Illegal Script Usage

[Desdenea]

It is not possible to raid 5-7 regions every single night. Not without cheating.

I cannot take you seriously anymore. >_>

Why not? I'm right.

[Funkadelia]

... but you're not going to go into detail about that, because you're full of shit.

It is not possible to raid 5-7 regions every single night. Not without cheating.

That's not how it works.... that's now how any of this works.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

I cannot take you seriously anymore. >_>

Why not? I'm right.

Cascade raiding as far as I am aware is perfectly legal. The ability to plan ahead and have World Assembly nations sitting inactive and in reserve is called using switchers. Using switchers is an established tactic of both raiding and some defender circles. The ability to get people together and properly organize them to cascade raid isn't indicative of recruitment methods being used.

[Desdenea]

I cannot take you seriously anymore. >_>

Neither can I. It would appear that Desdenea is grasping straws. Cascade raiding is perfectly possible and I've seen it done and have tagged along on such raids. It takes patience, organization, and coordination/accuracy.

Name one other region that is able to do this and I swear I WILL shut up.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

Neither can I. It would appear that Desdenea is grasping straws. Cascade raiding is perfectly possible and I've seen it done and have tagged along on such raids. It takes patience, organization, and coordination/accuracy.

Name one other region that is able to do this and I swear I WILL shut up.

The Black Hawks? The United Imperial Armed Forces (Prior to dissolution)?

[The Other Otter]

Name one other region that is able to do this and I swear I WILL shut up.

Anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge about game mechanics can buddy up with a friend and tag 20+ regions in an update without breaking a sweat.
-chuckles-

[Ambroscus Koth]

Name one other region that is able to do this and I swear I WILL shut up.

The Black Hawks? The United Imperial Armed Forces (Prior to dissolution)?

[Reploid Productions]

Pretty sure it is the mods responsibility to moderate the game, and not mine...so gfys

1) Mods rely very heavily on player reports, because we cannot read every single forum post, RMB message, and telegram that is posted to the site. So yes, it is our responsibility to moderate the site when we find actionable material. It is your responsibility to report it if you see something we haven't.

2) "Go fuck yourself" is flaming, even when it's in acronym form. Stop that, because flaming is against the site rules.

3) Raiding multiple regions at high speed relies on a perfectly legal tactic called "switching." It is entirely possible to very rapidly cycle one's WA membership from one nation to the next to participate in multiple raids over the 60+ minutes it takes for the update to run.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Kazmr]

If I may ask, since one of your big refrains is 'fairness', what would you define as fair punishment? Purely an intellectual question, but no punishment at all for the region as a whole? A freeze on recruiting for a time equal to Bob using his script?

[The Wolven League]

Best news I've heard all day. TBR had it coming.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

If I may ask, since one of your big refrains is 'fairness', what would you define as fair punishment? Purely an intellectual question, but no punishment at all for the region as a whole? A freeze on recruiting for a time equal to Bob using his script?

A freeze more based on the time he was running the script might be more plausible, or running the ban until we reach our original nation count before he started running the script would seem more realistic to me than putting us entirely at fault for the actions of a rogue subterfuge.

[The GTS]

The collective punishment of 730 individuals, for the actions of one agent, which has since absconded from the targetted collective, exhibits both questionable judgement and morality - it is laughable, that in any community, collective punishment can be seen as a viable option even when the guilty parties are present, much less in instances such as this wherein the guilty party is in fact not only absent but openly reprimanded by the community in question... The admins and moderators of Nationstates have shown their character in this matter, which given the history of collective punishment, raises the question of whether those running this community-based game in any way vet those they would have police us.

[Ainocra]

If these were the actions of an individual that was not associated with your government I would agree with you.
I feel for you but at the end of the day member of your government and not just any member but a cabinet level member, went off the reservation.

Ultimately like it or not that makes your government responsible.

It sucks, but it's not the end. Yall will get through this.

[Consular]

I think Talleyrand and company may be focussing their attention too much on the issue of fault and their supposed lack of it. The moderators/admin to me seem less concerned about fault and more about removing ill-gotten gains, regardless of whether anyone knew the gains were ill-gotten at the time of their acquisition. It's strict liability, so fault is largely irrelevant. There is nothing legally perverse about this approach -- it is reasonable in most legal systems to remove stolen goods if they are indeed stolen in fact, regardless of the belief of the possessor in their honest acquisition.

