Lazarene Government - The State Of The Union

[Glen-Rhodes]

There goes the point flying over your head Cormac.

Delegate supremacy isn't relevant here, nor is it a solution to anything. If The Pacific was usurped and the Delegate demanded to be the root of the NPO's forum (and then delete it), I find it hard to believe that Pierconium would be on here saying, "Oh well geez, that is his right. We must fork over the forum and let it be erased. Delegate supremacy!" while 125k posts worth of Pacifican history is destroyed by the Delegate.

You can't untie Funk's coup from the fact that he controls Lazarus's offsite community. It's not being Delegate that's giving him power of the community's history-- it's being the root admin of their forums. If the resistance unseats Funk, Delegate supremacy isn't going to save 67,000 posts and years of history. That's why it's a flawed argument to make here. If Delegate supremacy is what matters, then we would expect that Funk would hand over the forums to whoever replaces him in that spot. But we all know that's probably not going to happen, if he loses this coup. So, again, what's the point of pushing Delegate supremacy or basing your opinion of the coup on it?

[Guy]

This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.

Eh, I'll have to disagree with you there, Len - coup =/= offsite property destruction, and the latter is considered one of the worst things that can be done by a NS player (look up the COPS treaty and why it was created if you are interested in the history). Plenty of forums from failed governments, either due to failed coups or from the previous government after a successful coup, are still online, usually in a read-only fashion; I'd assume Discord servers would (and should) be treated in a similar fashion.

Now, could Funk technically do that? Sure. Would he? Very unlikely, and I wouldn't accuse him of doing so.

I agree with Roavin.

Funk has shown a willingness to undermine the democratic governance of Lazarus, and coup it for his own end. That doesn't usually lead to forum destruction, and so it can't be said Funk has the tendency to do things of a similar nature to forum destruction.

[Glaciosia]

The Illuminati Alliance
Ravana - Elysia - Argonia - Lavathia - Machina - Soterya

Over the course of the conflict within the region of Lazarus , many wrongs have been made, and friendships shattered. No side is without fault and none are innocent. The arguments for and against each side are numerous, but certain factors must carry a heavier weight to us.
We, Illuminati Alliance desire peace and normalcy in the region, but we cannot avoid the great overstepping of boundaries and norms by the Lazerian Delegate and their supporters . Thus , we are obligated to support the Government in Exile of Lazarus in the conflict. All realms will assist the Government in their struggle, including the military and diplomatic services of Machina and Elysia, respectively.
Signed

Grand Chancellor of the Illuminati Alliance Ezaro Revera
King Glaciosia of Elysia , Realm of Commorancy and Diplomacy
King RolandArmstrong of Machina, Realm of Defense

[Cormactopia Prime]

Eh, I'll have to disagree with you there, Len - coup =/= offsite property destruction, and the latter is considered one of the worst things that can be done by a NS player (look up the COPS treaty and why it was created if you are interested in the history). Plenty of forums from failed governments, either due to failed coups or from the previous government after a successful coup, are still online, usually in a read-only fashion; I'd assume Discord servers would (and should) be treated in a similar fashion.

Now, could Funk technically do that? Sure. Would he? Very unlikely, and I wouldn't accuse him of doing so.

I agree with Roavin.

Funk has shown a willingness to undermine the democratic governance of Lazarus, and coup it for his own end. That doesn't usually lead to forum destruction, and so it can't be said Funk has the tendency to do things of a similar nature to forum destruction.

Do you agree with Roavin? Because on the Rejected Realms Discord server, you just accused me of forum destruction being in my character -- despite five years in this game and constantly opposing forum destruction -- and then called me "unstable." So it seems like really you agree more with Glen-Rhodes and Lenlyvit that it's fine to baselessly accuse others of future forum destruction, and then question their OOC mental health (which is a step further than even they went), because you don't like their gameplay style or politics. That doesn't sound like agreeing with Roavin at all.

[Pierconium]

There goes the point flying over your head Cormac.

Delegate supremacy isn't relevant here, nor is it a solution to anything. If The Pacific was usurped and the Delegate demanded to be the root of the NPO's forum (and then delete it), I find it hard to believe that Pierconium would be on here saying, "Oh well geez, that is his right. We must fork over the forum and let it be erased. Delegate supremacy!" while 125k posts worth of Pacifican history is destroyed by the Delegate.

