The Black Hawks | Still Winning

[Marselesk]

Yes, there are always multiple ways to express solidarity. On this occasion we used our hobby to do so. We had been already planning to do a raid, and have in the last minute decided to dedicate it to the victims. We went into the regions and we changed the WFEs and flags to honor those who've been affected by the attack. There was no grand aggression being done. Just a genuine human gesture.

No one is forcing you to like raiders. But can we at least at times like this remember that we are all just people behind screens, who all have emotions and respect. I'm not trying to pull the "raiders can be nice guys" routine. I'm simply saying we're all human, and that a lot of us easily forget that about each other.

[Jakker]

Dedicating a raid to people's memory is the sort of thing you can only find offensive if you already believe raiding is a bad thing. Which I do believe, so I get it!

But this is clearly a genuine attempt on the part of TBH to express solidarity with the victims of the attack. It seems to me that this is two "sides" dealing with tragedy in different ways, so let's try to be respectful of each other.

This is a very well-stated. Ultimately, people can think of it as they wish. Several raider groups have done their own displays of solidarity as well.

I would love to see Eist, Wordy, and Raven de-tag these regions since they are so offended. Oh wait, maybe that will be too much to ask for?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I'll note again, because Kleo and Vandy kinda touched on it lightly - regular tagging procedure was abandoned here. A French-flag version of our flag was flown, embassies were left untouched, and the WFE's were left with a note of condolence, rather than a note of destruction. Compare https://www.nationstates.net/region=rose to https://www.nationstates.net/region=militaryexperts .

[Cormac Stark]

wow

This is like paying respects by taking a shit on your neighbour's front porch. How oblivious and self-absorbed can you people possibly be? Did nobody at all stop and think that this might have been in poor taste?

God, it's even worse than that. You're paying your respects to an innocent nation and defenceless people that was attacked by militant aggressors by aggressively attacking innocent and defenceless regions in this game. Jesus Christ...

Are you actually comparing raiding to the attacks in France? Please tell me you're not doing that.

What we've seen in this thread are The Black Hawks taking their primary activity in the game, raiding, to pay respects to and show solidarity with France. And then we've seen defenders conflate real life terrorism with raiding, and insist that this wasn't an appropriate way to show solidarity as if only defenders can decide what is and isn't appropriate in NationStates. Newsflash: What isn't appropriate is conflating a damn game with real life terrorism.

Why any reasonable, sane person is a defender these days, I have no idea. You have all lost it and should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't know what explains Ravania's lack of sanity, but that the other two defenders in this thread both received their defender indoctrination in 10000 Islands speaks volumes about how utterly nuts that region is.

[Guy]

Terrorism is not raiding. Raiding is not terrorism. No one suggests that. Drop your silly propaganda hat Cormac, this is too real for that.

To express solidarity by invading a French-themed region -- thus likely upsetting people associated with it, even though of course this annoyance does not compare with the destructive impact that terrorism has -- seems silly. You're not supposed to upset the people you're expressing solidarity with.

I recognise that this invasion was done in a different manner to most, thus ameliorating some of the negative impact. I recognise that TBH was probably well-intentioned in doing so, though I would suggest their good intentions are misplaced here.

[Severisen]

First of all, to my knowledge, the regions invaded weren't French.

Second, Cormac didn't put the propaganda hat on. The defenders who jumped on this did.

[Cormac Stark]

Terrorism is not raiding. Raiding is not terrorism. No one suggests that. Drop your silly propaganda hat Cormac, this is too real for that.

I'm putting on a propaganda hat? Eist just compared raiding to terrorism. You can say "no one suggests that" all you want, but Eist did suggest that in the post I quoted when he directly tied attacking "an innocent nation and and defenceless people" (France, in real life) to "aggressively attacking innocent and defenceless regions in this game."

To absolutely no one's surprise, you are choosing to attack me instead of recognizing reality and doing something about it, which is what you do best.

