NationStates

Drop Your Pants wrote:

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Why didn't y'all?

Someone was being nice apparently.

Yep. Looks like it was totally worth it:

Cerian Quilor wrote:As far as Kantrias is concerned, the Grey Wardens invaded Kantrias. While Osiris didn't obtain permission to move in their troops - there wasn't exactly a functional government during that period - they were moving in with positive intentions towards us. The Grey Warden's 'defending' was nothing of the sort.

I'm not flexible enough for the mental gymnastics required for this to seem like an even remotely reasonable statement.

> osiris peeps make two clean puppets
> puppets post on RMB pretending to be old natives coming back (here and here) in classic crappy noob "stealth" raider style
> they get delegacy
> delegate changes WFE to praise his own region (hailing the pharaoh) - also in true raider style
> defenders see it (of course), swoop in, and restore old WFE that doesn't praise some other region
> "the Grey Wardens invaded Kantrias"
> mfw



Seriously, CQ, you don't need to give yourself the illusion that we attacked the region, because if we did, it would have a different founder nation and be flying the Wardens flag right now. Just ask all these places what happens when we want a region.

Roavin wrote:region.

Hey, fuck off. I basically gave that to you all.

SYG wrote:

Roavin wrote:region.

Hey, fuck off. I basically gave that to you all.

A proud Osiran working for the Wardens? A scandal

Roavin wrote:I'm not flexible enough for the mental gymnastics required for this to seem like an even remotely reasonable statement.

For the millionth time: We used stealth because we believed the Wardens would stop us if we didn't. We didn't believe you would stop us for the purpose of defending the region, but rather for the purpose of stopping us from defending it so you could invade it. We "tagged" the WFE -- with an addition, not by wiping the native WFE, if I recall correctly -- to make clear we were there for defensive purposes, which you proceeded to ignore.

Osiris had absolutely no reason to invade Kantrias. On the contrary, Kantrias had always been friendly to Osiris, and Osiris was seeking to repay that friendliness by undertaking a stealth operation to secure it. Whether you believe that or not -- and I think you do whether you'll admit it or not, because I think you know by now when I'm lying -- that's what happened. I'm glad Kantrias has come to the same conclusion.

Riddle me this: If we had been raiding Kantrias, why would I have notified Brunhilde, at the time Europeia's Minister of Foreign Affairs, and asked her if Cerian could be reached? She confirmed that I did contact her. Is it standard practice during a raid, do you think, to try to contact the region's Founder?

Just admit you were wrong and let's move on.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Just admit you were wrong and let's move on.

Have you ever done that?

Drop Your Pants wrote:

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Just admit you were wrong and let's move on.

Have you ever done that?

I admit I was wrong all the time and then I'm accused of flip flopping.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Roavin wrote:I'm not flexible enough for the mental gymnastics required for this to seem like an even remotely reasonable statement.

For the millionth time: We used stealth because we believed the Wardens would stop us if we didn't. We didn't believe you would stop us for the purpose of defending the region, but rather for the purpose of stopping us from defending it so you could invade it. We "tagged" the WFE -- with an addition, not by wiping the native WFE, if I recall correctly -- to make clear we were there for defensive purposes, which you proceeded to ignore.

Osiris had absolutely no reason to invade Kantrias. On the contrary, Kantrias had always been friendly to Osiris, and Osiris was seeking to repay that friendliness by undertaking a stealth operation to secure it. Whether you believe that or not -- and I think you do whether you'll admit it or not, because I think you know by now when I'm lying -- that's what happened. I'm glad Kantrias has come to the same conclusion.

Riddle me this: If we had been raiding Kantrias, why would I have notified Brunhilde, at the time Europeia's Minister of Foreign Affairs, and asked her if Cerian could be reached? She confirmed that I did contact her. Is it standard practice during a raid, do you think, to try to contact the region's Founder?

Just admit you were wrong and let's move on.

Okay, sure - I'll absolutely grant you that you were legitimately trying to secure it. Brun's statement very much helped reinforce that.

Nonetheless, you did it in the way that will automatically trigger any defender (Warden or not), using textbook "stealth" tactics that we see through immediately (and only succeeded there for that one update because presumably nobody was spotting that day - 'twas a time of few defenders). Then you literally tag the WFE. Yes, you left up the old one, and basically added something like "This region is now protectorate of Osiris - Hail the Pharaoh o/" or something (I can't look it up exactly, because it happened between successive major and minor updates and therefore isn't in any of the dumps). Osiris being, then as now, a raider-aligned region. And we weren't supposed to think this was just a typical noob-style stealth raid!?