You can't untie Funk's coup from the fact that he controls Lazarus's offsite community. It's not being Delegate that's giving him power of the community's history-- it's being the root admin of their forums. If the resistance unseats Funk, Delegate supremacy isn't going to save 67,000 posts and years of history. That's why it's a flawed argument to make here. If Delegate supremacy is what matters, then we would expect that Funk would hand over the forums to whoever replaces him in that spot. But we all know that's probably not going to happen, if he loses this coup. So, again, what's the point of pushing Delegate supremacy or basing your opinion of the coup on it?

No, I wouldn't be happy to let a new Delegate that wasn't NPO take over the offsite forum. Hell, I've had problems in the past with people who were NPO taking control of the offsite forum.

But that isn't the situation here. While it is generally frowned upon to delete forums, and I do not believe Funk would do such a thing, he is the ROOT. It is his perogative.

People that have been in much more contentious 'wars' than what is shaping up in Lazarus have successfully maintained the offsite forums from their governments in other regions. I seem to recall this one guy in TNP that let his forum go read-only and it is listed as one of the historical governmental forums by the current regime.

Disagreeing over gameplay matters and who is currently in control of the Delegacy doesn't have to be an OOC ordeal. Some people will undoubtedly get butt hurt and take things too far, that's life, but at the end of the day our ones and zeroes all come from the same place.

[Guy]

I agree with Roavin.

Funk has shown a willingness to undermine the democratic governance of Lazarus, and coup it for his own end. That doesn't usually lead to forum destruction, and so it can't be said Funk has the tendency to do things of a similar nature to forum destruction.

Do you agree with Roavin? Because on the Rejected Realms Discord server, you just accused me of forum destruction being in my character -- despite five years in this game and constantly opposing forum destruction -- and then called me "unstable." So it seems like really you agree more with Glen-Rhodes and Lenlyvit that it's fine to baselessly accuse others of future forum destruction, and then question their OOC mental health (which is a step further than even they went), because you don't like their gameplay style or politics. That doesn't sound like agreeing with Roavin at all.

I should not have made the claim that you are 'unstable'. I lost my cool and used language that was inappropriate.

As for the rest of it, I'll reiterate that there is no evidence, in my opinion, to suggest that Funk is likely to destroy Lazarus' forum.

[Royal Atlantean State]

I'll just leave these here

[Unibot III]

Galiantus, I'll be the evil moralist and respond to your philosophical question:

The problem of legitimacy in GCRs is not a unique problem in political philosophy - it's a question as old as Thomas Hobbes. GCR states derive their legitimacy from the consent of the governed. Every state promises something to their citizens: their legitimacy is contractual, it poses responsibilities to its residents. The NPO promises order and stability for its residents, democracies like TSP, TNP, TRR and Lazarus promise a free and equal society with rights, freedoms, political and legal equality and a popular sovereign. Unilaterally, these contracts cannot be neglected, abrogated or superceded legitimately.

That's a fancy way of saying a democracy owes its legitimacy to its democracy. Violate that legal order and you're acting without legitimacy.

[Solorni]

Compared to other democratic regions like Balder, Lazarus obviously does not have the same rights for its citizens. Considering how its legal to purge people like Griffyn & Harmoneia... does not strike me as a region based on the same legal rights as other democratic ones.

[The NAtion OF Froggy]

Compared to other democratic regions like Balder, Lazarus obviously does not have the same rights for its citizens. Considering how its legal to purge people like Griffyn & Harmoneia... does not strike me as a region based on the same legal rights as other democratic ones.

Then it all comes down to the interruption of the the laws that form the democracy, its why I don't see the point of trying to compare democratic states but then again if you don't compare you really have no need for discussion. The sticky wickets, abound.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Disagreeing over gameplay matters and who is currently in control of the Delegacy doesn't have to be an OOC ordeal. Some people will undoubtedly get butt hurt and take things too far, that's life, but at the end of the day our ones and zeroes all come from the same place.

Exactly, people blow up and go too far, especially when they lose. Funk has pulled the trigger on the most extreme political fight you can have in a GCR. Those sitting there, including my buddy and pal Roavin, are being naive if they think there's no danger of forum destruction. There ALWAYS is when the couper owns the forum.

