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by The United Colonies of Earth » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:47 am
by Onderkelkia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:58 am
Great Brigantia wrote:Let's establish what actually happened in 2013. First, Phoenix King Feux -- at the time acting under the legal authority of the Emerald Kingdom of Lazarus via Mandate 7, the constitution agreed to even by the later purged imperialists -- purged several imperialists from the region. Then, the People's Republic of Lazarus was established under Chairwoman Harmoneia. Again, the establishment of the PRL was done entirely in accordance with Mandate 7.
Great Brigantia wrote:Technically, neither of these were done by the NPO, though the purge -- which was separate from and preceded establishment of the PRL -- was very suspiciously announced by then-Senator AMOM in "The NPO's Retort." One can possibly make an argument that the purge was conducted by the NPO but one cannot make the argument that the PRL was established by the NPO.
Great Brigantia wrote:The PRL was established by the people of Lazarus, led by Chairwoman Harmoneia, who had already served as Delegate four times by that point and who had at that point been a Lazarene native for nearly a decade.
Great Brigantia wrote:You will also note that, while somewhat dubious, there were better grounds for the purge of imperialists in 2013. NES had, in fact, discussed perpetrating the imperialists' own coup d'etat against Lazarus, a discussion that was revealed in "The NPO's Retort."
Great Brigantia wrote:Sorry, but no. This faux neutrality that you, NES, OnderKelkia, Balder, et al., are claiming has to be dealt with. What all of you are doing is providing rhetorical support to the NPO and its puppet regime, the NLO, by attempting to conflate the NLO with the PRL, and in so doing, attempting to undermine the legitimacy of the PRL. When the legitimacy of the PRL is undermined, when this thought is planted in people's minds that it is as rogue a regime as the NLO, the NLO can appear to be "eh, not so bad." That is what you, NES, Balder, et al., are doing here, and that is unquestionably a form of support -- and a dangerous and insidious form of it. That you are clever, or think you are, does not mean that you are neutral.
by Great Brigantia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:26 am
Belschaft wrote:You can assert anything you like about the PRL Cormac, but the fact remains that it was established in the aftermath of an illegal and NPO orchestrated purge of a third of Lazarus' citizenry, and was so established by among others most of the figures now behind the NLO. It was and is an illegally established regime created by the NPO, and the fact that the NPO has now created a new and fully subservient puppet regime doesn't retroactively change the nature of the PRL remnant who the NPO decided to ditch.
Yao wrote:Cormac, nothing illegal, by the PRL's standards, occurred here.
by Lazarite Campinia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am
by Great Brigantia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:00 am
Onderkelkia wrote:First, your claim that the NPO's purge was lawful is outright inaccurate. The Constitution required approval from at least 75% of the legislature for removing its members. 30% of the legislature was removed and prevented from voting by proposing the removals in bulk rather than by voting on each individually - under that process, you could propose removing any amount of people and have the remaining members remove them. Each removal should have required the requisite majority from the entirety of the legislature other than the member who was being voted on. What happened was illegal and undemocratic.
Onderkelkia wrote:Second, to pretend that "King Feux" was acting on behalf of Lazarus, when AMOM announced his illegal actions beforehand, is to accept the NPO's lies. It is simply incredible. It requires you to suspend all disbelief despite knowing what we do about the NPO and its motivations in Lazarus, then and now.
Onderkelkia wrote:The establishment of the PRL depended on the illegal removal of 30% of the Lazarus legislature. Having defenestrated a substantial portion of those who might have disagreed with them, naturally the NPO and those defenders supporting them (i.e. Harmoneia, et al.) were able to get their way subsequently.
So the purge and the establishment of the PRL were directly tied.
Onderkelkia wrote:Moreover, doing the two separately was better for public relations purposes than doing them together (indeed, I recall AMOM highlighting Feux announcing he was standing down as delegate right after the purge as if that was some sort of 'gotcha' moment for the NPO, as if they had pulled some successful magic trick off). It was pure theatre, as Feux has now confessed. You are basically uncritically repeating the NPO's propaganda of the time. The fact that the NPO have now backed away from that propaganda, because it no longer serves their purposes, does not suddenly make what they said then any bit truer.
You describe the "NPO's Retort" as very suspicious. It was AMOM announcing a purge of Lazarus on behalf of the NPO, just as he announced the NLO now.
Onderkelkia wrote:As the quotes which NES brought up above illustrate, Harmoneia was functioning as a useful idiot - knowingly or not - for the NPO. Doubtless Harmoneia's long-standing defender sympathies made her respond to the idea of removing "imperialists" on the grounds of creating drama - which DYP has just admitted was his motivation, as another long-standing Lazarus native, for getting rid of Griffin - more favourably than she otherwise would have been inclined to.
Griffin was a long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms. Harmoneia was perfectly happy to support the NPO's action against her.
Onderkelkia wrote:Neutrality is supporting neither side. Endorsing neither the NLO nor the PRL is therefore the essence of neutrality in this situation.
Unlike the defender world, which supported the NPO when it was on its side and now opposes the NPO when it turned against it, our position is genuine and coherent. The LKE has consistently made the very same arguments, outlined in this post, since 2013 - our position on what happened in 2013 is unaffected by the latest events. What we say is not some ruse designed to support the NPO; it is merely continuation of exactly what we were saying previously.