You could have prevented it by just going in there without "stealth", writing an RMB post saying "hi, we're from Osiris, Kantrias was ally for a long time so we're kinda making sure nobody fucks things up here right now. We're trying to get into contact with CQ, plus maybe one of these fine natives can WA up so they can password since they have the influence for it". Defenders wouldn't have touched it, maybe even supported it. By the way, the key word here is Defenders. I'm not referring to Wardens, but Defenders, because this wasn't just Wardens swooping in. Take a look at the report, and you'll find plenty of Defenders from other places there as well, several of those also in the officers channel that could have complained. They didn't.

So - sure, I'll grant you that you were trying to protect it. But you did it in the most stupid way possible that made it unambiguously look like a raid to us at the time, which is why we jumped there in good faith. Turning around and then claiming that Wardens invaded it is, once again, insane mental gymnastics I can't do.

Defenders can't assume that Osiris invaded a region, but Osiris can assume that Codger and I are actually supporters of AJW.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Drop Your Pants wrote:Have you ever done that?

I admit I was wrong all the time and then I'm accused of flip flopping.

You admit you're wrong in the same way Donald does.

@Roavin: A true invasion leaves the region worse off than it was found before the foreign units moved in. And the people who 'defended' Kantrias (logical kneejerk reaction or not) that were from TGW and its compatriots did leave Kantrias worse than they found it.

Regardless of it you define it as an invasion or not, what you did was most certainly not defending it.

Cerian Quilor wrote:Regardless of it you define it as an invasion or not, what you did was most certainly not defending it.

What we should have done is refound the damn thing

Cerian Quilor wrote:@Roavin: A true invasion leaves the region worse off than it was found before the foreign units moved in. And the people who 'defended' Kantrias (logical kneejerk reaction or not) that were from TGW and its compatriots did leave Kantrias worse than they found it.

Regardless of it you define it as an invasion or not, what you did was most certainly not defending it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or who they believe to be, injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated.

Obviously Nationstates doesn't have laws, but I think the principle still stands. Are you really so bored that you have nothing better to do than to rail on people who were trying to help your region while you were absent? The Wardens saw a region in distress, the Wardens moved to liberate that region. Was it all a misunderstanding? Seems like, but that doesn't mean that you can retroactively assign malice to TGW's actions.

Also who fucking cares, honestly it's been like half a year.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Defenders can't assume that Osiris invaded a region, but Osiris can assume that Codger and I are actually supporters of AJW.

I mean, the difference is we continually maintained we weren't invading Kantrias, while you and Codger both outright said you were supporters of AJW. So that is less an assumption and more looking at what you're actually saying and believing you.

I doubt you support AJW. There is no question in my mind that you oppose Osiris though. They're right to keep you and the rest of the Wardens banned.

Altmoras wrote:

Cerian Quilor wrote:@Roavin: A true invasion leaves the region worse off than it was found before the foreign units moved in. And the people who 'defended' Kantrias (logical kneejerk reaction or not) that were from TGW and its compatriots did leave Kantrias worse than they found it.

Regardless of it you define it as an invasion or not, what you did was most certainly not defending it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

Good Samaritan laws offer legal protection to people who give reasonable assistance to those who are, or who they believe to be, injured, ill, in peril, or otherwise incapacitated.

Obviously Nationstates doesn't have laws, but I think the principle still stands. Are you really so bored that you have nothing better to do than to rail on people who were trying to help your region while you were absent? The Wardens saw a region in distress, the Wardens moved to liberate that region. Was it all a misunderstanding? Seems like, but that doesn't mean that you can retroactively assign malice to TGW's actions.

Also who fucking cares, honestly it's been like half a year.

You guys brought it up as some sort of point of relevance when I pointed out that the day would never come when TGW would be setting up an outpost in the region, which is hardly a surprising statement, since I'm a hardline imperialist.

Cerian Quilor wrote:You guys brought it up as some sort of point of relevance when I pointed out that the day would never come when TGW would be setting up an outpost in the region, which is hardly a surprising statement, since I'm a hardline imperialist.

Pretty sure it was a joke which you appear to have completely missed

I'm late to the Osiris-Wardens discussion by a few posts, but here's my two cents:

In my opinion, R/D principle and organizational differences are part of the reason that Osiris and TGW have terrible relations at this point, but not the main reason. I believe the main reason is a negative opinion held by individuals in Osiris about the character of individuals in TGW, and vice versa. As an Osiran loyalist and a Warden Emeritus, I am an example of the OFO and TGW co-existing. I hope one day to be proof of that in action, rather than being the exception to the current rule. I'm in no rush though. Osiris will exist for a long time, TGW will exist for a long time, and eventually there be a time where the two can get along.

