Embassy of The East Pacific: March Issue is Out Now!

[Quebecshire]

Good on TEP. Glad to see more people put their foot down on this.

[Andusre]

The East Pacific never fails to be an amazing ally. Thank you ♥️

[Tinhampton]

Are the sanctions applied with reference to Section 1.4 in particular (or indeed any other section) of the EPSA Act?

[Aivintis]

Are the sanctions applied with reference to Section 1.4 in particular (or indeed any other section) of the EPSA Act?

Clause 1.4 is just organization of EPSA - so like ranks, command structure, discord server, that sort of administrative stuff. Sanctions like these are extensions of 2.1, which states that the EPSA is “permitted to execute defensive and/or offensive operations sanctioned by the Delegate, the Overseeing Officer, or any executive appointee thereto”. The application here would be that operations involving the JTF would be automatically not sanctioned by The Delegate, as the highest authority in the EPSA, and the current OO, as the second highest authority, and so the EPSA is not permitted to execute such operations as described in this statement unless otherwise stated by the Delegate, OO, or any executive appointee thereof.

I’m so glad someone asked about a law I wrote, I feel so special.

[The Atlae Isles]

Are the sanctions applied with reference to Section 1.4 in particular (or indeed any other section) of the EPSA Act?

Section 1.4 is the section that says that the Delegate and the OO can run the EPSA as they see fit, so in that whenever we do things in the EPSA, 1.4 is invoked.

[Aivintis]

Are the sanctions applied with reference to Section 1.4 in particular (or indeed any other section) of the EPSA Act?

Section 1.4 is the section that says that the Delegate and the OO can run the EPSA as they see fit, so in that whenever we do things in the EPSA, 1.4 is invoked.

In a way, kind of, yeah, but basically I see it as the same “Delegate and OO can do what they want (subject to the provisions of the act” attitude but with justification from 2.1 instead of 1.4, since 2.1 explicitly is about that authority in regards to the operations EPSA conducts.

EDIT: For context, we posted without knowledge of the other’s post, and the only real definitive authority on this would be Conclave via an advisory question or judicial review, so either interpretation is valid.

[Varanius]

Oh no, I’m sure the JTF will be very hurt without….TEP

[Matthew the Man]

Oh no, I’m sure the JTF will be very hurt without….TEP

Oh no, I'm sure that you'll come to understand that statements of support don't always need to be entirely tangible actions that will affect major consequence. It is almost as if taking a stand in of itself is a sign of solidarity, as opposed to punishment. But who knows, I surely wouldn't! After all, I fell for the bait that is any take that Vara has.

[Cormactopia Prime]

This could be asked in a couple places, but I'll just ask it here:

Can someone explain to me why, if what August said is so bad (I agree it is), it's okay to defend alongside the JTF but not to invade alongside the JTF? Mind you, I'm not suggesting you should invade alongside them -- I'm rather suggesting you should do nothing whatsoever with them. Surely if TEP, Thaecia, and The League all refused to work alongside JTF over this, they would be expelled from Libcord? Is there a reason defending is deemed special and exempted here?

I'm also curious why no sanctions are being imposed on the URA. It was, after all, the URA server where this took place, it was the URA that issued the recommendation against with the quote included, etc. Unless the URA intends to take action against the AA regions, which currently dominate its membership anyway, why are they being spared? Seems like a huge oversight if the goal is to impose sanctions on the AA for August's misconduct.

I really feel like if you're going to insist this was OOC misconduct worthy of sanctions, those sanctions ought to be consistently applied. I'm not seeing consistency in the exemption for defending, nor in declining to apply any sanctions to the URA. This is a criticism that could just as easily be made of Thaecia and The League, by the way, I just wasn't going to bring up the same issue in three threads. So nothing specifically against TEP here, it's a good question for anyone taking similar steps.

[Sandaoguo]

Can someone explain to me why, if what August said is so bad (I agree it is), it's okay to defend alongside the JTF but not to invade alongside the JTF?

Because defenderdom is back to believing the overriding objective of foreign policy is securing the participation of independent/non-aligned military forces for defense ops, everything else comes secondary.

