NationStates

Sedgistan wrote:So no-one is using Halcones'/Frak's scripts any more, or communicating with either of them?

Hah, that's funny. Half of this side of gameplay never stopped using Predator or giving Halc direct feedback on upkeep for it.

In that case:

1. I hope those using Predator are wholly confident that it does not violate the Script Rules. It is the responsibility of the player using a tool to verify that it fits within the rules. Assuming that it is legal because it has been used for a while is no assurance that it actually is. If you use an illegal script, you will be punished for it.

2. Those facilitating a DOS player's access to and influence over the site by working with Halcones to develop his tools are acting in contravention of the rules. This is their opportunity to come clean about it, and cease working with him: GHR us. Failure to do so runs the risk that you yourself are DOSed. Previous players who have come clean about working with DOS players are still using the site (Nephmir, Scientiam); those that haven't have been DOSed themselves (Halcones, Bob Moran).

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

Hence why I personally avoid these sort of things entirely. I don't like getting involved in grey area's.

Sedgistan wrote:In that case:

1. I hope those using Predator are wholly confident that it does not violate the Script Rules. It is the responsibility of the player using a tool to verify that it fits within the rules. Assuming that it is legal because it has been used for a while is no assurance that it actually is. If you use an illegal script, you will be punished for it.

2. Those facilitating a DOS player's access to and influence over the site by working with Halcones to develop his tools are acting in contravention of the rules. This is their opportunity to come clean about it, and cease working with him: GHR us. Failure to do so runs the risk that you yourself are DOSed. Previous players who have come clean about working with DOS players are still using the site (Nephmir, Scientiam); those that haven't have been DOSed themselves (Halcones, Bob Moran).

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

Hi Sedge,

I have a quick question, and apologies for the thread jack, but I'm just going off your comment here. Just so I am clear, because it has come up in the past, can you define 'working' with a DOS player? I know several regions allow DOS players to maintain accounts and activity on their offsites for RP purposes, etc. Is this inclusive of that or only in regards to script usage?

Thanks,
me

Siberian Districts wrote:

ADST World wrote:
You do realize that these actions are similar to those of an internet troll, and that beyond that, it is disrespectful, and sometimes just downright cruel, to afflict others with minor troubles, just because it's funny, right?

Trolling is against the rules. Raiding isn't. I think that's difference enough. Any argument on this probably shouldn't be on this thread

My point is, a actualized war system with opt in allows for fewer raiders, and I feel as though those raiders get their laughs by raiding us day in and day out.

If a system isn't implemented, any faith I had in this community will crumble, I will leave, and possibly start a website with a similar idea, but a actualized war system. Because honestly, this system, with the arguments, the raids, and the chaos of it all, is just starting to feel like Max Barry enjoys watching us be crushed by raiders.

In other words:
I AM FED UP WITH RAIDERS MAKE A WAR SYSTEM MAX BARRY!

Pierconium wrote:

Sedgistan wrote:In that case:

1. I hope those using Predator are wholly confident that it does not violate the Script Rules. It is the responsibility of the player using a tool to verify that it fits within the rules. Assuming that it is legal because it has been used for a while is no assurance that it actually is. If you use an illegal script, you will be punished for it.

2. Those facilitating a DOS player's access to and influence over the site by working with Halcones to develop his tools are acting in contravention of the rules. This is their opportunity to come clean about it, and cease working with him: GHR us. Failure to do so runs the risk that you yourself are DOSed. Previous players who have come clean about working with DOS players are still using the site (Nephmir, Scientiam); those that haven't have been DOSed themselves (Halcones, Bob Moran).

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

Hi Sedge,

I have a quick question, and apologies for the thread jack, but I'm just going off your comment here. Just so I am clear, because it has come up in the past, can you define 'working' with a DOS player? I know several regions allow DOS players to maintain accounts and activity on their offsites for RP purposes, etc. Is this inclusive of that or only in regards to script usage?

Thanks,
me

It has been stated many times that the mods do not police offsite activities.

The Silver Sentinel wrote:

Pierconium wrote:Hi Sedge,

I have a quick question, and apologies for the thread jack, but I'm just going off your comment here. Just so I am clear, because it has come up in the past, can you define 'working' with a DOS player? I know several regions allow DOS players to maintain accounts and activity on their offsites for RP purposes, etc. Is this inclusive of that or only in regards to script usage?

