Illegal Script Usage

[Cephal Talleyrand]

I really think that punishing the entire LKE for the actions of 1 individual acting without permission is like preventing the entire Baltimore Police department from arresting anyone for 3 months because a few cops killed a guy in custody.

Why is the organization being punished for the unsanctioned actions of one member?

They flocked under his banner, now they suffer the consequences. That's how it works.

No. The LKE did not "flock under the banner" of Bob Moran. He was a low level official without the authority to make the decision on whether or not he would use a script that violated the game rules. The leadership of the LKE consists of the Emperor, The Crown Prince, The Prince Imperial (myself), the Lord Protector, and the Prime Minister. Bob Moran was merely the Minister of the Interior who's purview was simply to naturalize and focus on retention as well as doing basic manual recruitment. He was not within the reigns of his authority to implement and use a script that violated the game's rules and he did not inform anyone in the leadership of his intent to do so or that he had it. As far as any of us were concerned, he was following the rules and just working really hard with manual recruitment.

While most of us arguing in the LKE's favor right now have shifted to the understanding that corrective intent may be necessary in this case regardless of our non-participation in Bob Moran's actions - we refuse to believe that we are at fault to the point by which we should be made an example of to serve as a deterrant. Collective punishment for the actions of an individual who made choices that were beyond his sanction and not made aware to us until this thread had been formed is unjust and regardless I will continue to defend that point of view.

[Wirbanskia]

Any attempt to evade this block (for example by recruiting for 'proxy regions') will result in an extension of the block by 1 month per attempt, as well as severe punishment for all players involved.

Sooo, you're saying you'll dish out "severe" punishments for ALL PLAYERS INVOLVED in any recruitment ban evasion. Now, using that same logic, I thought it would have been pretty clear for really anyone to apply that to the actual regional recruitment ban. Seeing as obviously not all 800 something people in TBR or I don't know how many people in LKE actually participated in this cheat, how is it that everyone is being punished in some way? This isn't school, you can't really consider this a playground for everyone's amusement and childish behavior, so why is the collective group being harmed together? Do you guys not have enough evidence that the cheat was being carried out by the specific people stated?

This decision, whether debated at all, is quite frankly unjust, in no way fair at all. Blanket punishing a group for something they honestly either did not know about, or could have cared to look deeply into is basically doing the worst at your volunteered job. Considering the founder/delegate may have known, why have you not looked into it? I'm not going to go around assuming things, I'm looking at both sides and really, they both suck. The same cliche over-used arguments being thrown back and forth, and for what? Really, if anyone here took a long hard look at BOTH sides then maybe we could come up with a fair judgement instead of throwing everyone under the bus.

[Tim Stark]

I wonder if these defenders who are supporting the punishment against LKE would support it if it was against a defender region.

Just for the record, at least for myself, if the circumstances were the same, I would support the punishment against any region regardless of its R/D affiliation. I think this definitely transcends faction lines, at least for me, and is based simply on the circumstances which occurred, which I believe led the moderation team to make the right call on the matter. Does the defender in me chuckle a bit that it's imperialist/raider groups that suffer, sure, but I'd support a ban for such actions for any region.

[Excidium Planetis]

So... what happens if a member if LKE decides to troll or is just stupid and tries to evade the ban on recruiting? Does all LKE get punished again for the actions of one individual acting without approval?

[Cephal Talleyrand]

You are effectively making the same point that has been made previously by certain individuals, namely that the 3 month restriction on all recruitment activity by the LKE imposed by the Administrators is necessary to correct the advantage gained to the LKE through the rogue behaviour of Bob Moran.

However, this position is problematic:

1. We cannot quantify with any certainty how much of a population loss the LKE will endure as a result of the 3 month restriction. The resulting population loss could be greater than the population gain sustained - either in number or bearing in mind the prestige associated with certain benchmarks.

2. If the rogue recruitment of Bob Moran was consequential, then the cessation of his illegal activity should cause the LKE population to stabilise at a normal level if given time. Clearly, imposing a ban on the LKE recruiting would accelerate that process of stabilisation, but this has collateral consequences for the LKE - including a probability of greater population loss than can be quantifiably justified by the advantage created by Bob Moran's actions and a 3 month period in which we have no inflow of citizenship applicants, which are the life-blood of our forum community - having none for such a lengthy period will cause real damage. These major collateral effects are unnecessary if natural processes are allowed to take their course, eventually leading to a fair result.

3. Unless the illegal scripts in TBR and LKE were in operation for the same period of time and caused the same number of nations to be recruited, then it makes no sense for the period to be the same if the period has been selected with a view to correcting the aadvantage incurred by each region. Instead, this suggests that the restriction was motivated by the desire to inflict punishment on the LKE and deter future rule-breaking, not merely the desire to re-balance the population level. Considering that the LKE did not authorise Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, going beyond the steps which are strictly necessary in order to correct the disadvantage gained as a result of Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, is about more than removing the benefit gained, so is unfair.