What I'm confused about in this (what appears to be) coordinated diplomatic sanction saga is why JTF, being the target of these sanctions, would continue defending with Libcord at all? The expectation here seems to be that JTF behaves as two separate bodies, and it's possible to diplomatically sanction the raiding side while remaining cooperative and friendly with the defending side. Is that how JTF works? Strange new era of foreign affairs, I guess.

[Quebecshire]

This could be asked in a couple places, but I'll just ask it here:

Can someone explain to me why, if what August said is so bad (I agree it is), it's okay to defend alongside the JTF but not to invade alongside the JTF? ...

My perspective is that it's a different space under a Libcord umbrella. Plenty of militaries that don't get along function in there at times. It is significantly different to accepting an invitation to specifically work alongside the JTF or to invite them to a bi/multi-lateral operation.

Can someone explain to me why, if what August said is so bad (I agree it is), it's okay to defend alongside the JTF but not to invade alongside the JTF?

Because defenderdom is back to believing the overriding objective of foreign policy is securing the participation of independent/non-aligned military forces for defense ops, everything else comes secondary.

You are an armchair and your ill-informed opinions on the day-to-day operations of defending are not credible nor relevant. Please consider stopping.

[Sandaoguo]

You are an armchair and your ill-informed opinions on the day-to-day operations of defending are not credible nor relevant. Please consider stopping.

You're no the first to say this to me thinking it hurts my feelings, in case you might think this is a deep cut <3

I may not be some R/D grunt, but I do indeed have quite a bit of experience in diplomacy in this game. And these sanctions do not make any sense. Either TEP, Thaecia, and The League are trying to punish JTF, or you're not because you still want to work with them. The explanations I've seen so far are that JTF is going to switch over to raiding for a month anyways, and now that Libcord is full of militaries that "don't get along" so there's no issue preventing JTF from defending via Libcord.

It's hard to see what the purpose of these sanctions is, then? They are being billed as both important for and inconsequential to defender interests-- they are a damning admonishment of JTF, while not impacting the prospects of continuing to run ops with them on the normal day-to-day. It seems like an attempt to have your cake and eat it too. And so I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering just what the consequences for JTF are, here, and whether or not these sanctions are actually supposed to be viewed as a real punishment and taken seriously. Like, come October, is the idea here that JTF is still going to be appearing alongside TEP, Thaecia, The League, and whoever else imposes identical sanctions, in defender op updates.. as if nothing of consequence happened?

[Matthew the Man]

Hey glen what sorta pot are you smoking, I too would love to get involved if it makes my critical thinking comprehension drop to rock bottom and ego swell to unimaginable heights. Or at least, I think you’re smoking pot since the alternative is just a comedically bad “opinion” akin to that of a clown act at a circus.

[Wascoitan]

My perspective is that it's a different space under a Libcord umbrella. Plenty of militaries that don't get along function in there at times.

I feel like that's different though no? as far as I am aware so far none of the military's that work together in libcord have had OOC problems as big as one of their leaders comparing another leader to doxers and fascist. just feels weird that one would be willing to work with the people whose leader compared a respected member of the GP community to some of the worst people imaginable (then as you yourself pointed out doubled down on that comparison when they were called out) just because it happens to be under the libcord umbrella. really just feels like some weird attempt to intentionally apply sanctions in a way that only damages raiding while doing no damage to defending (to be clear here I agree with not raiding with them until some sort of apology is issued, and I will be making sure to do so myself, august went way too far), and I genuinely hope that isn't what this is cause that would be a pretty major issue of putting IC above OOC imo, but it just feels like that's what you're trying to make happen here.

[Quebecshire]

I might reply to some other stuff later but I want to touch on this first

My perspective is that it's a different space under a Libcord umbrella. Plenty of militaries that don't get along function in there at times.

I feel like that's different though no? as far as I am aware so far none of the military's that work together in libcord have had OOC problems as big as one of their leaders comparing another leader to doxers and fascist. just feels weird that one would be willing to work with the people whose leader compared a respected member of the GP community to some of the worst people imaginable (then as you yourself pointed out doubled down on that comparison when they were called out) just because it happens to be under the libcord umbrella. really just feels like some weird attempt to intentionally apply sanctions in a way that only damages raiding while doing no damage to defending (to be clear here I agree with not raiding with them until some sort of apology is issued, and I will be making sure to do so myself, august went way too far), and I genuinely hope that isn't what this is cause that would be a pretty major issue of putting IC above OOC imo, but it just feels like that's what you're trying to make happen here.