Thanks,
me

It has been stated many times that the mods do not police offsite activities.

Yes, I know.

However, in the comment that I quoted and directed to the moderator offsite activities are discussed and warned against, ergo...

Working with a DOS player can mean any number of things. Yes, Sedge mentions facilitating access but that isn't the only aspect he mentions. Especially in conjunction with 'influence over the site'. What does that mean? Access to in regards to scripts, etc. does seem fairly clear but a DOS player could wield influence in any number of ways by 'working with' players that are still active in the game.

Pierconium wrote:Yes, I know.

However, in the comment that I quoted and directed to the moderator offsite activities are discussed and warned against, ergo...

Working with a DOS player can mean any number of things. Yes, Sedge mentions facilitating access but that isn't the only aspect he mentions.

I was assured that so long as St George remained on our offsite and was not asking people to do things on nationstates.net for him, etc, we were fine.

I'm under the impression that the conduct moderation prohibits is conduct that involves a DoS player continuing to interact with the site itself, rather than communities associated with it. For example, helping a DoS player develop code that interfaces with NS by running it for them would not be permissible. Nor would posting telegrams or on regional message boards or the onsite forums for such a player be allowed.

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:

Pierconium wrote:Yes, I know.

However, in the comment that I quoted and directed to the moderator offsite activities are discussed and warned against, ergo...

Working with a DOS player can mean any number of things. Yes, Sedge mentions facilitating access but that isn't the only aspect he mentions.

I was assured that so long as St George remained on our offsite and was not asking people to do things on nationstates.net for him, etc, we were fine.

I'm under the impression that the conduct moderation prohibits is conduct that involves a DoS player continuing to interact with the site itself, rather than communities associated with it. For example, helping a DoS player develop code that interfaces with NS by running it for them would not be permissible. Nor would posting telegrams or on regional message boards or the onsite forums for such a player be allowed.

Right, which is a reasonable assumption to make and one that I am happy to make myself. However, I asked that a moderator clarify it for me since he specifically mentioned it. If Eluvatar has the authority to clarify in that fashion, great, then have it do so.

Otherwise, we are all just assuming. If a DOS player was the primary 'commander' or what have you of a raider group and was directing which regions would be invaded at specific updates would that level of onsite influence be considered above the threshold? Just curious. Would the players that took part in those raids be subject to disciplinary action even if they are unaware of a scripts usage?

I would just like a clear definition from the moderation team of what 'working with' a DOS player means in regards to 'influence over the site'. I can assume what it means but just like the message I quoted states, if you just assume something because that is the way it has been for a while, you may still be incorrect.

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I was assured that so long as St George remained on our offsite and was not asking people to do things on nationstates.net for him, etc, we were fine.

I'm under the impression that the conduct moderation prohibits is conduct that involves a DoS player continuing to interact with the site itself, rather than communities associated with it. For example, helping a DoS player develop code that interfaces with NS by running it for them would not be permissible. Nor would posting telegrams or on regional message boards or the onsite forums for such a player be allowed.

That's correct.

Sedgistan wrote:

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I was assured that so long as St George remained on our offsite and was not asking people to do things on nationstates.net for him, etc, we were fine.

I'm under the impression that the conduct moderation prohibits is conduct that involves a DoS player continuing to interact with the site itself, rather than communities associated with it. For example, helping a DoS player develop code that interfaces with NS by running it for them would not be permissible. Nor would posting telegrams or on regional message boards or the onsite forums for such a player be allowed.

That's correct.

Thanks.

Pierconium wrote:Otherwise, we are all just assuming. If a DOS player was the primary 'commander' or what have you of a raider group and was directing which regions would be invaded at specific updates would that level of onsite influence be considered above the threshold? Just curious. Would the players that took part in those raids be subject to disciplinary action even if they are unaware of a scripts usage?

A good summary would be that if you're doing something on nationstates.net at the behest of a DOS player, you are subject to moderator action.

ADST World wrote:

Siberian Districts wrote:
Trolling is against the rules. Raiding isn't. I think that's difference enough. Any argument on this probably shouldn't be on this thread

My point is, a actualized war system with opt in allows for fewer raiders, and I feel as though those raiders get their laughs by raiding us day in and day out.