But you conveniently avoid the fact that during the illegal recruitment period you likely gained active members of your community too - those people will not be affected or lost as a result of a three month ban, thus you will retain the benefits of more active people to contribute to the LKE, to raid etc. long into the future. Not to mention the gloating advertisement to new nations now that the LKE is the largest imperialist power in NS, something that can continue to be leveraged for further recruitment.

I'm not even sure a three month ban is enough.

We have already pointed out in separate posts that we of the LKE understand the interest of the administrative team to place a correction on our population. However, the fact stands that we had no awareness of the illegal script's running as the matter was not made aware to us until this thread was first made by Sedgistan. Upon the initial incidents relating to Frak's involvement with TBR - Bob Moran fled Nationstates and has been unreachable to all of us in the leadership of the LKE. Because he was not around for any kind of questioning (having been conveniently missing since the 22nd of April) we were left with no choice to declare him an enemy of the state in our region for both the charges of overstepping his mandate by violating the Nationstates rules in using an illegal script emulating manual recruitment that we ourselves did not authorize and for his second violation of fraternizing with a player in regards to Nationstates who also so happened to be a fairly long time enemy of our region. Normally we would have provided for some kind of trial and investigation, but he was long gone.

The fact of the matter is that he left us holding a bag that we never asked for and did not ourselves commit. By this point it has been acknowledged by those of us in the LKE that there is no denial that we benefited from the turn of events and that correction may be necessary. However, what we feel is that our non-involvement in this matter means that we should not be exacted more punishment than the benefits that we had gained from Bob Moran's illicit actions.

As for being the largest region in the Imperialist Sphere - for a fair portion of the UIAF's existence up until it's recent disbandment in March we maintained a generally higher nation count than our fellow regions and were in fact the largest Imperialist nation prior to Bob Moran's assumption of his duties as Interior Minister and his use of an illegal script implemented without our sanction and obtained from one of our long time enemies - Frak. Your argument of the impact of the script regarding the recruitment telegram is inaccurate - as little has been changed with it even after the UIAF disbanded and I note that the telegram noting that status goes back to at least Early January (Well before Bob Moran assumed Interior duties and had any sanction to even manually recruit.).

To my notice, your statement appears to be a directed attack on the LKE and I will treat it as such in further discussion.

(Reason for edits: Grammar)

[Onderkelkia]

But you conveniently avoid the fact that during the illegal recruitment period you likely gained active members of your community too - those people will not be affected or lost as a result of a three month ban, thus you will retain the benefits of more active people to contribute to the LKE, to raid etc. long into the future.

First, this only covers one of the two significant collateral effects described in point 2 of my previous post (the other significant collateral consequence being the significant risk of greater population loss being sustained than the gain caused by Bob Moran), and it has no bearing on point 1 or point 3.

Second, when new members arrive matters, particularly as most new members do not stay for a long period (only a very small proportion do). It's better to have a stable, consistent flow of citizenship applicants than a sudden rush of some followed by an extended period in which there are none.

Not to mention the gloating advertisement to new nations now that the LKE is the largest imperialist power in NS, something that can continue to be leveraged for further recruitment.

How "can [it] continue to be leveraged for further recruitment"? The restriction means we cannot recruit and, once the restriction is over, our population could be significantly below where it was prior to Bob Moran's illegal script (although we still have not been informed when he instigated it), never mind its current level. In any case, if we were permitted to resume recruitment in the next 3 months, naturally we would not opt to use this point in our telegrams.

I'm not even sure a three month ban is enough.

I'm not even sure if it is worth having this conversation with you, considering your persistent refusal to engage in reasoned discussion, guise of anonymity and choice of the name "Odnar" - with your first post in this topic followed three minutes later by a post from a nation with the name "Keklian".

[Guy]

This is really simple, despite Onder's ad nauseam protestations to the contrary.

Assuming (wrongly, but for the purposes of argument) that it was not the region that illegally recruited, rather one of its individual members.

The problem with letting it slide because most people in LKE didn't know what was happening is:

1. The region as a whole enjoyed a considerable benefit from the cheating, at the expense of regions who followed the rules
2. If a region can blame a single "bad egg," confining punishment to one player while keeping the benefits of the cheating, all regions have a strong incentive to use a series of disposable bad eggs as their recruiter

LKE and TBR have been effectively recruiting at double speed. What suspension does is bring them back into line with what they should have been doing.

The first point here is the relevant one. What [violet] is confirming is that the ban is intended to preclude LKE from obtaining a windfall from illegal recruitment committed by one of its members. I very much doubt that anyone here would argue against the notion that a region must not benefit from illegal recruitment, and so the only argument left is that the punishment was excessive to achieve this goal. Onder does address this:

1. We cannot quantify with any certainty how much of a population loss the LKE will endure as a result of the 3 month restriction. The resulting population loss could be greater than the population gain sustained - either in number or bearing in mind the prestige associated with certain benchmarks.

