January 15th, 2024 - Europeia thread

[Guy]

Just as an FYI, Cormac since their suicide-by-mod has been using they/them pronouns, and would prefer that people refer to them as such. They understand though that it's difficult to disseminate that information while not playing, and having spent their entire time in the game presenting male, so no worries.

Regardless of the merits of your post, you're crossing into "posting on behalf of a DOS player" territory here - please don't do that.

If the post is meritorious, why should it draw moderator attention? Cormac is DoS, and for good reason. No one here is attempting to assist Cormac to regain influence within the game, or otherwise evade their ban, which is the purpose of the rule. “Please don’t misgender someone” is just basic civility, which is surely something that can be extended here. There is no harm from it.

I understand the desire not to extend the courtesy beyond this. I think everyone would’ve been comfortable if the message was “don’t go further than this in conveying anything from Cormac.”

[Sedgistan]

Regardless of the merits of your post, you're crossing into "posting on behalf of a DOS player" territory here - please don't do that.

If the post is meritorious, why should it draw moderator attention? Cormac is DoS, and for good reason. No one here is attempting to assist Cormac to regain influence within the game, or otherwise evade their ban, which is the purpose of the rule. “Please don’t misgender someone” is just basic civility, which is surely something that can be extended here. There is no harm from it.

I understand the desire not to extend the courtesy beyond this. I think everyone would’ve been comfortable if the message was “don’t go further than this in conveying anything from Cormac.”

There is a blanket prohibition on posting on behalf of banned players, as to permit that would undermine the ban. That applies even if the banned player has identified the meaning of life, devised a solution to world hunger, or has definitive proof whether the dress is blue or white.

Further discussion on this is off-topic. Take it to Moderation if you really have more to say on it.

[USS Merrimack]

I think there’s been a ramp up in posts that heavily blur the lines between OOC and IC issues that has made the game a bit less safe, and this is a great example of it. I can’t really see this as genuine concern for the community at large when it’s heavily tied into IC events like the MGC sanctions and the war at large. It reads like Koth is weaponizing OOC events for an IC reason and that is not good at all.

Regardless of intent or reasoning I don’t believe this message was delivered correctly or handled in a way that shows respect towards the victims or makes them any safer.

[Reventus Koth]

I think there’s been a ramp up in posts that heavily blur the lines between OOC and IC issues that has made the game a bit less safe, and this is a great example of it. I can’t really see this as genuine concern for the community at large when it’s heavily tied into IC events like the MGC sanctions and the war at large. It reads like Koth is weaponizing OOC events for an IC reason and that is not good at all.

Regardless of intent or reasoning I don’t believe this message was delivered correctly or handled in a way that shows respect towards the victims or makes them any safer.

I am a victim of Festavo's harassment. I was named by him in the logs that made Europeia admin ban him in the first place. I'll feel however I want to about this.

[Angeloid Astraea]

I think there’s been a ramp up in posts that heavily blur the lines between OOC and IC issues that has made the game a bit less safe, and this is a great example of it. I can’t really see this as genuine concern for the community at large when it’s heavily tied into IC events like the MGC sanctions and the war at large. It reads like Koth is weaponizing OOC events for an IC reason and that is not good at all.

Regardless of intent or reasoning I don’t believe this message was delivered correctly or handled in a way that shows respect towards the victims or makes them any safer.

Strong opinions on how the message was delivered! Now what are your opinions on the contents of the message? You didn't mention them.

[USS Merrimack]

I think there’s been a ramp up in posts that heavily blur the lines between OOC and IC issues that has made the game a bit less safe, and this is a great example of it. I can’t really see this as genuine concern for the community at large when it’s heavily tied into IC events like the MGC sanctions and the war at large. It reads like Koth is weaponizing OOC events for an IC reason and that is not good at all.

Regardless of intent or reasoning I don’t believe this message was delivered correctly or handled in a way that shows respect towards the victims or makes them any safer.

Strong opinions on how the message was delivered! Now what are your opinions on the contents of the message? You didn't mention them.

I think the overarching point I was making is that this isn’t the best forum to discuss this in, especially in a fluid situation, and especially when it’s being used as political fodder.

[Reventus Koth]

I think the overarching point I was making is that this isn’t the best forum to discuss this in, especially in a fluid situation, and especially when it’s being used as political fodder.

Why not, exactly? If Dionysus is a player that's supposed to be in good standing in a region that's in good standing, we should be able to talk about him here. His blacklisting was all over this forum, every region that banned him made an announcement about what he did and what they were doing about it. You are holding me to a standard that is not the one historically used by the Gameplay forum, and I do not appreciate what you are implying about me because of it. This is public information, I did nothing wrong by sharing it and sharing my extremely watered down take about it. Festavo's apology was supposed to be known. If you don't like the situation, take it up with the people who are responsible for it, not the people affected by it.

