanent solution is created, I believe this would offer some degree of stability to nations who do not wish to be part of the raid/defense game, yet wish to stay together. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, or debate the validity of this option, as you will.

[Questers]

Based on what I've seen, the mods just don't care. They just want us to shut up and take it. In my nation, it's almost Independence Day. We should be free from having to be subjected to that foolish r/d game.

On another note, I'm an American combat veteran. I am so sick of hearing raiders and defenders talk like they are accomplished military commanders. You are not. RPers understand OOC vs IC. Just because some of you raiders can't write your way out of a paper bag doesn't mean you need to ruin nationstates.

Lol, owned.

[The Peoples of Xaer]

Based on what I've seen, the mods just don't care. They just want us to shut up and take it. In my nation, it's almost Independence Day. We should be free from having to be subjected to that foolish r/d game.

On another note, I'm an American combat veteran. I am so sick of hearing raiders and defenders talk like they are accomplished military commanders. You are not. RPers understand OOC vs IC. Just because some of you raiders can't write your way out of a paper bag doesn't mean you need to ruin nationstates.

While your service to the US is most certainly appreciated, I'm not really sure that it's relevant to the whole "How to section off RP regions from GP mechanics?" thing.