2. If the rogue recruitment of Bob Moran was consequential, then the cessation of his illegal activity should cause the LKE population to stabilise at a normal level if given time. Clearly, imposing a ban on the LKE recruiting would accelerate that process of stabilisation, but this has collateral consequences for the LKE - including a probability of greater population loss than can be quantifiably justified by the advantage created by Bob Moran's actions and a 3 month period in which we have no inflow of citizenship applicants, which are the life-blood of our forum community - having none for such a lengthy period will cause real damage. These major collateral effects are unnecessary if natural processes are allowed to take their course, eventually leading to a fair result.

1. This is true. Short of manually monitoring the LKE's nation-count however, which is something that I doubt it would argue for (and also means that the penalty loses a lot of certainty) there is no way to impose this penalty with 100% accuracy. I trust Admin's judgment that this is an appropriate length of time, and certainly this lack of precision is no cause to let LKE off without any penalty.

2. Again, this is taking issue with the penalty. The argument is that a complete ban on recruitment would mean new members. This is a questionable proposition in itself (how many of your forum members are new recruits, and how many came through from other regions?). Regardless, while the precise effect on forum population would be uncertain (just as the effect on the regional population), again this uncertainty does not mean that the LKE should go unpenalised. And I doubt that Admin wants to watch your forum population too.

3. Unless the illegal scripts in TBR and LKE were in operation for the same period of time and caused the same number of nations to be recruited, then it makes no sense for the period to be the same if the period has been selected with a view to correcting the aadvantage incurred by each region. Instead, this suggests that the restriction was motivated by the desire to inflict punishment on the LKE and deter future rule-breaking, not merely the desire to re-balance the population level. Considering that the LKE did not authorise Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, going beyond the steps which are strictly necessary in order to correct the disadvantage gained as a result of Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, is about more than removing the benefit gained, so is unfair.

This is the important point. While I am far from convinced of its correctness, as I think Admin means what it says, I'll address it too.

Admin, in the post above, already made the 'bad apple' response to this argument. Onder retorts that on the facts, LKE did not authorise Bob's behaviour, and the region is not just claiming him as a 'bad apple'. The issue is that, notwithstanding any evidence here, this is (i) Not something for Admin to investigate; and (ii) In fact totally irrelevant.

The first proposition is a simple one, and so I won't expand on it much more. It's the second one that matters.

When recruitment telegrams are being sent, it's the region acting. It's the region that sends the recruitment telegram. It's for the region's benefit. And when something goes wrong, it's the region's responsibility.

Onder's response to this has been that since Bob, a Minister, was not really part of the LKE 'government'. The fundamental issue here is that the game does not recognise "LKE's government". It's the region, as an entity, that recruits. The fact that the individual at question acted outside of what more senior regional members may have desired is, again, irrelevant. He was given the power to recruit by the region, and he utilised that power illegally. Just as a corporation acts through natural persons, regions act through nations. And in this case, the LKE acted through Bob.

Let me make this point clearer. When a region allows an individual to recruit, the region is acting through that individual's actions. The consequences of not holding regions as directly liable for their members' actions, when it is regional recruitment, for the benefit of the whole region, the Telegram makes the representation it is made for the region, and it is regions (and only incidentally individuals or nations) that are regulated by recruitment rules would simply be mind-boggingly illogical.

There was the discussion posed beforehand of whether this would be prosecuted as strongly by some of us if this was a defender region. My answer? Of course not. The issue here is precisely that a region illegally gained an advantage, recruiting nations instead of other regions being able to do so, and thus for example hurting the recruitment of my region Spiritus. The fact that it is the LKE means that not only did my region not gain, but the one I am most antithetical to in NS has gained. This isn't about some abstract notion of keeping the rules, this is about actual nations that were gained by my 'opponents' in the game. The rules are enforced in order to ensure no one takes unfair advantage, and this is precisely what happened here.

[Hurdegaryp]

So TBR has fallen or at least been greatly weakened......
And other things in both the GP and RP world are happening.....

It's the NS Spring!

It most certainly is a refreshing change, yes.

[Kaboomlandia]

So TBR has fallen or at least been greatly weakened......
And other things in both the GP and RP world are happening.....

It's the NS Spring!

What, the Yao DOS, the Nephmir DEAT, and the Lazarus coup?
I wouldn't call that the "NS Spring".
Probably one of the more controversial months in NS history, I'll give you that.

[Shadoke]

And I thought January was bad

[Harkback Union]

All right, That's it!
I had enough!
I'm gonna launch a campaign to legalize Scripts!
Who's with me?

[Aksun]

All right, That's it!
I had enough!
I'm gonna launch a campaign to legalize Scripts!
Who's with me?

even if that wasn't sarcastic... If that did work they would not be included. They were punished under the old rules.