[Angeloid Astraea]

Strong opinions on how the message was delivered! Now what are your opinions on the contents of the message? You didn't mention them.

I think the overarching point I was making is that this isn’t the best forum to discuss this in, especially in a fluid situation, and especially when it’s being used as political fodder.

You had plenty of confidence when making public OOC commentary on Koth himself, but when making that same type of commentary about Europeia - the subject of this thread? That confidence vanished! You're so worried about mixing IC and OOC, maybe ask yourself why you're treating your IC ally differently than your IC enemy when the subject is OOC.

[USS Merrimack]

I think the overarching point I was making is that this isn’t the best forum to discuss this in, especially in a fluid situation, and especially when it’s being used as political fodder.

You had plenty of confidence when making public OOC commentary on Koth himself, but when making that same type of commentary about Europeia - the subject of this thread? That confidence vanished! You're so worried about mixing IC and OOC, maybe ask yourself why you're treating your IC ally differently than your IC enemy when the subject is OOC.

I’m calling out that Koth is using OOC occurrences and a very fluid and sensitive topic for IC reasons. Ask yourself why you feel comfortable using OOC events as a primer for IC attacks.

[Eternal Algerstonia]

what a shitty ass game this is

[Londoniopol]

Not a fan of the idea that every concern someoone expresses about a region can just be ignored due to it allegedly being an "IC attack".

When it comes to Europeia, I'm not surprirsed in the slightest that they did what they did. It's perfectly in line with the experiences that made us leave Europeia in the first place earlier last year for the sake of ourselves. Completely innapropriate, but not at all surprising at this point.

[Volstrostia]

You had plenty of confidence when making public OOC commentary on Koth himself, but when making that same type of commentary about Europeia - the subject of this thread? That confidence vanished! You're so worried about mixing IC and OOC, maybe ask yourself why you're treating your IC ally differently than your IC enemy when the subject is OOC.

I’m calling out that Koth is using OOC occurrences and a very fluid and sensitive topic for IC reasons. Ask yourself why you feel comfortable using OOC events as a primer for IC attacks.

I fail to see the relevance of the "IC reasons" you're alluding to here - Koth's concerns are OOCly relevant regardless of the circumstances of where who stands IC - the actions being called out here are no more or less fodder for criticism regardless of what side of a browser game the parties involved find themselves on - and the only blurring of IC and OOC I can see is Euro's behavior in the wake of these events.
If you're failing to see and acknowledge the OOC concerns being raised, and further believe that any OOC concern raised must have an IC agenda behind it, then I have to admit I am very skeptical of any criticism or commentary you have to offer on the topic.

[Angeloid Astraea]

You had plenty of confidence when making public OOC commentary on Koth himself, but when making that same type of commentary about Europeia - the subject of this thread? That confidence vanished! You're so worried about mixing IC and OOC, maybe ask yourself why you're treating your IC ally differently than your IC enemy when the subject is OOC.

I’m calling out that Koth is using OOC occurrences and a very fluid and sensitive topic for IC reasons. Ask yourself why you feel comfortable using OOC events as a primer for IC attacks.

Cutting to the chase, I think you'd rather talk about Koth than Europeia, and every post you make here is proving that.

[USS Merrimack]

I’m calling out that Koth is using OOC occurrences and a very fluid and sensitive topic for IC reasons. Ask yourself why you feel comfortable using OOC events as a primer for IC attacks.

Cutting to the chase, I think you'd rather talk about Koth than Europeia, and every post you make here is proving that.

Person wants to talk about specific issue they brought up, more news at 11.

[Angeloid Astraea]

Cutting to the chase, I think you'd rather talk about Koth than Europeia, and every post you make here is proving that.

Person wants to talk about specific issue they brought up, more news at 11.

Person that was hand-wringing about handling things "in a way that shows respect towards the victims" doesn't actually care what the victims want to talk about, news at 12.

[The Ambis]

Update to this:
Europeia has posted this

[Guy]

This is mostly a response to the ongoing discussion that I'm vaguely aware of, particularly on Euro's forums, but I'm piggybacking off Roavin's comment here.

On Festavo, I agree that redemption arcs should be possible. This is probably not the best way to go about it, but I can think of worse ways.

I think our basic instinct is similar: we both believe that people can change for the better. And we want to be able to extend to people the grace of another chance.

That being said, no one is owed a second chance by people and communities they hurt. A 'redemption arc', or a 'second chance', isn't for anyone, at any time, at any place.

When you fuck up badly in life, you should apologise. But you should not do so with the expectation that same person/community will give you a second chance. Sometimes, your redemption is knowing yourself that you are improving, that you are a better person, and doing better the next time.

Let us put things in perspective here: Festavo can go on with their life. They can join communities, in real life and online, that will welcome them with open arms. As a person, the redemption arc is wide open to them. NationStates, and Europeia, the people and communities hurt by their conduct, don't have to be part of that.