I'll be the first to bet that the forum will be used a threat or bargaining chip if the resistance appears close to succeeding. Cormac can gasp as much as he wants about that.

[The Church of Satan]

Am I the only one surprised to see Rach using Harmeonia's ejection as an example of inequality? Just saying.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Exactly, people blow up and go too far, especially when they lose. Funk has pulled the trigger on the most extreme political fight you can have in a GCR. Those sitting there, including my buddy and pal Roavin, are being naive if they think there's no danger of forum destruction. There ALWAYS is when the couper owns the forum.

I'll be the first to bet that the forum will be used a threat or bargaining chip if the resistance appears close to succeeding. Cormac can gasp as much as he wants about that.

If you're going to continue these malicious personal attacks based on nothing except your own assumptions, the so-called "resistance" should expel you and the South Pacific should find a way to silence you. You're doing nothing but hurting their cause and alienating potential allies who won't want to be associated with your extremism. The "resistance" might as well just fold right now if they're going to give you free reign to act like this.

[Solorni]

Am I the only one surprised to see Rach using Harmeonia's ejection as an example of inequality? Just saying.

Inequality is the wrong word here. People can have equal weak legal rights. So it isn't about equal legal rights but having strong legal rights. This is something strong democratic states are founded upon. Obviously that is not something Lazarus has had. This is the state that defenders have built and upheld in Lazarus.

[Lenlyvit]

This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.

That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.

Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?

Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?

You see, I'm not very good at stating my oppinion, apologies for that. I'm not saying he will destroy the forums, just that its possible. And if I was suggesting that last bit Cormac, that would include you, but Roavin has corrected me on that. I'm not suggesting anything about Funk, you, or anyone else who has ever couped a region. I have my disagreements with Funk, and will fight this coup with everything I have. So please, don't attack my moral character when I have not attacked yours. I don't support Glen, whoever that nation is, because I don't know who they are.

[Solorni]

Isn't it possible anyone will delete the forums they have adminship over?

[Roavin]

Isn't it possible anyone will delete the forums they have adminship over?

Pretty much, so unless there's a very specific reason to believe a root may do so, it's probably a moot discussion tbh - my 2 cents on this particular tangent.

[New Rogernomics]

This is rich, coming from you Cormac. A person, if I remember correctly, who said that Funk would never coup Lazarus because "its not in his character". Heads up, in case your head is burried in the sand still, FUNK COUPED LAZARUS. If he destroys the forums and discord as well, then it would indeed be "in his character". Look around before saying stuff like this.

That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.

Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?

Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?

Don't want to be dragged into this. What I said is that it 'would not be in his character to coup', not Funk could not coup. The contention would be whether this was a 'coup' or not, if it was a 'coup' then up till now it wasn't in his nature. I retired from Lazarus earlier in the year, so I wasn't up to date on all the gossip.

Optimism isn't a crime however, I really hoped that the region could avoid a confrontation over the Delegacy.

It is a sad day for Lazarus. I can't honestly take any joy in the old guard tearing itself apart, and people turning on each other. I don't know if Lazarus will ever be the same now, it might likely not be any region I remember.

First Lazarus lost NES and others in the PRL or PRL 'coup', and now we have lost Harmoneia and others in recent events.

For me it isn't a question of what people did wrong, but losing people from the community.

PS: No one has suggested forum destruction, the forum has been re-instated on the WFE and still exists.

[Lazarene Lenlyvit]

That was New Rogernomics. I've been urging Funkadelia to do exactly what he's doing since pretty much the beginning of this crisis, so I wouldn't have said he wouldn't do it while urging him to do it. Get your facts straight if you're going to make accusations.

Should I assume though that you support Glen-Rhodes in suggesting Funkadelia would destroy the Lazarus forum in the future? It's important for the world to know what kind of people they will be supporting if they support the "government-in-exile" and their allies. Do you stand by that smear?

Are you further suggesting that it is in the character of anyone who has ever couped to destroy a forum?

Don't want to be dragged into this. What I said is that it 'would not be in his character to coup', not Funk could not coup. The contention would be whether this was a 'coup' or not, if it was a 'coup' then up till now it wasn't in his nature. I retired from Lazarus earlier in the year, so I wasn't up to date on all the gossip.

Optimism isn't a crime however, I really hoped that the region could avoid a confrontation over the Delegacy.