[Harkback Union]

All right, That's it!
I had enough!
I'm gonna launch a campaign to legalize Scripts!
Who's with me?

even if that wasn't sarcastic... If that did work they would not be included. They were punished under the old rules.

Nonsense!
We will unban all wrongfully punished script users and lift the Illegal blockades on TBR and TLKE!

Harkback Union 2016!!

[Austria-Hunagry]

even if that wasn't sarcastic... If that did work they would not be included. They were punished under the old rules.

Nonsense!
We will unban all wrongfully punished script users and lift the Illegal blockades on TBR and TLKE!

Harkback Union 2016!!

Harkback Union, just face it, TBR and TLKE have fallen. The scripts could have done more damage, like a data leak that could damage the lives of everyone who opened one of their telegrams. So, your campaign will fail as the moderators have made their decision and many accept it.

[Onderkelkia]

This is really simple, despite Onder's ad nauseam protestations to the contrary.

Assuming (wrongly, but for the purposes of argument) that it was not the region that illegally recruited, rather one of its individual members.

As an entity on the site, a region cannot act collectively - only individual nations. Founder nations are not permitted control of their recruitment activities.

The only basis on which regions as a whole can be regarded as acting collectively is where regional governments have been established and take a decision. Within the regional government of the LKE, Bob Moran had no authority to begin an automated recruitment script and no one else was aware of what he was doing. Construing the actions of a rogue individual acting beyond his remit should to constitute the actions of the LKE as a region is absurd and unfair - if we had known about his actions and tolerated them, that would be a different matter but, unaware of them, the LKE can hardly be responsible.

The first point here is the relevant one. What [violet] is confirming is that the ban is intended to preclude LKE from obtaining a windfall from illegal recruitment committed by one of its members. I very much doubt that anyone here would argue against the notion that a region must not benefit from illegal recruitment, and so the only argument left is that the punishment was excessive to achieve this goal. Onder does address this:

[violet] may have stated that "the ban is intended to preclude LKE from obtaining a windfall from illegal recruitment", but I seriously doubt that was the only motivation in selecting a 3 month period of restriction - otherwise why are the periods of the LKE and TBR restriction the same - unless they were in operation for the same time periods and had the same effects (which has yet to be confirmed, despite queries)? Clearly, elements of retribution and deterrence were also motivations in deciding how to reduce the LKE's population, not merely correcting any unfair advantage gained - this is improper.

The entire language of "punishment" is inappropriate to the matter, because the LKE as a whole was not involved in any wrongdoing.

If there is to be a cooperative effort to work together in resolving the problems of Bob Moran's rogue behaviour, so far this has gone about the wrong way.

1. This is true. Short of manually monitoring the LKE's nation-count however, which is something that I doubt it would argue for (and also means that the penalty loses a lot of certainty) there is no way to impose this penalty with 100% accuracy. I trust Admin's judgment that this is an appropriate length of time, and certainly this lack of precision is no cause to let LKE off without any penalty.

The LKE is far from being "let off"; apart from the major reputation costs from the way this was announced, it faces a significant possibility of a fall in population beyond the point where it would have otherwise have been if Bob Moran's actions never occurred - bearing in mind we were in the 300-350 nations range in January (when Bob Moran first really became involved in our region after our ZetaBoards conversion) and we were over 500 nations in March (when Bob Moran was appointed interior minister for the reasons explained above by the Prime Minister), and that we had a legal API script in operation.

All this for something that Bob Moran had no right to choose to undertake on our behalf and which no one else in the LKE knew about.

This "lack of precision" will mean inflicting damage on the LKE which cannot be merited by the question of correcting any advantage gained. You say you trust "Admin's judgment" that 3 months is an appropriate length. It's clear, from my perspective at least, the 3 months wasn't arrived at from an exercise intended solely to correct any advantage gained by the LKE specifically - or else you would surely see different periods (one way or the other) for the LKE and TBR. Additionally, if it was only about correcting the regional populations, there'd be no basis for applying the sanction to "proxy regions" (i.e. the LKE colonies, where I don't believe Bob Moran had any presence, so he couldn't have possibly have been undertaking his illegal recruitment activity there).

2. Again, this is taking issue with the penalty. The argument is that a complete ban on recruitment would mean new members. This is a questionable proposition in itself (how many of your forum members are new recruits, and how many came through from other regions?). Regardless, while the precise effect on forum population would be uncertain (just as the effect on the regional population), again this uncertainty does not mean that the LKE should go unpenalised. And I doubt that Admin wants to watch your forum population too.

Actually, the key argument of my second point was that if Bob Moran's illegal recruitment was making such a significant difference, then surely its cessation will eventually stabilise the LKE population around a normal level anyway? Imposing a 3 month recruitment restriction (i.e. also banning our legal API script) may accelerate that process, but it also risks going well beyond what is necessary to correct the advantage stemming from Bob Moran's actions.

To answer your question about "how many of your forum members are new recruits, and how many came through from other regions", the LKE gets relatively fewer of its new forum members (at least those who intend to become citizens) from other regions, because of our region's character.