So in contrast with some of the above posters, who are evidently outraged on a more personal level by this, I think the action was, if not particularly fair, the only correct one possible.

You might therefore find more ground in distinguishing between yourselves and The Black Riders, whose founder appears to have been implicit in the scheme, and argue it disproportionate that you receive the same punishment. Or perhaps argue that the penalty applied is just that, a penalty, rather than an action to restore some balance to your burgeoning and illicitly obtained population, and that it is a sufficiently harsh penalty to cause considerable damage -- which is a line of thought Talleyrand touched on earlier. I don't think there is any other reasonable way for the mods to enforce a loss in your population other than what they have done though, so the best you can hope for would be a reduction in the ban period I think.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

If these were the actions of an individual that was not associated with your government I would agree with you.
I feel for you but at the end of the day member of your government and not just any member but a cabinet level member, went off the reservation.

Ultimately like it or not that makes your government responsible.

It sucks, but it's not the end. Yall will get through this.

Again I have to point out that we've frequently inquired with Bob Moran about his recruitment activities on the grounds that we figured he was doing a good job. While he held the capacity of being our Minister of the Interior, he omitted his use to us of an illegal manual recruitment script that was developed by a Delete on Sight player, adding insult to injury.

Even if he were required to place logs of the nations recruited - he could have easily falsified the logs by reducing the amount of nations listed. Even if he didn't edit the logs it would have just looked to us like heavy manual recruitment. The leadership of the LKE neither has the tools to detect rule violations on the NS server, but everything hinged on the honesty or lack thereof of the person involved in that violation. He explained nothing to us and when the whole situation with Frak started, Bob Moran fled right off Nationstates without so much as two words said and we were inevitably in the dark about this matter until the statement involving our recruitment ban was posted today. Our government cannot be held liable for the actions of someone we have already internally punished using the powers of enforcement we have on our forum and regional controls of our in game region.

[Consular]

Our government cannot be held liable for the actions of someone we have already internally punished using the powers of enforcement we have on our forum and regional controls of our in game region.

Yes. Yes it can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability

[Cephal Talleyrand]

I think Talleyrand and company may be focussing their attention too much on the issue of fault and their supposed lack of it. The moderators/admin to me seem less concerned about fault and more about removing ill-gotten gains, regardless of whether anyone knew the gains were ill-gotten at the time of their acquisition. It's strict liability, so fault is largely irrelevant. There is nothing legally perverse about this approach -- it is reasonable in most legal systems to remove stolen goods if they are indeed stolen in fact, regardless of the belief of the possessor in their honest acquisition.

So in contrast with some of the above posters, who are evidently outraged on a more personal level by this, I think the action was, if not particularly fair, the only correct one possible.

You might therefore find more ground in distinguishing between yourselves and The Black Riders, whose founder appears to have been implicit in the scheme, and argue it disproportionate that you receive the same punishment. Or perhaps argue that the penalty applied is just that, a penalty, rather than an action to restore some balance to your burgeoning and illicitly obtained population, and that it is a sufficiently harsh penalty to cause considerable damage -- which is a line of thought Talleyrand touched on earlier. I don't think there is any other reasonable way for the mods to enforce a loss in your population other than what they have done though, so the best you can hope for would be a reduction in the ban period I think.

I've had a few points in all of my arguments so far. Fault is of course one of those matters that I have been discussing but I have also touched upon the severity of the punishment in relation to our region's actual involvement in the violation. Obviously - I can see the merits of the Admin team wanting to restore our nation count to an earlier level to undo the gains gotten from the rule violations. But at the same time it has also been touched upon that the ban and it's enforcement may very well do far more damage to the region than we will have gained from the illicit population gains and considering that nobody in actual power outside of the rogue agent involved were actually aware and in fact we were caught off guard and were furious when we saw the statement of the ban.