If not under Osiris' current Pharaoh, if not under the next Pharaoh, if not under the Pharaoh after that, then still I can wait.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Defenders can't assume that Osiris invaded a region, but Osiris can assume that Codger and I are actually supporters of AJW.

I mean, the difference is we continually maintained we weren't invading Kantrias, while you and Codger both outright said you were supporters of AJW. So that is less an assumption and more looking at what you're actually saying and believing you.

I doubt you support AJW. There is no question in my mind that you oppose Osiris though. They're right to keep you and the rest of the Wardens banned.

More like looking at what we are saying, knowing it is an obvious parody and deciding the play along.

There's absolutely nothing to be read from my little fun in WZ Australia. It's not an example or evidence of anything lol.

Ridersyl wrote: Osiris will exist for a long time, TGW will exist for a long time, and eventually there be a time where the two can get along.

If not under Osiris' current Pharaoh, if not under the next Pharaoh, if not under the Pharaoh after that, then still I can wait.

Well Osiris is a GCR and will last forever. TGW will be gone one day, like all other regions and organisations that ever existed. So looking at it another way you can say Osiris always wins.

Warwick Z Codger wrote:

Ridersyl wrote: Osiris will exist for a long time, TGW will exist for a long time, and eventually there be a time where the two can get along.

If not under Osiris' current Pharaoh, if not under the next Pharaoh, if not under the Pharaoh after that, then still I can wait.

Well Osiris is a GCR and will last forever. TGW will be gone one day, like all other regions and organisations that ever existed. So looking at it another way you can say Osiris always wins.

If TGW ceases without there being an iteration of both it and Osiris that can get along at some point in the future, then I will be surprised.

Cerian Quilor wrote:@Roavin: A true invasion leaves the region worse off than it was found before the foreign units moved in. And the people who 'defended' Kantrias (logical kneejerk reaction or not) that were from TGW and its compatriots did leave Kantrias worse than they found it.

Regardless of it you define it as an invasion or not, what you did was most certainly not defending it.

But Kantrias wasn't any worse off at all -- because the region was never in any real threat of being invaded.

When KGB "tried" (it wasn't a particularly impressive attempt) they were rather forcibly removed.

Warwick Z Codger wrote:TGW will be gone one day, like all other regions and organisations that ever existed.

i mean, vippertooth33 still pokes around attacking fascists from his wheelchair in the old folks' home, so there's a chance TGW will still be here years down the line

Caelapes wrote:

Warwick Z Codger wrote:TGW will be gone one day, like all other regions and organisations that ever existed.

i mean, vippertooth33 still pokes around attacking fascists from his wheelchair in the old folks' home, so there's a chance TGW will still be here years down the line

Isn't Vippertooth in the MT Army?

Tinhampton wrote:Isn't Vippertooth in the MT Army?

yes

the point is that people can stick around for a long time and carry an org with them.

The Grey Wardens were flying through update, spotting for darkspawn, bored out of their minds. Then, there they were! A sad, sad excuse for Darkspawn, yes, but Darkspawn nonetheless. Coming out of the caves of Domon Ord, the craven foe attempted to establish themselves as a presense, but the Wardens and their staunch allies pushed them back repeatedly. In particular, the Darkspawn known as Kekistan 15 continuously proved his lack of speed, being slain repeatedly before they were able to revitalize themselves with a fresh switchers. The brave defenders battled the foe across update, transcending normal speed and getting lost in the speed sauce. In one instance, the Darkspawn attempted to target a fascist hive, but the Wardens weren't feeling letting them have it and took it for themselves to burn it down. In addition, supports were run in the Eastern Mountains, laptops crashed at the least opportune moments, and The Invaders continued to epitomize mediocrity on the battlefield. What hope there may have been post #DaisyWatch that there would be a recovery there, the sauce-lost Wardens can confirm that there is without question no recovery happening.

All in all, the update was almost as hilarious of a time as this recording of a Kingdom of Great Britain tag run that was forwarded to our sauce-bosses for collection. It's world class entertainment, honestly.

---

As a non-Warden present at update, I can definitively state that both Wardens and non-Wardens were lost in the sauce.

Would have dragged you all out of the sauce if I could have