The fact is that the "punishment" imposed is likely to have unnecessary effects on our region which either could not or should not have been intended.

You keep essentially saying that what I'm saying is basically right but "this uncertainty does not mean that the LKE should go unpenalised". Apart from the fact that the population can ultimately be brought back to a normal level without any recruitment restriction, there is big a difference between doing nothing and a 3 month recruitment restriction, which is a very long period indeed and, as I say, doubtless calculated to do more than correct the advantage.

Admin, in the post above, already made the 'bad apple' response to this argument. Onder retorts that on the facts, LKE did not authorise Bob's behaviour, and the region is not just claiming him as a 'bad apple'. The issue is that, notwithstanding any evidence here, this is (i) Not something for Admin to investigate; and (ii) In fact totally irrelevant.

On the contrary, if Admin is going to start punishing entire regions for actions undertaken by individuals that were not under the control of the region, then they have effectively made it their business to investigate. They are bringing themselves into the realms of who did what and who authorised what. The alternative is to make the ridiculous assumption that any nation doing something to benefit any region acts with the authority of that entire region.

They ought to seriously consider whether they really want to be involved in policing in this manner.

When recruitment telegrams are being sent, it's the region acting. It's the region that sends the recruitment telegram. It's for the region's benefit. And when something goes wrong, it's the region's responsibility.

You make three different statements here, none of which follows from any of the others.

The first is that "When recruitment telegrams are being sent, it's the region acting. It's the region that sends the recruitment telegram." That is simply wrong. The region does not click on any button. The regional founder doesn't have the facilities to monitor when illegal scripts are being used. Telegrams are physically, literally sent by individual nations, not regions. The only sense in which the region can be said to have acted is if the regional leadership sanctioned it; that is clearly not the case here because Bob Moran did anyone in the LKE's leadership of what he was doing, never mind gain our consent.

The second is that the LKE benefited. Simply because an act was performed "for the region's benefit" - assuming of course that Bob Moran was intended to help the LKE, considering he was apparently collaborating with Anur-Sanur/Frak who depsises us - does not make it part of the conduct of that region.

Third, that "when something goes wrong, it's the region's responsibility." Unlike the other two issues, this involves a value judgement. Fundamentally, my argument is that region's should only be hold responsible for what they could have reasonably prevented. The LKE could not have stopped Bob Moran because there is no way we could have detected that the telegrams he was sending were not in fact manual but automated. It is therefore unfair to blame the LKE.

Onder's response to this has been that since Bob, a Minister, was not really part of the LKE 'government'.

No, I have not denied that he was part of the LKE Government.

I have denied that, within the LKE Government, he had any authority to sanction this illegal activity or that it constituted an LKE government decision.

I have also denied that he is part of the LKE's official leadership, or could be said to have been part of the LKE's leadership more informally:

Is that an official position that Ministers are not part of the regional leadership of the Land of Kings and Emperors?

Yes, the LKE's official leadership consists of the Emperor, the regents (the Crown Prince, the Prince Imperial and the Lord Protector) and the Prime Minister.

More informally, you might also include the other member of the Imperial Family (the Princess of Vienna, Viktoria Gryfynn), the Deputy Prime Minister, the Speaker of the Estates Common and perhaps the World Assembly Delegate. It would not include ordinary ministers, who are more functionaries than leaders in their responsibilities. No minister, other than the Prime Minister, is vested with decision-making power which would justify calling them a leader really.

No one with any significant decision-making power in the LKE had any idea what Bob Moran was doing.

The fundamental issue here is that the game does not recognise "LKE's government". It's the region, as an entity, that recruits. The fact that the individual at question acted outside of what more senior regional members may have desired is, again, irrelevant. He was given the power to recruit by the region, and he utilised that power illegally. Just as a corporation acts through natural persons, regions act through nations. And in this case, the LKE acted through Bob.

First, in your attempt to ignore the fact that Bob Moran's actions were unauthorised, you say that 'the game does not recognise "LKE's government".'

Next, in an attempt to hold us responsible, you say,'"He was given the power to recruit by the region, and he utilised that power illegally.'

Sorry, but that selective approach is simply contradictory.

The LKE as an in-game region didn't give anyone "the power to recruit"; the power to recruit is given by the game to any nation, without regulation by founders and delegates. If Admin isn't recognising the existence of the LKE's government, what basis is there to regard the LKE as having given Bob Moran the power to recruit? By assuming that the region as a whole bears collective responsibility for endorsing Bob Moran's actions, Admin is crossing the Rubicon into looking into the LKE's regional government - if it does that, it is only fair that it considers the fact that he acted without our knowledge or consent.

Insofar as the statement that ""He was given the power to recruit by the region, and he utilised that power illegally" goes, we have yet to learn whether he set the script up before or after his appointment as interior minister on 8th March. If before, then he can hardly have been said to have been doing it as part of his ministerial office - though of course it was beyond his remit in any case. If after, then that only makes the 3 month restriction look more excessive.