I raise the issue that the way the moderators handled the lone actions of a single individual working outside of the confines of the region and it's figures of authority opens the door for future saboteurs who might have nothing less to lose using such rule violations in excess to harm the region that they targeted - be it out of revenge or spite. We cannot be for sure that it was the reason why Bob did what he did because he fled Nationstates the moment the scandals involving him started so we had no ability to get to the bottom of his actions. But it does open the door for future saboteurs who so choose that they have nothing really left to gain or lose in Nationstates to use recruitment rule violations of this caliber to do damage.

Considering we've been collectively punished for the lone actions of a single user who kept us in the dark - any damage done to our region that is more than what we gained from his actions is a travesty.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

Our government cannot be held liable for the actions of someone we have already internally punished using the powers of enforcement we have on our forum and regional controls of our in game region.

Yes. Yes it can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability

The point of the matter here is that we as a region did not have the tools to properly detect his actions outside of taking him for his word. We did not know of the illegal script's existence, let alone who developed it or that Bob Moran had it while he was in the post of our Interior Ministry.

Our entire region is being collectively punished for the actions of one man that was in no way coordinated with any other member of the government, upper leadership, or even region. He went completely rogue and outside of our confines to police his actions or even act on what he was doing. Considering he gave us no indication of what was going on and he frequently lied to us on what he was doing. We weren't even able to get a hold of him when the scandal involving Frak started, let alone when the recruitment ban was issued upon us. He went above and beyond our ability to correct what was going on because we lacked the tools to take him for anything but his word. Even him posting logs is a matter of taking his word for it.

[Consular]

Evidently the admins/mods weighed up the competing interests, and decided the danger of regions using denial of knowledge to escape liability (a fear [violet] voiced) to be greater than that of individuals using the strict liability approach to sabotage other regions. Both are indeed potential problems, but I'm inclined to agree the former would be more likely to be abused than the latter, and that seems to be the conclusion the mods reached in their own balancing assessment. It's a risk assessment basically, and unfortunately you've fallen on the bad side of a decision that was made knowing it was bigger than just this case and just your region. Unfortunate, but justice often has to be harsh like that. Further, while I don't know whether this factor mattered at all to them, Moran was in fact a member of your government and charged with the job of recruitment -- he was not some random saboteur who very obviously had nothing to do with the region, but a reasonably trusted official in your government -- which likely informed the fear that you could be (I'm not saying you are) denying everything by lying through your teeth about lack of knowledge.

[Ainocra]

Something I'm fond of saying at work comes to mind

It doesn't matter what you know, only what you can prove.

All that can be proven is that a sitting cabinet level member of your government performed illegal acts which resulted in a net gain for your region.

As much as it sucks, and as much as I believe you, I can't support that belief with any proof.

I understand your frustration, but I don't realistically see your situation changing.

[Consular]

Yes. Yes it can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_liability

The point of the matter here is that we as a region did not have the tools to properly detect his actions outside of taking him for his word. We did not know of the illegal script's existence, let alone who developed it or that Bob Moran had it while he was in the post of our Interior Ministry.

Our entire region is being collectively punished for the actions of one man that was in no way coordinated with any other member of the government, upper leadership, or even region. He went completely rogue and outside of our confines to police his actions or even act on what he was doing. Considering he gave us no indication of what was going on and he frequently lied to us on what he was doing. We weren't even able to get a hold of him when the scandal involving Frak started, let alone when the recruitment ban was issued upon us. He went above and beyond our ability to correct what was going on because we lacked the tools to take him for anything but his word. Even him posting logs is a matter of taking his word for it.

"A rule specifying strict liability makes a person legally responsible for the damage and loss caused by his/her acts and omissions regardless of culpability. Under strict liability, there is no requirement to prove fault, negligence or intention."

Your lack of knowledge and (arguable) lack of negligence is irrelevant in the way the admins are applying this rule. That's what I was trying to say, and what you seem incapable of comprehending.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

Evidently the admins/mods weighed up the competing interests, and decided the danger of regions using denial of knowledge to escape liability (a fear [violet] voiced) to be greater than that of individuals using the strict liability approach to sabotage other regions. Both are indeed potential problems, but I'm inclined to agree the former would be more likely to be abused than the latter, and that seems to be the conclusion the mods reached in their own balancing assessment. It's a risk assessment basically, and unfortunately you've fallen on the bad side of a decision that was made knowing it was bigger than just this case and just your region. Unfortunate, but justice often has to be harsh like that. Further, while I don't know whether this factor mattered at all to them, Moran was in fact a member of your government and charged with the job of recruitment -- he was not some random saboteur who very obviously had nothing to do with the region, but a reasonably trusted official in your government -- which likely informed the fear that you could be (I'm not saying you are) denying everything by lying through your teeth about lack of knowledge.

