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[SUBMITTED] Come Give @@LEADER@@ A Kiss!

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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:28 am

Candensia wrote:I see the reference in option two, and it really has good comedic potential. Can you sell it more?


As in, make it more pronounced? I'll give it a try!
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:58 am

Candensia wrote:I see the reference in option two, and it really has good comedic potential. Can you sell it more?


How about this:

[OPTION 2] "Conceal? Don't feel? Don't let them know?" asks gay rights activist Elsa @@RANDOMLASTNAME@@, her ice-white hair slightly singed. "Well, now you know!" she exclaims, tearing off her coat, revealing a sparkly rainbow-colored dress. "Let it go, let it go! Don't hold the gay back anymore!"

[EFFECT 2] divorce rates are increasing as citizens come out of the closet in droves
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Postby Thurlingen » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:21 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
Candensia wrote:I see the reference in option two, and it really has good comedic potential. Can you sell it more?


How about this:

[OPTION 2] "Conceal? Don't feel? Don't let them know?" asks gay rights activist Elsa @@RANDOMLASTNAME@@, her ice-white hair slightly singed. "Well, now you know!" she exclaims, tearing off her coat, revealing a sparkly rainbow-colored dress. "Let it go, let it go! Don't hold the gay back anymore!"

[EFFECT 2] divorce rates are increasing as citizens come out of the closet in droves


I love it :lol2:

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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:00 am

Alright, draft 9 is ready! I have altered Options 2 and 3 to fit in with the commentary about selling the Let It Go-trope more. What do people think, does it work? :)
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:54 pm

Upon consideration, I've decided to change the title to "Give Your @@LEADER@@ A Kiss" in draft 9, as I believe it suits the narrative of the issue more. Do others agree? :)
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:40 pm

Why is the only option which opposes this the one which makes him look like a ranging homophobe?why can't leader oppose being made to kiss the same gender without being a homophobe?
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:44 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Why is the only option which opposes this the one which makes him look like a ranging homophobe?why can't leader oppose being made to kiss the same gender without being a homophobe?


Leader is not made to kiss anyone? It's photoshopped images of leader, not actual footage of leader kissing someone of the same gender. Surely you see the difference here?

The nation has a homophobic status quo, as set by the validity. What else do you expect the response to be from a homophobic country? The option is written in light of the feedback I had gotten, which encouraged me to write it up this way. Option 3 is the more moderate option in this case, but if you don't want to come across as homophobic, there's option 2 or 4
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:50 pm

Any commentary on draft 9? :) I'm eager to improve where necessary!
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Postby Makdon » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:20 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Why is the only option which opposes this the one which makes him look like a ranging homophobe?why can't leader oppose being made to kiss the same gender without being a homophobe?


Leader is not made to kiss anyone? It's photoshopped images of leader, not actual footage of leader kissing someone of the same gender. Surely you see the difference here?

The nation has a homophobic status quo, as set by the validity. What else do you expect the response to be from a homophobic country? The option is written in light of the feedback I had gotten, which encouraged me to write it up this way. Option 3 is the more moderate option in this case, but if you don't want to come across as homophobic, there's option 2 or 4

I think it might be good to have an option where the leader oppose such images, limiting free speech, while still supporting the LGBT community. I would give the players more freedom without, I think, messing up the narrative
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:30 pm

I'm not sure if this is intentional, but consider the @@LEADER@@ macro in the title.
"Come Give Your Leader A Kiss!" without the macro sounds fine, but for me, with the macro, it would be "Come Give Your Charles Dexter A Kiss!" which sounds a little bit off. I can kinda see where the second one could be intentional and work fine, but it still sounds kinda weird to me.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:00 pm

SherpDaWerp wrote:I'm not sure if this is intentional, but consider the @@LEADER@@ macro in the title.
"Come Give Your Leader A Kiss!" without the macro sounds fine, but for me, with the macro, it would be "Come Give Your Charles Dexter A Kiss!" which sounds a little bit off. I can kinda see where the second one could be intentional and work fine, but it still sounds kinda weird to me.


And what if I'd remove "your" from the title? So it would be "Come Give Leader A Kiss!"? In your case for example it would be "Come Give Charles Dexter A Kiss!", would it sound weird to you still? I wouldn't mind if it sounded awkward because it's meant to go along the "come give your uncle a kiss!" trope, which I am sure made many children feel awkward haha. But if it doesn't work, then I can change it to Leader instead of the macro.

Makdon wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:
Leader is not made to kiss anyone? It's photoshopped images of leader, not actual footage of leader kissing someone of the same gender. Surely you see the difference here?

The nation has a homophobic status quo, as set by the validity. What else do you expect the response to be from a homophobic country? The option is written in light of the feedback I had gotten, which encouraged me to write it up this way. Option 3 is the more moderate option in this case, but if you don't want to come across as homophobic, there's option 2 or 4

I think it might be good to have an option where the leader oppose such images, limiting free speech, while still supporting the LGBT community. I would give the players more freedom without, I think, messing up the narrative


Well, option 3 is sort of meant to reflect that. Because basically you let the LGBT community be free but it has to remain underground/unseen.