The consequences of not holding regions as directly liable for their members' actions, when it is regional recruitment, for the benefit of the whole region, the Telegram makes the representation it is made for the region

Again, you are conflating the fact that an action might have been carried out "for the benefit of the whole region" with the action becoming part of that region's conduct. The region as on-site entity does not have any conduct, while the LKE as a government never authorised Bob Moran's automated tool.

and it is regions (and only incidentally individuals or nations) that are regulated by recruitment rules would simply be mind-boggingly illogical.

On the contrary, it is "mind-boggingly illogical" to hold the entire region accountable when you are assuming that the LKE's government doesn't exist, and in any case when there is no way anyone else in the LKE could have acted any differently to prevent the situation as we didn't know about it.

In the past, a region was not sanctioned as a whole when, for instance, an individual nation sent telegrams in a UCR (before that rule was dropped) or where an individual nation sent more than one recruitment telegram to a single nation. The nation involved was warned. The rule-breaking here may be on a grander scale, but the appropriate response is to make the punishment proportionally greater for the offending nation, namely making them Delete on Sight - which should constitute a more than sufficient deterrent for any individual that doesn't want to be permanently banned from the site.

It is in fact the move to collective punishment which constitutes the illogical and dangerous step here.

There was the discussion posed beforehand of whether this would be prosecuted as strongly by some of us if this was a defender region. My answer? Of course not. The issue here is precisely that a region illegally gained an advantage, recruiting nations instead of other regions being able to do so, and thus for example hurting the recruitment of my region Spiritus. The fact that it is the LKE means that not only did my region not gain, but the one I am most antithetical to in NS has gained. This isn't about some abstract notion of keeping the rules, this is about actual nations that were gained by my 'opponents' in the game. The rules are enforced in order to ensure no one takes unfair advantage, and this is precisely what happened here.

First, before now, I have not said anything on this point myself - indeed, Evil Lord Sauron observed earlier the point had not been made in the debate.

This issue ought to be above gameplay politics, yet you you have just confessed that your motives for attacking the LKE here essentially come down to gameplay politics namely, that if a defender region was in the same position, you would not be prosecuting the matter so strongly.

I would expect nothing less from any paid-up member of The Rejected Realms establishment, given the enmity which exists between you and the LKE.

[Almonaster Nuevo]

I have been asked to speak for Canada on this issue.

(For those unfamiliar with our history, we are a neutral region, and not in any way aligned with LKE. Last year, a diplomatic misunderstanding with them was used as the excuse for an invasion of Canada.
As others have said, this is an issue which transcends the boundaries of raider/defender/neutral alignment. We are speaking out in the cause of what we see as fair play for all.)

---

Firstly, we would like to make it clear that we appreciate what the moderators do. Everyone should be clear that they have the right and responsibility to make and enforce decisions like this. They cannot be right 100% of the time, but most of the time they do their unpaid job so well that we don't notice it. They do not have the time or abilities to investigate every claim and counter-claim in difficult situations, and must judge as best they can.

That said, the core remit is to keep the game fair and playable for all. The decisions they make need to serve that end.

We have very grave concerns in two areas:
1) The potential for abuse in blaming a region as a whole for the actions of one or more individual nations from that region. All the players in the region will suffer, many of whom will have done nothing wrong.
2) The possibility of false-flag operations being used used to initiate moderator sanctions against a region.
If a policy of punishing the region is rigidly applied, then we believe that there are a number of people within the game who are likely to start taking advantage of that. The eventual effect would be to completely undermine the confidence of the playing community in the moderation team. We see that as a far worse scenario than the possibility of regions gaining members by unfair means.

That is not to say that there should be no attempt to seek out and punish all those involved. The point at issue is one of whether there is an automatic policy of "blame the region", or whether there is (or should be) a more nuanced policy which recognizes that individuals may have been acting on their own behest, or as agents provocateur.

There is an old saying that justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. We believe that eventually if there is a perception that players can 'game' the moderators, then that will destroy the community.


The major difficulty involved as we see it would lie in the ability of the moderators to determine responsibility. They are in effect acting as the police force of the game, and as such would seem to have the right (and we are arguing: the duty) to investigate, but do they have the resources? Do they want to get involved at the relevant level of detail?

In the normal course of events, the moderators are looking at the actions of an individual, and applying any penalties to that individual. They use an evidence-based approach, and there is little doubt as to who was involved.

In this case, the punishment has been applied to a region. Even if some players in the region are involved, it seems likely that there are many others who were not. Why should those players bear a penalty? It could be argued that this will make players more careful about which regions they choose to join. But if they have no way of knowing who is breaking the rules, or if another player can join the region and foolishly or deliberately instigate a mod punishment, then what meaningful choice do they have?