It is a sad day for Lazarus. I can't honestly take any joy in the old guard tearing itself apart, and people turning on each other. I don't know if Lazarus will ever be the same now, it might likely not be any region I remember.

First Lazarus lost NES and others in the PRL or PRL 'coup', and now we have lost Harmoneia and others in recent events.

For me it isn't a question of what people did wrong, but losing people from the community.

PS: No one has suggested forum destruction, the forum has been re-instated on the WFE and still exists.

Yes, a forum where 90% of the active community in Lazarus cannot post due to Funk taking away our privileges there.

[The Church of Satan]

Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?

[Pentaga Giudici]

Funk has several and likely more nations that showed up in the last three days to vote for him. Brand new nations in a Sinker, something is horribly wrong.

[Kanglia]

I would like to publicly state that FORGE is in full support of the Lazarene exiled government. We offer our support to all of those illegally and wrongfully dismissed in the coup.

[Galiantus VII]

Galiantus, I'll be the evil moralist and respond to your philosophical question:

The problem of legitimacy in GCRs is not a unique problem in political philosophy - it's a question as old as Thomas Hobbes. GCR states derive their legitimacy from the consent of the governed. Every state promises something to their citizens: their legitimacy is contractual, it poses responsibilities to its residents. The NPO promises order and stability for its residents, democracies like TSP, TNP, TRR and Lazarus promise a free and equal society with rights, freedoms, political and legal equality and a popular sovereign. Unilaterally, these contracts cannot be neglected, abrogated or superceded legitimately.

That's a fancy way of saying a democracy owes its legitimacy to its democracy. Violate that legal order and you're acting without legitimacy.

I actually appreciate the commentary on philosophy and morals. You have a very diplomatic air about you and it is always a pleasure to have your opinion on gameplay matters.

UCRs exist primarily as a vehicle to accomplish some goal. The region itself is typically not the goal, as is the case with GCRs. That is why there is so much more depth and ambiguity to GCR politics, and why those with clear visions tend to look outside the GCRs for means to their ends. So who is left to tend to GCRs? Those seeking power, and the ignorant.

Yes, the ignorant. This is an education problem if there ever was one. Your average new nation enters NationStates with absolutely no concept of gameplay politics, no understanding of what a region is, and is bombarded with spam from the most ambitious regions in the game. They came for a nation simulator - not whatever they're seeing now. Most of them don't move. Why should they? They have a nice, big region. Seems like there's a lot going on. Then they're told "join the WA" "endorse our delegate" "our region is in danger if you don't endorse these people".

They have no context, no understanding. Blindly, they do what they are told, because they have this sense there is something out there they don't understand; something that wants to get their region and change their world in some way they can't quite grasp. Through fear, the masses are manipulated to become the trusses which support regimes they truely know nothing of. Ironically, there is practically no danger to the life of a mere issue-answerer: no one is going to kick them out, just so long as they never appear to pose a threat to the new successful coup in town.

So in practice, we are expecting children to be capable of consent. All of us, here, on this thread, can understand the implications of the things happening in Lazarus. But those outcomes are vague and meaningless - platitudes at best - to your average player. If every player on NationStates thought like a gameplayer, you would be absolutely right. Why? Because then the only people willing to spend time in the Pacific in such a world would be those who love the NPO structure of government and those seeking to bring the region to its knees. But that is not the case. Your average resident 1) doesn't participate in the online forums, 2) doesn't question the status quo of the region, and 3) doesn't care who is in charge of the region. The only place I can think of a GCR that can fit what you are saying in a meaningful way would be the warzones - and they aren't exactly juggernauts of political power.

To bring this back to Lazarus, I would say we are seeing the results of this general ignorance among the average player pan out as usual. If every resident of Lazarus both understood and really cared about the direction Lazarus may be headed, I expect you would see a pretty quick response from the general citizenry to get a stand-in delegate until this could be sorted out. Unfortunately, only those involved in the government have any idea what is going on, and most citizens have even less of an idea what to make of this mess than some of the most ill-informed gameplayers out there. Any "decisions" made will be based more on emotion and perceived danger than on raw facts and data.

That's about all the ramblings I have for now (and good thing too: I need to go to bed).

[Cormactopia Prime]

Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?

I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.

[Senator Elegarth]

Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?

I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.

If evidence came showing that both sides have done an equal amount of things outside of the law, which side would you support?