If a system isn't implemented, any faith I had in this community will crumble, I will leave, and possibly start a website with a similar idea, but a actualized war system. Because honestly, this system, with the arguments, the raids, and the chaos of it all, is just starting to feel like Max Barry enjoys watching us be crushed by raiders.

In other words:
I AM FED UP WITH RAIDERS MAKE A WAR SYSTEM MAX BARRY!

Personally, I would then suggest Cybernations. Also, Barry said no to war mechanics a while ago.

Can we just get a "just got invaded" megathread already and be done with it?

This really get more and more interesting.

Discussion evolving from 'we raiders definitely play by the rules' over 'are you sure raiders are playing by the rules ' to 'we do really know whether raiders are playing by the rules'.

Just the fact that there are complex scripts enabling raiders to attack regions, that a couple of these scripts are illegal and that some raiders are breaking rules I having contacts with dos players that make them still influence ns, makes me conclude something is very wrong about raiding.

Some raiders are breaking the rules, therefore something is wrong about raiding?

That could be applied to anything. Example: "Some anarchists break the law, therefore something is wrong with anarchy."
It's a flawed argument.

And honestly, it's unnecessary to try molding a discussion around your disapproval of raiding. All it does is dilute the discussion at hand.

Sedgistan wrote:In that case:

1. I hope those using Predator are wholly confident that it does not violate the Script Rules. It is the responsibility of the player using a tool to verify that it fits within the rules. Assuming that it is legal because it has been used for a while is no assurance that it actually is. If you use an illegal script, you will be punished for it.

2. Those facilitating a DOS player's access to and influence over the site by working with Halcones to develop his tools are acting in contravention of the rules. This is their opportunity to come clean about it, and cease working with him: GHR us. Failure to do so runs the risk that you yourself are DOSed. Previous players who have come clean about working with DOS players are still using the site (Nephmir, Scientiam); those that haven't have been DOSed themselves (Halcones, Bob Moran).

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

I am honestly confused by this.
I am clear that working with a DOS to develop these is punishable, but am not clear if the simple action of using Predator is.
If I was to use Predator, without working with a DOS player or giving them feedback or input, would I be punished, yes or no?

For the record, TBH has officially distributed an order demanding that any troops who were using Predator in their raiding activity cease and desist doing so immediately, with a recommendation they take the advice in Sedge's post - better GHR than sorry.

- Maj. Ever-Wandering Souls, Field Marshal, The Black Hawks

Raionitu wrote:If I was to use Predator, without working with a DOS player or giving them feedback or input, would I be punished, yes or no?

From my experience with Predator before Halcones was DOS'd, you have to be authorized by a Halcones-written Python script before you can use Predator, and Predator also uses a Python script to give feedback on how it was used directly back to Halcones. Both of these features used your PC's "MAC Address".

I don't know if these features were removed in subsequent versions, but if they weren't, that's problematic.

I'm just going to chime in a quick US$0.02 here about the DOS guys and scripts:

Is it really a good idea to trust the scripts produced and maintained by somebody who was kicked off the site for breaking the script rules (among others) in the first place? That strikes me as being about as wise as letting a known animal abuser take care of your pets, or a convicted kidnapper babysit your kids. Somebody who's DOS has nothing left to lose in regards to NS and no reason whatsoever to abide by our rules, and I've seen such instances turn all too often into those ex-users trying to dick over as many people as possible in petty revenge.

Reploid Productions wrote:I'm just going to chime in a quick US$0.02 here about the DOS guys and scripts:

Is it really a good idea to trust the scripts produced and maintained by somebody who was kicked off the site for breaking the script rules (among others) in the first place? That strikes me as being about as wise as letting a known animal abuser take care of your pets, or a convicted kidnapper babysit your kids. Somebody who's DOS has nothing left to lose in regards to NS and no reason whatsoever to abide by our rules, and I've seen such instances turn all too often into those ex-users trying to dick over as many people as possible in petty revenge.

Precisely. And since Predator requires a connection to Halcs computer to work, should that not count as colluding with a DOS player?