To express solidarity by invading a French-themed region -- thus likely upsetting people associated with it, even though of course this annoyance does not compare with the destructive impact that terrorism has -- seems silly. You're not supposed to upset the people you're expressing solidarity with.

Which "French-themed region" was invaded? Shouldn't you have some idea of what you're talking about before commenting?

I recognise that this invasion was done in a different manner to most, thus ameliorating some of the negative impact. I recognise that TBH was probably well-intentioned in doing so, though I would suggest their good intentions are misplaced here.

At least they had good intentions, which is more than I can say about defenders in this thread, yourself included, who are using a real life tragedy, an act of terrorism, to try to make raiders look bad. How disgusting. You should be condemning that, not defending it.

[Guy]

First of all, to my knowledge, the regions invaded weren't French.

Second, Cormac didn't put the propaganda hat on. The defenders who jumped on this did.

Apologies -- there was an invasion attempt on a French-themed region a few updates ago, following the terrorist attacks, which I wrongly associated with this batch of invasions. As best as I can ascertain looking at movements from a few updates ago, it appears that it was by ERN.

I would still question the wisdom of using a feature on an online game that can cause much annoyance to express solidarity. However, I understand the desire to use your creative tools within NS to express your feelings on this matter.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I would love to see Eist, Wordy, and Raven de-tag these regions since they are so offended. Oh wait, maybe that will be too much to ask for?

No issues here. I've said literally zero 'bout this.

[Cormac Stark]

I would love to see Eist, Wordy, and Raven de-tag these regions since they are so offended. Oh wait, maybe that will be too much to ask for?

No issues here. I've said literally zero 'bout this.

He meant to type Ravania, I think.

[Morndul]

Why any reasonable, sane person is a defender these days, I have no idea. You have all lost it and should be ashamed of yourselves. I don't know what explains Ravania's lack of sanity, but that the other two defenders in this thread both received their defender indoctrination in 10000 Islands speaks volumes about how utterly nuts that region is.

The "other two defenders in this thread"? I'm a defender too. Just bogged down with delegacy.

No issues here. I've said literally zero 'bout this.

I believe "raven" was meant to refer to Ravania.

[Ramaeus]

This is a game. Step back, take a deep breath, and then post. You all are taking a tag run -- which is ultimately undone easily -- with a seriousness that isn't deserved. At its worst, this can be compared to a group which sprays graffiti with messages sympathetic to France upon buildings. This isn't anything to get incensed over to the point where you claim to have "lost all respect" for a group.

[Guy]

This is a game. Step back, take a deep breath, and then post. You all are taking a tag run -- which is ultimately undone easily -- with a seriousness that isn't deserved. At its worst, this can be compared to a group which sprays graffiti with messages sympathetic to France upon buildings.

I absolutely, entirely agree with this. It's unfortunate to express solidarity through a medium that can cause a mild annoyance to people, in my opinion.

From there to comparing 'graffiti artists / raiders' to terrorists there is a long bow, and anyone doing so is so clearly wrong I can't believe I even have to say this.

[Jakker]

No issues here. I've said literally zero 'bout this.

He meant to type Ravania, I think.

The real Raven just likes to bust my wings.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Just making a few things clear.

1. I didn't bring a real life tragedy into R/D
2. Raiders always say, raiding and espacially tagging is for fun. I couldn't see the 'fun' in this.
3. There are other means to express your solidarity in my opinion.

1. No, but you did take what was clearly an attempt to pay respect to the victims of a real life tragedy and warped it into some sort of personal attack on the citizens of Paris.
2. Is that seriously how you look at the world? "This is a fun activity, therefore it cannot be serious at any time." I suppose if someone tagged every region in a tag run with pink colors and claimed that it was some sort of breast cancer awareness thing they would be scolded for it? (Serious question because I want to do that.) I'm glad I didn't have time to organize a raid on Diabetes on saturday like I wanted to, because apparently I would have been disrespecting people with diabetes.
3. Some people paint pictures. Others write songs. Others tweet their condolences. The Black Hawks raid. If it pisses you off so much, go detag those regions instead of whining about it here.