How would you see Leader being supportive of the LGBT community, but forbid images like that, though? Because to me it comes across as a bit contradictory, forbidding imagery like that but at the same time being supportive of the LGBT cause. Could you explain a bit more what you mean?
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SherpDaWerp
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:07 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:
SherpDaWerp wrote:I'm not sure if this is intentional, but consider the @@LEADER@@ macro in the title.
"Come Give Your Leader A Kiss!" without the macro sounds fine, but for me, with the macro, it would be "Come Give Your Charles Dexter A Kiss!" which sounds a little bit off. I can kinda see where the second one could be intentional and work fine, but it still sounds kinda weird to me.


And what if I'd remove "your" from the title? So it would be "Come Give Leader A Kiss!"? In your case for example it would be "Come Give Charles Dexter A Kiss!", would it sound weird to you still? I wouldn't mind if it sounded awkward because it's meant to go along the "come give your uncle a kiss!" trope, which I am sure made many children feel awkward haha. But if it doesn't work, then I can change it to Leader instead of the macro.


Yeah, getting rid of the your would 100% work great. As another example, if the nation's leader was "holy emperor steve", the title would appear as "Come Give Holy Emperor Steve A Kiss!". Other than that, this issue is looking solid :)
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Postby Daarwyrth » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:13 pm

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:
And what if I'd remove "your" from the title? So it would be "Come Give Leader A Kiss!"? In your case for example it would be "Come Give Charles Dexter A Kiss!", would it sound weird to you still? I wouldn't mind if it sounded awkward because it's meant to go along the "come give your uncle a kiss!" trope, which I am sure made many children feel awkward haha. But if it doesn't work, then I can change it to Leader instead of the macro.


Yeah, getting rid of the your would 100% work great. As another example, if the nation's leader was "holy emperor steve", the title would appear as "Come Give Holy Emperor Steve A Kiss!". Other than that, this issue is looking solid :)


Then "your" is gone from the title! :) I think stuff like "Come Give Holy Emperor Steve A Kiss" could lead to really funny titles, so I don't mind keeping it in! But I agree, the "your" made it sound weird
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Postby Bears Armed » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:27 am

You're presuming that kisses between adults must be sexual? there are RL cultures where it's just a perfectly acceptable non-sexual form of greeting between adults of the same sex.
There might even be some cultures where, due to sexual prudery, it's more acceptable between adults of the same sex than it is between adults [who aren't married to each other] of opposite sexes...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:19 am

Bears Armed wrote:You're presuming that kisses between adults must be sexual? there are RL cultures where it's just a perfectly acceptable non-sexual form of greeting between adults of the same sex.
There might even be some cultures where, due to sexual prudery, it's more acceptable between adults of the same sex than it is between adults [who aren't married to each other] of opposite sexes...


No not at all, I don't mean to presume that all kisses between adults are inherently sexual. I know that for example in France people greet one another by kissing on the cheek, no matter the gender. But the photoshopped photos are used in a specific context, namely, to highlight low LGBT rights in a specific country and to make it more acceptable in the given nation.

I'm not sure I am getting your criticism here, what is it exactly that you're trying to point out? What should I change in your opinion?
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:12 pm

As I am feeling content about draft 9, I think I'm ready to submit it! But before I do, I was hoping to gather any final comments or remarks about what could still receive improvement. So please, share your thoughts with me! :)
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bears Armed » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:31 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:You're presuming that kisses between adults must be sexual? there are RL cultures where it's just a perfectly acceptable non-sexual form of greeting between adults of the same sex.
There might even be some cultures where, due to sexual prudery, it's more acceptable between adults of the same sex than it is between adults [who aren't married to each other] of opposite sexes...


No not at all, I don't mean to presume that all kisses between adults are inherently sexual. I know that for example in France people greet one another by kissing on the cheek, no matter the gender. But the photoshopped photos are used in a specific context, namely, to highlight low LGBT rights in a specific country and to make it more acceptable in the given nation.

I'm not sure I am getting your criticism here, what is it exactly that you're trying to point out?

just that, even with your specified validity, there are going to be people -- IC as well as OOC -- for whom this "issue" doesn't make sense, and would automatically be dismissed. Mind you, I'm not sure whether there's any alternative wording for which that wouldn't also be the case...
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:45 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:
No not at all, I don't mean to presume that all kisses between adults are inherently sexual. I know that for example in France people greet one another by kissing on the cheek, no matter the gender. But the photoshopped photos are used in a specific context, namely, to highlight low LGBT rights in a specific country and to make it more acceptable in the given nation.

I'm not sure I am getting your criticism here, what is it exactly that you're trying to point out?

just that, even with your specified validity, there are going to be people -- IC as well as OOC -- for whom this "issue" doesn't make sense, and would automatically be dismissed. Mind you, I'm not sure whether there's any alternative wording for which that wouldn't also be the case...


But I don't understand why it wouldn't make sense? A particular group of society is being excluded, in this case the LGBT community, so to garner attention to their cause and their status of being oppressed in @@NAME@@, they're photoshopping pictures of the nation's head of state kissing members of the same gender. In a country that has a homophobic status quo that would definitely garner attention and be debated.