Unfortunately, I am not inclined to agree as the LKE has a long history of following the precedents of recruitment rules and that until today there was never any such indication of a violation. As precedent would speak - without an ability to detect his actions I find that holding us completely liable to take the fall for his actions is a sham considering no further investigation was done into our region after they detected the actions of Bob Moran. Considering we lack their same tools of detection and that we weren't given any fair chance originally to explain ourselves or allow proper proof to be provided - This is more like a kangaroo court than any sense of justice being imposed. We're being expected to just accept liability for something we could neither detect or know about and I will argue that it's not justice until they moment they lock this thread and close down discussion.

[SillyString]

I wonder if the mods are investigating the invasion of TBR for illegal recruitment, given that any move orders by TG have to be marked as recruitment messages.

The moderators have said that they do not generally police all telegrams for being correctly marked as recruitment, but that any telegram asking a nation to move regions that isn't marked as a recruitment telegram is reportable by its recipient.

I'd really like [violet] to weigh in on this question some more, because it's hugely problematic to me. I prefer to play by the rules even when rule violations are unlikely to be discovered, so I'm unhappy brushing this off with a simple "Oh, probably won't get caught." Irrelevant of the current situation in TBR, which is somewhat unique, I have the following questions:

1) If the delegate and/or founder of a region are shutting the region down and moving elsewhere, are they required to mark their TGs to regionmates informing them of this as recruitment telegrams? Does the answer vary depending on whether the message is "we're all going to X, and you're free to come with" or "Come to X"?

2) If a military commander in a region regularly communicates with troops about deployments via TG, are they required to mark their TGs to their soldiers (soldiers who voluntarily signed up for an element of the game that directly requires moving regions) as recruitment telegrams? Like before, does this change based on whether the TG is phrased "There is a mission in X" versus "Move to X"?

3) What telegrams that don't ask a nation to move regions additionally count as recruitment? Requests to join forums, or maybe specifically forums that aren't the forum of the region the nation is in? Telling someone about some cool other thing (region, org, whatever) but not asking/telling them to join? Other?

Answering these questions would greatly clarify things, so thank you in advance.

[Cephal Talleyrand]

The point of the matter here is that we as a region did not have the tools to properly detect his actions outside of taking him for his word. We did not know of the illegal script's existence, let alone who developed it or that Bob Moran had it while he was in the post of our Interior Ministry.

Our entire region is being collectively punished for the actions of one man that was in no way coordinated with any other member of the government, upper leadership, or even region. He went completely rogue and outside of our confines to police his actions or even act on what he was doing. Considering he gave us no indication of what was going on and he frequently lied to us on what he was doing. We weren't even able to get a hold of him when the scandal involving Frak started, let alone when the recruitment ban was issued upon us. He went above and beyond our ability to correct what was going on because we lacked the tools to take him for anything but his word. Even him posting logs is a matter of taking his word for it.

"A rule specifying strict liability makes a person legally responsible for the damage and loss caused by his/her acts and omissions regardless of culpability. Under strict liability, there is no requirement to prove fault, negligence or intention."

Your lack of knowledge and (arguable) lack of negligence is irrelevant in the way the admins are applying this rule. That's what I was trying to say, and what you seem incapable of comprehending.

The core of the matter why I refuse to accept that is that the admin/mod team made no further attempt to investigate our region beyond their detection of Bob Moran's actions. We weren't asked to explain what was going on, we weren't given any chance to defend ourselves originally against the violation until after the punishment was handed down and at that point it was too late. I will not accept the idea of strict liability when no further investigation was made beyond their initial catch of Bob Moran's work.

[Vaajan]

Well that was unexcepted for me is this the first time TBR was founderless?