King Nephmir II wrote:Can we just get a "just got invaded" megathread already and be done with it?

Isn't that what this is?

Ridersyl wrote:Some raiders are breaking the rules, therefore something is wrong about raiding?

That could be applied to anything. Example: "Some anarchists break the law, therefore something is wrong with anarchy."
It's a flawed argument.

And honestly, it's unnecessary to try molding a discussion around your disapproval of raiding. All it does is dilute the discussion at hand.

The discussion is about the disproval of raiding. The fact raiding requires script usage and that scripts used are controlled by dos-players only contributes to the legitimate of the claim that raiding is to be disapproved.

YoriZ wrote: The discussion is about the disproval of raiding. The fact raiding requires script usage and that scripts used are controlled by dos-players only contributes to the legitimate of the claim that raiding is to be disapproved.

That's a disingenuous statement if I've ever read one. Raiding does not require scripts. Not all scripts are controlled by DOS-players. The legitimacy of your claim being based, even in part, on these rather egregious statements serves only to abase raiders and raiding as a whole, which is, of course, convenient for you, but unfair to the majority of raiders. It's akin to saying that I saw RPers god-mod, so RP should be disapproved of.

The majority of us, when we learned of the illegal usage of scripts, shunned their use, and the users. I go out of my way to encourage people not to interact, with respect to the game, with these players anymore. Of course, for some of us, these people were/are our friends, and it sucks that we can't play the game together anymore--but they made their beds, and now they sleep in them. Would I cut a friend out of my life if they decided to break some rules and become DOS? No, not on a personal level. I wouldn't discuss the game with them, but one develops some lasting, and surprisingly deep friendships through this game.

Ultimately there is a gray area where Halcones' app/script/tool is concerned. It's been stated before that using a legal script that a user made while playing the game was ok, even after he/she became DOS, primarily, iirc, because the script was made by a valid site-user at the time. But here's the gray area, in my mind. It's like the Ship of Theseus. If the program was ok at some point, but since the DOS order, has had some (or even all) of its components updated by said user, is it still the initial, and legal, script? Or is it a new script, created by a DOS player, and therefore illegal and to be shunned? As others have said, it's better to play on the safe side altogether, but I think it's going to require administration to create a policy of what is, and what is not, acceptable with regards to situations like these.

(Edit for reference: viewtopic.php?p=24388011#p24388011 )

Severisen wrote:Ultimately there is a gray area where Halcones' app/script/tool is concerned. It's been stated before that using a legal script that a user made while playing the game was ok, even after he/she became DOS, primarily, iirc, because the script was made by a valid site-user at the time. But here's the gray area, in my mind. It's like the Ship of Theseus. If the program was ok at some point, but since the DOS order, has had some (or even all) of its components updated by said user, is it still the initial, and legal, script? Or is it a new script, created by a DOS player, and therefore illegal and to be shunned? As others have said, it's better to play on the safe side altogether, but I think it's going to require administration to create a policy of what is, and what is not, acceptable with regards to situations like these.

(Edit for reference: http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p24388011 )

These modposts may be relevant to view alongside your referred to modpost:

Sedgistan wrote:In that case:

1. I hope those using Predator are wholly confident that it does not violate the Script Rules. It is the responsibility of the player using a tool to verify that it fits within the rules. Assuming that it is legal because it has been used for a while is no assurance that it actually is. If you use an illegal script, you will be punished for it.

2. Those facilitating a DOS player's access to and influence over the site by working with Halcones to develop his tools are acting in contravention of the rules. This is their opportunity to come clean about it, and cease working with him: GHR us. Failure to do so runs the risk that you yourself are DOSed. Previous players who have come clean about working with DOS players are still using the site (Nephmir, Scientiam); those that haven't have been DOSed themselves (Halcones, Bob Moran).

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

I would draw one's attention to the fact that Reploid Production's post does not establish that any script written by Halcones is legal, and Sedgistan's post states that it is a script user's responsibility that any script they run be legal.

I did not intend to imply Reppy made a ruling on Halcones' script, but rather the fact that a legal script is not automatically made illegal after a DOS order is placed on is creator. NS++ is one example. I used a conditional statement there. IF it was legal before, it's not automatically illegal now by virtue of the standing of the creator.