We believe, then, that before a regional punishment is applied, an investigation should take place. There should be some definite evidence that this was something which others in the region knew about and condoned. Without this, the potential for abuse is too great. (There is no need for 'beyond a reasonable doubt', just a specific indicator of involvement.)

---

Looking at specifics, we have some suggestions...

• Recruitment scripts:
  Presumably at some point the game code is 'aware' that nation x has sent a recruitment TG for region y. Would it be possible to keep a count of these cases, and provide a page per region which reports daily counts of who has sent out how many such TGs? That would then allow others in the region to monitor what was going on, and report any problems to the mods themselves. That in turn would make regional responsibility for recruitment violations much more reasonable.
  
  
• Regional punishments:
  There are other potential punishments which might be applied. In particular, for individuals who were known to have collaborated there could be a WA ban, or a period of expulsion from the game.
  If regional punishments remain within policy, we believe there should be some mechanism (such as given above for recruitment) whereby those within a region who would like to act responsibly have some opportunity to intervene.
  
  
• False flag operations:
  We believe these are poisonous in a gaming environment. If there is reason to believe that anyone has attempted to manipulate the moderation system then the punishments should be severe.
  
  
• The policy on regional responsibility:
  In light of what has been said here, could the moderators please put their heads together and issue a statement on why they thing regional punishments are justified, and under what conditions they will be applied.
  
  
• The LKE case:
  Likewise, could the moderators please clarify whether they have actively considered that this may have been a rogue or false-flag operator, and whether they have any indications that others in LKE were involved or complicit. (We are not asking for details of the evidence, just whether such evidence was sought and found). We feel that would go a long way towards reassuring the community that the actions taken were appropriate.

---

We do not know what the facts are in this particular case, and cannot judge who is and is not guilty. We trust the moderators to do that job in line with their usual high standards.

We do have concerns about the policy which seems to be being applied here. We hope that the moderators will take our concerns and suggestions on board and consider the best way forward.


EDIT: grammar.

[Reploid Productions]

As already stated earlier in the thread:

Given how infrequent a situation this is and should be, any future such incidents will be put under the microscope by mods and the techies. I would very strongly caution against trying to mods-as-weapons this hopefully isolated case. Needless to say, especially given this precise possibility, there is no guarantee that the result of future such isolated incidents will be identical, of course dependent on the specific circumstances.

Moderators actually do NOT have the power to implement a regional punishment such as what has been issued to TBR and LKE. At all. That had to be done specifically by [violet]. Which is why any such incident will be put under the microscope, because it's going to take something pretty serious to convince the admin to do it.

This case does not set any precedent on how future cases will be ruled on or punished. Given the nature of it, it is literally case-by-case, and we will have to consider a wide range of criteria. The next time something like this comes up, if it ever does, the specifics of the case could lead to a shorter regional recruiting block. Or a longer one. Or none at all, leaving just the person using the script to be puppetswept. It will depend entirely on the specifics of that case, not on THIS one.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Onderkelkia]

The next time something like this comes up, if it ever does, the specifics of the case could lead to a shorter regional recruiting block. Or a longer one. Or none at all, leaving just the person using the script to be puppetswept. It will depend entirely on the specifics of that case, not on THIS one.

Therefore, may I ask (as you have confirmed that the use of a illegal recruitment script by an individual to recruit for a region will not always lead to a regional punishment), which aspects of this case, in relation to the LKE specifically, justified the application of a regional punishment?

[Wirbanskia]

As already stated earlier in the thread:

Given how infrequent a situation this is and should be, any future such incidents will be put under the microscope by mods and the techies. I would very strongly caution against trying to mods-as-weapons this hopefully isolated case. Needless to say, especially given this precise possibility, there is no guarantee that the result of future such isolated incidents will be identical, of course dependent on the specific circumstances.

Moderators actually do NOT have the power to implement a regional punishment such as what has been issued to TBR and LKE. At all. That had to be done specifically by [violet]. Which is why any such incident will be put under the microscope, because it's going to take something pretty serious to convince the admin to do it.

This case does not set any precedent on how future cases will be ruled on or punished. Given the nature of it, it is literally case-by-case, and we will have to consider a wide range of criteria. The next time something like this comes up, if it ever does, the specifics of the case could lead to a shorter regional recruiting block. Or a longer one. Or none at all, leaving just the person using the script to be puppetswept. It will depend entirely on the specifics of that case, not on THIS one.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

Any attempt to evade this block (for example by recruiting for 'proxy regions') will result in an extension of the block by 1 month per attempt, as well as severe punishment for all players involved.

Sooo, you're saying you'll dish out "severe" punishments for ALL PLAYERS INVOLVED in any recruitment ban evasion. Now, using that same logic, I thought it would have been pretty clear for really anyone to apply that to the actual regional recruitment ban. Seeing as obviously not all 800 something people in TBR or I don't know how many people in LKE actually participated in this cheat, how is it that everyone is being punished in some way? This isn't school, you can't really consider this a playground for everyone's amusement and childish behavior, so why is the collective group being harmed together? Do you guys not have enough evidence that the cheat was being carried out by the specific people stated?