If you are worried that Festavo not being given another chance may mean you face similar consequences for past transgressions: I understand your concern, but it is misplaced. Festavo was banned in the first place for some atrocious conduct. I am quite confident you have not engaged in similar conduct here.

[Zerphen]

When you fuck up badly in life, you should apologise. But you should not do so with the expectation that same person/community will give you a second chance. Sometimes, your redemption is knowing yourself that you are improving, that you are a better person, and doing better the next time.

This is a bit off topic, but these are some beautiful words of wisdom and I am saving this for future reference.

[The Sapientia]

Consistently shocked by what I'm reading from the Euro thread Ambis linked. Festavo has most likely faced exactly zero real life ramifications for the absolutely hateful disgusting comments he repeated again and again in public and in private. Every "consequence" has contained to one niche browser game. Is it truly so bad if this one tiny subsection of the internet is inaccessible to him ever again?

"He deserves forgiveness, he deserves a second chance". Why? If he truly turned a new leaf and gave the heartfelt apology that the Euro admin team stated he did, why would he also think it's acceptable to try and lie his way into a community of people he has insulted and hurt? Deception and putting his own desires over the comfort of everyone else are not the actions of a newly reformed Dionysus but of the exact same hateful Festavo of the past.

By creating an alt account and rejoining NS Festavo is stating his enjoyment and want to play a political simulator is more important than the wellbeing and safety of not only the overall queer NS community but the specific people he targeted in his hatespeech- many of whom still are active in the game.

[MacEnthailand]

Third of all, McEntire, ancient veteran of Europeia since 2008 or so, posted her resignation from the region after a long and storied career.

"To Whom it May Concern,

The time has come for me to move on. Please consider this my resignation from the Europeian Senate, from citizenship in Europeia, and from any other Ministries, Commissions, and other positions.

This region and I are simply going in different directions. I hope that my departure hastens some long-overdue conversations around respect for minority viewpoints and the difficulty of being a woman-identifying player in this space. You see, it's not a coincidence that Asianatic and Paleomiz are long departed while the rest of the founding generation stay ensconced. It's not a coincidence that Mousebumples was viewed with suspicion and driven out of the perch of Supreme Chancellor. And it's not a coincidence that Icarus was undermined to the point of leaving after her term.

These experiences tell a story, if the region is willing to listen.

But I am no longer willing to try and be the storyteller. The time has come for me to depart. While I will hold some fond memories and remember a few friendships with love, on the whole this game has become an altogether negative experience for me. I have decided that I can no longer engage and spend my own valuable energy and time on Europeia.

I hope this region will grow into a kinder place, and I wish those remaining the best of luck.

Always with love,
The Rt. Hon. Mary Louise McEntire"

This sentiment comes a few short months after the departure of Icarus from Europeia, which McEntire references in her letter. Icarus' experiences with Europeia were the subject of a post in October whose contents speak for themselves and do not need my commentary. In response to McEntire's retirement, HEM predictably made it about himself and how much of a victim he is in this situation, demonstrating his usual cluelessness whenever someone tries to make him understand why his region keeps having this problem.

Hello! The aforementioned McEntire here. First of all, the pain that I expressed to my community should not be used as some sort of propaganda tool in an ongoing war. Europeia has its problems, but focus on the misogyny and mistreatment in your own community before trying to weaponize my words.

Second, I'm glad I left when I did, because this issue with Festavo is infuriating, and exactly the kind of thing that kept me sticking around so long, because there needed to be a counterweight to this foolishness. Now, as a stateless citizen free of domestic political pressures, I can and will speak my mind.

The admin team, and prominent Europeians who have formerly been admins, have made a whooooole bunch of tone-deaf statements in regards to this issue. HEM dismissing Fest's conduct because it wasn't in Euro, one referring to the trans citizens who voiced that the decision made them feel unsafe as "a bunch of angry people," another saying that Fest was "re-banned because of feelings." In this case, the admin team chose the worst of both worlds: they said that they believe that Fest had redeemed himself, but because of the protestations of members of the community they had reversed their decision.

This means that they chose to deflect the ire of those who disagreed with their flip-flop back on the marginalized people who were hurt by their original bad decision.

So it's just amazing that many in that region seem content to look past hate speech for the sake of "second chances" (when the offender has given nothing but a generic blanket apology). Amazingly, an admin team who have permabanned people for less could let someone who was long-term banned for hate speech sneak in under a false name and then, when revealed, would favor letting him stay?? And then, when questioned, they'd say that they basically stood by their original decision but the trans people were yelling at them so they had to give in.