Our sanctions were based on Thaecia’s. It would be unnecessary to go beyond what Thaecia, the victims of the issue here, see as appropriate. The LDF is prepared to choose Thaecia over the JTF in full if it comes down to it. Our sanctions really aren’t any more lenient than Thaecia’s, and I doubt you’d accuse Thaecia of trying to use this situation to hurt raiding for defending’s benefit.

[Wascoitan]

I might reply to some other stuff later but I want to touch on this first

I feel like that's different though no? as far as I am aware so far none of the military's that work together in libcord have had OOC problems as big as one of their leaders comparing another leader to doxers and fascist. just feels weird that one would be willing to work with the people whose leader compared a respected member of the GP community to some of the worst people imaginable (then as you yourself pointed out doubled down on that comparison when they were called out) just because it happens to be under the libcord umbrella. really just feels like some weird attempt to intentionally apply sanctions in a way that only damages raiding while doing no damage to defending (to be clear here I agree with not raiding with them until some sort of apology is issued, and I will be making sure to do so myself, august went way too far), and I genuinely hope that isn't what this is cause that would be a pretty major issue of putting IC above OOC imo, but it just feels like that's what you're trying to make happen here.

Our sanctions were based on Thaecia’s. It would be unnecessary to go beyond what Thaecia, the victims of the issue here, see as appropriate. The LDF is prepared to choose Thaecia over the JTF in full if it comes down to it. Our sanctions really aren’t any more lenient than Thaecia’s, and I doubt you’d accuse Thaecia of trying to use this situation to hurt raiding for defending’s benefit.

I feel like there is a big difference between the sanctions thaecia, an independent org that actually does raiding fairly often, and the league which is a defender org, should be using if they want to have an actual effective punishment. for thaecia, while I do still think they shouldn't work with them period, it is still some sort of a punishment to just focus on raiding because they actually do that fairly often, while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions, so all your sanctions really do is prevent getting JTF from working with you on fighting regions that we all agree should be fought. so sure, while technically on a "what are the exact sanctions we put on them" level your sanctions aren't anymore lenient, on a more actual effect on JTF as an org, it's basically nothing.

[Quebecshire]

while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions

This is inaccurate.

Beyond that, I don’t feel compelled to say anything beyond the fact that the LDF is prepared to back up Thaecia but does not see a reason to go beyond what they feel appropriate.

[Wascoitan]

while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions

This is inaccurate.

is it? I genuinely thought that was your general policy, but if it isn't then please do point me to the last time you raided a non-OOC problematic region. (not trying to do a gotcha here I'm just genuinely curious)

[Quebecshire]

This is inaccurate.

is it? I genuinely thought that was your general policy, but if it isn't then please do point me to the last time you raided a non-OOC problematic region. (not trying to do a gotcha here I'm just genuinely curious)

The first thing to come to mind is that we tagged chicken nuggets with TGW and are otherwise willing to act offensively against invader regions.

[Wascoitan]

is it? I genuinely thought that was your general policy, but if it isn't then please do point me to the last time you raided a non-OOC problematic region. (not trying to do a gotcha here I'm just genuinely curious)

The first thing to come to mind is that we tagged chicken nuggets with TGW and are otherwise willing to act offensively against invader regions.

hmm, alright then I guess correction, "while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions or an invader region" feel like that doesn't really change my overall point though that the league raids so little that to only sanction JTF on offensive operations does basically nothing to JTF.

[Quebecshire]

The first thing to come to mind is that we tagged chicken nuggets with TGW and are otherwise willing to act offensively against invader regions.

hmm, alright then I guess correction, "while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions or an invader region" feel like that doesn't really change my overall point though that the league raids so little that to only sanction JTF on offensive operations does basically nothing to JTF.

Again, the sanctions exist to concur with Thaecia's sanctions and demands as we feel they are the rational actors here. It's to impose the same restrictions and to say "hey, the JTF isn't welcome at the things we organize anymore" - given that our prior offensive cooperation included things we put together. As specified in our statement, our sanctions will be adjusted or escalated as the situation develops if it becomes necessary. You are free to have further opinions, but that is the reality of the situation.