The initial draft had that the gay rights activists photoshopped the colours of the rainbow into @@LEADER@@'s skin tone. Commentary was that a rainbow was too ambiguous. So I changed it to @@LEADER@@ kissing members of the same gender in the pictures and that's ambiguous/vague as well? What else can I do to make it clearer? Commentary from the issue editors was the kissing was a good idea, so I kept that instead of the rainbow-trope based on their feedback.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Bears Armed » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:59 am

Daarwyrth wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:just that, even with your specified validity, there are going to be people -- IC as well as OOC -- for whom this "issue" doesn't make sense, and would automatically be dismissed. Mind you, I'm not sure whether there's any alternative wording for which that wouldn't also be the case...


But I don't understand why it wouldn't make sense? A particular group of society is being excluded, in this case the LGBT community, so to garner attention to their cause and their status of being oppressed in @@NAME@@, they're photoshopping pictures of the nation's head of state kissing members of the same gender. In a country that has a homophobic status quo that would definitely garner attention and be debated.

If kissing members of the same-sex sex a standard greeting in @@NAME@@ then the homophobes there aren't going to see anything wrong about those photoshopped pictures in the first place, are they?
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
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Postby Sanctaria » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:09 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:
But I don't understand why it wouldn't make sense? A particular group of society is being excluded, in this case the LGBT community, so to garner attention to their cause and their status of being oppressed in @@NAME@@, they're photoshopping pictures of the nation's head of state kissing members of the same gender. In a country that has a homophobic status quo that would definitely garner attention and be debated.

If kissing members of the same-sex sex a standard greeting in @@NAME@@ then the homophobes there aren't going to see anything wrong about those photoshopped pictures in the first place, are they?

Ok, the nitpicking in this thread is getting seriously out of control.

We don't track such cultural idiosyncrasies. You've been playing this game long enough to know that. We do track attitudes toward LGBT and LGBT rights. The author's premise is sound.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:41 am

Sanctaria wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:If kissing members of the same-sex sex a standard greeting in @@NAME@@ then the homophobes there aren't going to see anything wrong about those photoshopped pictures in the first place, are they?

Ok, the nitpicking in this thread is getting seriously out of control.


Do others get the same amount of criticism/nitpicking? I have a feeling I'm drawing in an unusual amount of it for some reason. Is it the LGBT related subject of the draft?

That said, if there is something I can improve upon, please tell me so I can better what needs bettering :)
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Daarwyrth » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:00 pm

So, any last commentaries or brief feedback before I submit the draft? :)
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Postby Trotterdam » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:03 am

Daarwyrth wrote:Do others get the same amount of criticism/nitpicking? I have a feeling I'm drawing in an unusual amount of it for some reason. Is it the LGBT related subject of the draft?
I still say it's the similarity to existing issues. We already have issues about homosexuality, about artists drawing offensive stuff, and about people photoshopping images of @@LEADER@@. Details that would be unimportant in a more original issue become rife for nitpicking when they're the only thing separating your draft from existing issues.

As for me, I've picked most of the nits that I care to, and in the end it's not up to me to decide whether your issue makes it into the game or not. I only really have one more to add: Even if @@LEADER@@ has no problems with homosexuals, and even if @@LEADER@@ actually is homosexual, he/she could still be legitimately peeved at being drawn kissing someone that is not, in fact, his/her lover.

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Postby Daarwyrth » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:06 am

Trotterdam wrote:
Daarwyrth wrote:Do others get the same amount of criticism/nitpicking? I have a feeling I'm drawing in an unusual amount of it for some reason. Is it the LGBT related subject of the draft?
I still say it's the similarity to existing issues. We already have issues about homosexuality, about artists drawing offensive stuff, and about people photoshopping images of @@LEADER@@. Details that would be unimportant in a more original issue become rife for nitpicking when they're the only thing separating your draft from existing issues.

As for me, I've picked most of the nits that I care to, and in the end it's not up to me to decide whether your issue makes it into the game or not. I only really have one more to add: Even if @@LEADER@@ has no problems with homosexuals, and even if @@LEADER@@ actually is homosexual, he/she could still be legitimately peeved at being drawn kissing someone that is not, in fact, his/her lover.


If there are that many similarities as you claim there are, I trust that the editors will point this out to me as well. From the feedback I got from them in this thread, I have tried to make this issue as distinct as possible and they even said that there aren't that many issues where there's lgbt vs homophobic status quo.

As for your last comment: again, player autonomy. I would have to assume @@LEADER@@ has a partner, which may or may not be the case for the player in question. It's why I have left it ambiguous, so as to protect player autonomy. The "How To Write Issues" articles clearly say not to assume too much about @@LEADER@@.
Last edited by Daarwyrth on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Sanctaria
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Postby Sanctaria » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:25 am

I don't think there's any serious overlap. Premise is fine.
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Frisbeeteria wrote:Do people not realize that moderators can tell when someone is wanking?

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