I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the concept of someone actually saying something as offensive as this. I mean, you can call raiders evil scumbags all you want normally, and I wouldn't care. But actually assuming that raiders would try to prey off of an actual tragedy? News flash: This is a fucking game. Raiders are actual people, people who were as horrified as you were when they heard about these attacks, who know people who were in the city. Get the fuck off your high horse before you start spouting accusations like this at people who are trying to pay respect.

[Wordy]

@ Cormac
Why is it that absolutely every post of yours makes me think there are veins popping out of your head about to explode? You need to relax

As to my post seemingly due to coming from a region you feel is "utterly nuts" I will maintain my opinion. Spreading a message of respect while disrespecting others is in poor taste. Invaders do have more than one tool in the tool box to express themselves. I am aware that it was not done to offend but poor choice none-the-less.

[Cormac Stark]

@ Cormac
Why is it that absolutely every post of yours makes me think there are veins popping out of your head about to explode? You need to relax

As to my post seemingly due to coming from a region you feel is "utterly nuts" I will maintain my opinion. Spreading a message of respect while disrespecting others is in poor taste. Invaders do have more than one tool in the tool box to express themselves. I am aware that it was not done to offend but poor choice none-the-less.

Sorry, seeing my friends compared with terrorist murderers by your friend does tend to piss me off. Maybe I do need to relax, but oddly, and call me crazy, I think the person comparing people in a game to real life terrorists may need to relax just a little bit more than I do.

[Zaolat]

@ Cormac
Why is it that absolutely every post of yours makes me think there are veins popping out of your head about to explode? You need to relax

As to my post seemingly due to coming from a region you feel is "utterly nuts" I will maintain my opinion. Spreading a message of respect while disrespecting others is in poor taste. Invaders do have more than one tool in the tool box to express themselves. I am aware that it was not done to offend but poor choice none-the-less.

Sorry, seeing my friends compared with terrorist murderers by your friend does tend to piss me off. Maybe I do need to relax, but oddly, and call me crazy, I think the person comparing people in a game to real life terrorists may need to relax just a little bit more than I do.

I'm with you on your thoughts in this thread Cormac, but Wordy is alone the one who didn't condemn and suggested in her own way what she thought would be a more positive way to do what TBH did.

[Ravania Ultra]

Let me make this very clear:

TBH was one of the raider-groups I respected cause they used to be classy. I, personally, found their way of paying respects in bad taste and absolutely not classy. So they lost that respect. End of the line.

If you want to make a reference to RL, use the spraycan-vandalism. Do I think spraying the Paris-peace-sign on private or public property a classy way of paying respects? No.
Is it a way of showing respect? Possibly, but there are enough other ways of showing respect in my opinion.

At no point I compared TBH to terrorists. Just like vandalism isn't terrorism.

[Cormac Stark]

Let me make this very clear:

TBH was one of the raider-groups I respected cause they used to be classy. I, personally, found their way of paying respects in bad taste and absolutely not classy. So they lost that respect. End of the line.

If you want to make a reference to RL, use the spraycan-vandalism. Do I think spraying the Paris-peace-sign on private or public property a classy way of paying respects? No.
Is it a way of showing respect? Possibly, but there are enough other ways of showing respect in my opinion.

At no point I compared TBH to terrorists. Just like vandalism isn't terrorism.

I also disagree with conflating valid gameplay -- that's what raiding is, whether you like it or not -- with real life vandalism, which is usually illegal. Comparing a valid form of gameplay to any form of real life illegal activity is way over the top. But that is certainly a lot better than conflating it with real life terrorism as Eist did, so thank you for clarifying.

[Eist]

I don't really like giving you the time of day, Cormac, because I think you are more of a joke in this game than Unibot, but I'll bite this once because you are completely and wilfully misrepresenting my argument. As usual. Don't play the tiny violin for raiders to discredit my argument.