This decision, whether debated at all, is quite frankly unjust, in no way fair at all. Blanket punishing a group for something they honestly either did not know about, or could have cared to look deeply into is basically doing the worst at your volunteered job. Considering the founder/delegate may have known, why have you not looked into it? I'm not going to go around assuming things, I'm looking at both sides and really, they both suck. The same cliche over-used arguments being thrown back and forth, and for what? Really, if anyone here took a long hard look at BOTH sides then maybe we could come up with a fair judgement instead of throwing everyone under the bus.

[Aurum Rider]

It is possible this has been asked, however Halcones developed tools and spreadsheets that predict regional update times, and are instrumental in the operation of raids. Should Halcones be deemed a DoS user of the site, will use of these tools, despite the tools themselves not violating any NS rules themselves, be illegal to use?

[Evil Wolf]

Should Halcones be deemed a DoS user of the site, will use of these tools, despite the tools themselves not violating any NS rules themselves, be illegal to use?

You mean like NS+, which was made by a now DOS player?

No, I wouldn't think so. At the very least, it would go against what ADMIN has ruled in the past.

[Reploid Productions]

Should Halcones be deemed a DoS user of the site, will use of these tools, despite the tools themselves not violating any NS rules themselves, be illegal to use?

You mean like NS+, which was made by a now DOS player?

No, I wouldn't think so. At the very least, it would go against what ADMIN has ruled in the past.

Pretty much. There's a big difference between stuff developed and in circulation before a DOS and stuff created afterward. Plus, there's also an enormous difference between essentially passive tools like spreadsheets and update forecasting tools and active scripts that do things in-game. The recruiting script in this case, besides being made post-DOS by a DOS user, is also entirely and blatantly in violation of the scripting rules.

Of course, from a basic cybersecurity standpoint, always be cautious about who you accept 3rd party software from. NS++ demonstrated in a relatively benign manner that exact risk over a year ago.

[Shogun]

Good to know Reppy, One version of the Scroll of Lore of "The Secret of Steel" is nailed with brass bolts to the hard drive of my ancient Cimmerian Laptop bone catapults, and as far as I know it is legal hammer for working with an anvil of multiverse during updates.

and even there would happen dramatic changes in these matters by Multiversal Administration Heaven, that wouldn't be catastrophic thing as we all have access to This, This, and we all can use This for creation of puppets, which we all can relatively freely move around these, and if needed we can check scrolls like this to know better when it's good time to immigrate. Rest is then pretty much about, work, math, luck and enhusianism for playing The Game.

Old School methods are still there. Only if there would that one other fella for hobbying with. CROM!

[Cephal Talleyrand]

The next time something like this comes up, if it ever does, the specifics of the case could lead to a shorter regional recruiting block. Or a longer one. Or none at all, leaving just the person using the script to be puppetswept. It will depend entirely on the specifics of that case, not on THIS one.

Therefore, may I ask (as you have confirmed that the use of a illegal recruitment script by an individual to recruit for a region will not always lead to a regional punishment), which aspects of this case, in relation to the LKE specifically, justified the application of a regional punishment?

I too would like to see some clarification in regards to that statement.

[Vandoosa]

Sooo, you're saying you'll dish out "severe" punishments for ALL PLAYERS INVOLVED in any recruitment ban evasion. Now, using that same logic, I thought it would have been pretty clear for really anyone to apply that to the actual regional recruitment ban. Seeing as obviously not all 800 something people in TBR or I don't know how many people in LKE actually participated in this cheat, how is it that everyone is being punished in some way? This isn't school, you can't really consider this a playground for everyone's amusement and childish behavior, so why is the collective group being harmed together? Do you guys not have enough evidence that the cheat was being carried out by the specific people stated?

This decision, whether debated at all, is quite frankly unjust, in no way fair at all. Blanket punishing a group for something they honestly either did not know about, or could have cared to look deeply into is basically doing the worst at your volunteered job. Considering the founder/delegate may have known, why have you not looked into it? I'm not going to go around assuming things, I'm looking at both sides and really, they both suck. The same cliche over-used arguments being thrown back and forth, and for what? Really, if anyone here took a long hard look at BOTH sides then maybe we could come up with a fair judgement instead of throwing everyone under the bus.

That gives me a question.. all members of TBR are banned from recruiting.. I am a high ranking member of TBR so I can't recruit for TBR or I'll bet Modsmacked.. Does this also mean I can't recruit for my home region Glorious Nations of Iwaku or friend regions like Alstroemeria? Would that fall under recruiting for "proxy regions" even if those regions are not associated with TBR in any way?

I was planning to help Alstroemeria with recruitment soon but now I am a little worried that might look as if I am trying to get around a ban on recruitment.. I don't wanna get Modsmacked!