[Wascoitan]

hmm, alright then I guess correction, "while the league on the other hand only raids when it's against OOC problematic regions or an invader region" feel like that doesn't really change my overall point though that the league raids so little that to only sanction JTF on offensive operations does basically nothing to JTF.

Again, the sanctions exist to concur with Thaecia's sanctions and demands as we feel they are the rational actors here. It's to impose the same restrictions and to say "hey, the JTF isn't welcome at the things we organize anymore" - given that our prior offensive cooperation included things we put together. As specified in our statement, our sanctions will be adjusted or escalated as the situation develops if it becomes necessary. You are free to have further opinions, but that is the reality of the situation.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯, fair enough I guess, if your goal is just to put down the exact same sanctions as thaecia no matter how different your orgs might be, then you did do that. and I will of course give you credit for coming to their defense, even if I don't think your punishments were as harsh as thaecia's (as you seem to be trying to imply) given the actual effect they will have in your org, it is still better than had you just done nothing, regardless of any of this hopefully JTF or august will see reason and apologize for their words making all of this discussion meaningless.

[Sandaoguo]

Hey glen what sorta pot are you smoking, I too would love to get involved if it makes my critical thinking comprehension drop to rock bottom and ego swell to unimaginable heights. Or at least, I think you’re smoking pot since the alternative is just a comedically bad “opinion” akin to that of a clown act at a circus.

I don’t know who are you to even be offended by this. But anyways, I’m genuinely curious what the sanctioners are thinking JTF’s response to this should be. JTF is being being told, “We’re so mad, we’re gonna keep defending with you.” If I was leading the JTF, I wouldn’t know whether to take these sanctions seriously and respond in kind diplomatically, or just continue on as if nothing happened because the regions sanctioning my military fully intend to keep on working with us anyways.

The strategy here is difficult to understand, unless the goal is to only *appear* as if JTF is being diplomatically punished, while minimizing any actual negative consequences (to defending, at least) since JTF is a source of soldiers. Come October, what will the impact on JTF be? If the day to day has not changed, then the impact was zero. Like, August has not retracted anything and there’s no indication (yet, we’ll see) that either AA or JTF plan on doing anything to placate Thaecia. (And I don’t see any reason why they should feel pressured to do so, since these sanctions won’t impact them much. If they’re already planning on raiding for the next month, having people defending against their raids is kind of baked in there.)

So what’s the end game? I need enlightenment, since I’m a circus clown bozo who doesn’t know anything.

[RiderSyl]

Please stop making me agree with Glen-Rhodes.

[Quebecshire]

I don’t know who are you to even be offended by this.

As his signature indicates, he is Matthew, Warden-Constable of The Order of the Grey Wardens.

But anyways, I’m genuinely curious what the sanctioners are thinking JTF’s response to this should be. JTF is being being told, “We’re so mad, we’re gonna keep defending with you.”

That's a funny way of interpreting "we will no longer welcome you at our ops nor do offensive things with you, and depending on how this goes, our sanctions may be broadened or escalated."

The strategy here is difficult to understand

I don't think this is a true. I have another theory. It's the "glen is starting shit to start shit" theory.

unless the goal is to only *appear* as if JTF is being diplomatically punished, while minimizing any actual negative consequences (to defending, at least) since JTF is a source of soldiers.

The objective of the sanctions is clearly to punish the JTF. While I can't speak for EPSA and THA, they clearly contribute a bit to occupations and this decision would likely ostracize the JTF from raids. Nobody in their right mind will pick the JTF over EPSA and Thaecia.

Come October, what will the impact on JTF be? If the day to day has not changed, then the impact was zero.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, huh? I look forward to finding out the answers.

If they’re already planning on raiding for the next month, having people defending against their raids is kind of baked in there.)

And there is now a direct statement from Thaecia that they will defend any JTF tags/quorum raids and liberate any occupation the JTF is present at, as well as EPSA refusing to work with them. Do you really think this won't impact them and any raiding aspirations?

I need enlightenment

Clearly.