Simply put--and I can't make this more clear--it is idiotic and extremely hypocritical of players in this game to go about removing other player's sovereignty in a hostile manner in the name of supporting a real life attempt to do exactly this. Do I think they are the same thing? No, of course I do not--and I never came close to expressing that idea. Are there parallels between the happenings in this meaningless and fun game (that I obviously don't really care about any more either way since I haven't done jack shit in 2 years) and the extremely urgent and paramount civil issues every country in the world has to deal with right now? They're not on the same scale at all, but you bet there is. This is a political simulator after all!

I urge you, Cormac, to use a dictionary to look up some of the words that you don't understand. I'll give you are freebie: simulator (/simyəˌlādər/): a device that enables the operator to reproduce or represent under test conditions phenomena likely to occur in actual performance. I do expect a nonsense reply from you here that will make me cringe or smirk, but don't expect me to respond to that. If you ever feel the need to respond to another one of my posts, then I humbly request that you don't misrepresent my argument to such a egregious degree again.

[Morndul]

Typing this on my phone between classes so my time to compose this is limited, but you both seem to think the other is being dishonest. And I believe that simply isn't true.

We're discussing something that some of us are very passionate about but I don't believe anyone is deliberately misrepresenting the other side.

Really I have a lot more to say than that but I hate typing on mobile.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Typing this on my phone between classes so my time to compose this is limited, but you both seem to think the other is being dishonest. And I believe that simply isn't true.

We're discussing something that some of us are very passionate about but I don't believe anyone is deliberately misrepresenting the other side.

Really I have a lot more to say than that but I hate typing on mobile.

Personally, I think this could have been an interesting discussion on the use of gameplay to advocate real life events. Maybe TBH shouldn't have done this, maybe there was an overreaction to it. Instead of immediately accusing them of disrespecting the victims of a tragedy, someone could have posted the question this conversation could have been about: "is this appropriate?" I know I would have participated in that conversation, it sounds much more interesting than this one.

I also disagree with conflating valid gameplay -- that's what raiding is, whether you like it or not -- with real life vandalism, which is usually illegal. Comparing a valid form of gameplay to any form of real life illegal activity is way over the top. But that is certainly a lot better than conflating it with real life terrorism as Eist did, so thank you for clarifying.

Huh... That's the first time I've ever seen someone argue against the graffiti comparison. I've always thought it worked pretty well.

[November ARL]

Let me make this very clear:

TBH was one of the raider-groups I respected cause they used to be classy. I, personally, found their way of paying respects in bad taste and absolutely not classy. So they lost that respect. End of the line.

If you want to make a reference to RL, use the spraycan-vandalism. Do I think spraying the Paris-peace-sign on private or public property a classy way of paying respects? No.
Is it a way of showing respect? Possibly, but there are enough other ways of showing respect in my opinion.

At no point I compared TBH to terrorists. Just like vandalism isn't terrorism.

I also disagree with conflating valid gameplay -- that's what raiding is, whether you like it or not -- with real life vandalism, which is usually illegal. Comparing a valid form of gameplay to any form of real life illegal activity is way over the top. But that is certainly a lot better than conflating it with real life terrorism as Eist did, so thank you for clarifying.

Most raiding is graffiti and just a mess that requires a clean up as raiders tag it's like I love andyl being posted everywhere but less falttering to me.

[Cormac Stark]

Blah, blah, blah, I never said what you're saying I said. Blah, blah, blah.

God, it's even worse than that. You're paying your respects to an innocent nation and defenceless people that was attacked by militant aggressors by aggressively attacking innocent and defenceless regions in this game. Jesus Christ...

---

Huh... That's the first time I've ever seen someone argue against the graffiti comparison. I've always thought it worked pretty well.

It's one thing to call it graffiti -- I've called tag raiding graffiti in the past, actually -- in the context of the game, and another to compare it to real life vandalism. There is no real life comparison at all because this is a game.