Speaks to the sort of moral rot that's the very reason I left. And the fact that the community is up in arms about the rights of Festavo is... telling of what public opinion in that region is. Y'all go buy yourself tickets to some Louis CK shows or watch a Roseanne Barr special if you need to get your anti-cancel culture rage out, but don't make your own trans citizens feel unsafe.

Sending love and light to those left behind. You deserve better than this from your community.

[Reventus Koth]

Hello! The aforementioned McEntire here. First of all, the pain that I expressed to my community should not be used as some sort of propaganda tool in an ongoing war. Europeia has its problems, but focus on the misogyny and mistreatment in your own community before trying to weaponize my words.

Howdy, nice to meet you. I agree entirely that this matter should not be utilized in a propaganda war, which is why I'm not doing that. There is a strange idea going around that anything that comes out of my mouth is inherently in service to some IC war that I did not declare and do not place any value in. I didn't mention any region I was in, I did not post it in any region's thread, because it has nothing to do with that. I only wanted to make people aware of public information that was not posted on the Gameplay forum, and provided an incredibly mild commentary about it. I'm well within the bounds of accepted etiquette on this forum by doing so.

Additionally, if you think that there is "misogyny and mistreatment" in any community I have power in, please feel free to report it to me. Unless you have any specific matters in mind, I'm forced to interpret this as a weird gotcha. In any case, I'm not here to talk over women or have their stories come out of my mouth when they don't want it to, so I will absolutely let you speak for yourself and not bring you up on the forum again. The rest of your post is more important, so I'll leave this there.

[MacEnthailand]

Hello! The aforementioned McEntire here. First of all, the pain that I expressed to my community should not be used as some sort of propaganda tool in an ongoing war. Europeia has its problems, but focus on the misogyny and mistreatment in your own community before trying to weaponize my words.

Howdy, nice to meet you. I agree entirely that this matter should not be utilized in a propaganda war, which is why I'm not doing that. There is a strange idea going around that anything that comes out of my mouth is inherently in service to some IC war that I did not declare and do not place any value in. I didn't mention any region I was in, I did not post it in any region's thread, because it has nothing to do with that. I only wanted to make people aware of public information that was not posted on the Gameplay forum, and provided an incredibly mild commentary about it. I'm well within the bounds of accepted etiquette on this forum by doing so.

Additionally, if you think that there is "misogyny and mistreatment" in any community I have power in, please feel free to report it to me. Unless you have any specific matters in mind, I'm forced to interpret this as a weird gotcha. In any case, I'm not here to talk over women or have their stories come out of my mouth when they don't want it to, so I will absolutely let you speak for yourself and not bring you up on the forum again. The rest of your post is more important, so I'll leave this there.

I'm not trying to "getcha," I don't know you from Adam. I just know of your existing beef with Euro and don't want my words to be taken as part of that.

[DI0NYSUS]

I just want to make it clear that I will not be returning to NationStates. The community wishes for me to stay away, so I will abide by that. I am glad that at the very least this debacle allowed me to try to apologize for the past. You are all welcome to continue the discourse here, but my part in this situation has concluded. Farewell, all.

[Altasund]

This is mildly depressing. As much as I want to add this to my "reasons to dislike Europeia" it feels fairly clear that, for all their failings in this, it's a case of people acting with the best of intentions but coming to the wrong conclusions. It's encouraging to see that some transphobes can re-evaluate their transphobia, and I can see why Europeia's admins may have wanted to accept that change of heart, but I suppose one thing that's been made abundantly clear - ignoring the issue of them joining an NS community under false pretenses - is that when someone's done such horrific things, you can't just assume it's fine to welcome them back into a space where their victims are still present.
Potentially the thing I've read from this that most concerned me was HEM's defence that "the behavior that resulted in the ban did not take place within Europeia" makes it more acceptable. I understand he's already received pushback for this - phrased more eloquently than I could ever hope to do - but it did slightly horrify me that an admin thought admitting someone into a major GP community who had the potential to retraumatise people in the wider GP community was fine because it wouldn't affect anyone HEM's directly responsible for - hopefully he now recognises that decisions made in Europeia will have ripple effects throughout NS. And hopefully other admins can learn from that mistake.

I'd thought about whether or not I should post anything - whether I have anything worth contributing to this conversation - but I guess I decided to mostly because I want to express how, given the many times I've been exposed to blatant transphobia on this website, and seen transphobes permitted to spew filth that could convince other people of their beliefs, it's kinda nice to see someone who's gone the opposite direction. I hope the change of heart is genuine.

Edit: while I'm here, I'd like to say thanks to both Koth and McEntire for raising the misogyny discussion: I hadn't seen Icarus's post previously, and it's helped solidify and put into words some of the vague things that'd been floating around my head. I also hadn't encountered Project Moirai before, so yeah. Thanks.

[MacEnthailand]

Welp, Euro has lost two more prominent trans citizens - including its Senate Speaker - over the Festavo issue. SAD!