What you want us to do is change our beliefs because they are politically inconvenient for the PRL. I am not going to do that.
The People's Republic of Lazarus isn't legitimate - it was illegally created through a purge conducted and announced by the New Pacific Order. The fact that the PRL has now broken off following a disagreement into government-in-exile and the NLO does not somehow transform the PRL's legitimacy.
by Venico » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:57 am
Belschaft wrote:I do not and will not support the illiberal, dictatorial and illegitimate Lazarene regime calling itself the New Lazarene Order. Neither do I support the illiberal, dictatorial and illegitimate former Lazarene regime calling itself the Peoples Republic of Lazarus. Both were formed via illegal purges of the regional population, removing elements of the citizenry who disagreed with the Delegate to allow the creation of a new regime tied politically and ideologically to the New Pacific Order. Both regimes were able to find willing stooges from the regional population to prop up their coup and act as apologists.
by Onderkelkia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:12 am
Great Brigantia wrote:It doesn't sound like it was unambiguously illegal, depending on the wording of the clause(s) in question. Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of Mandate 7 that I can actually access, but if you can provide the wording that would be stellar.
Great Brigantia wrote:What I do know is that the argument that Feux's actions were legal was accepted by the vast majority of the interregional community, and your arguments against their legality have been rejected time and time again for two years.
Great Brigantia wrote:First, Harmoneia is more than just some random defender supporting the NPO for foreign interests. Harmoneia is, as has by now been made clear, a decade-long native of Lazarus and has served as Delegate on five occasions. If you're going to actually accuse her of pursuing foreign interests to the detriment of Lazarus with a straight face, I would hate to play poker with you.
Drop Your Pants wrote:Harmoneia and DYP were entirely happy to support the purge of long time Lazarus resident and former Delegate Victoria Griffin when she was purged.
It created drama. Drama is good. Gave us something to write about for a while.
Great Brigantia wrote:To address the rest of your argument, we first need to establish that the 2013 purge was unambiguously illegal. You have not done that.
Great Brigantia wrote:I suspect all of that is basically true, but it is irrelevant to whether the events of 2013 constituted a coup d'etat. What is relevant here is whether the PRL is the legal, legitimate government of Lazarus, not what kind of image the NPO wanted to portray.
Great Brigantia wrote:It's also entirely possible that Harmoneia, who as we've established is a longtime native of Lazarus and not some foreign defender agent as you're portraying her, thought she was doing what was best for Lazarus.
Great Brigantia wrote:Your "long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms" also left Lazarus wallowing in inactivity in order to preserve a neutral ideology that benefited foreign interests, namely your interests and the interests of the user-created region in which Griffin was Founder and Kaiserin at the time, The New Inquisition.
Great Brigantia wrote:Please don't pretend that a native of Lazarus could not have reasonably come to the conclusion that removing NES and his imperialist cohort from the region was in the region's best interests.
Great Brigantia wrote:Actually, no, Onder, I don't care if you change your beliefs -- though you should support the PRL, even quite apart from any arguments regarding legitimacy.
Great Brigantia wrote:Even if you don't regard the PRL as legitimate, its restoration is vital to creating the sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus that all of you claim to believe is the best course for Feeders and Sinkers. Such a Lazarus will not be created under any other circumstances.
Great Brigantia wrote:But because restoration of the PRL may also restore a defender Lazarus, and a Lazarus that is an FRA member region, you will not support the PRL's restoration, and you are demonstrating exactly how much you care about Feeder and Sinker sovereignty: Not at all, if a sovereign Feeder or Sinker chooses to also be a defender Feeder or Sinker.
Great Brigantia wrote:Let me ask you this: When and if the NPO comes knocking in Balder or The West Pacific, what possible incentive will the rest of the world have to help you in liberating those regions, if you turn your backs on Lazarus now? You don't care about the
sovereignty of our regions, why should we care about the sovereignty of yours? We can either stand together or we can fall apart. You are currently opting for the latter and it would be in your best interests and the best interests of your allies to reconsider.
Great Brigantia wrote:In any event, I don't care if you change your beliefs. I would prefer that you be quiet, though. Neutrality is not claiming to support neither side but intentionally, vocally, and frequently doing everything you can to undermine one side to benefit the other. We all know that you, NES, Rachel, and Belschaft have not regarded the PRL as legitimate and we've known it since 2013. Repeating it daily and at any opportunity while the PRL's legitimacy is of importance to its success, and the perception that the PRL is not legitimate is vital to the NPO/NLO's success, is not at all neutral. If you want to actually be neutral, do those of us who aren't neutral and would like to see a sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus a favor, and kindly butt out.
by Great Brigantia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:25 am
by Klaus Devestatorie » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:27 am
Great Brigantia wrote:As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.
by Glen-Rhodes » Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:58 am
by Belschaft » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:14 am
by Yao » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:34 am
Great Brigantia wrote:Yao wrote:Cormac, nothing illegal, by the PRL's standards, occurred here.
This claim, like Belschaft's claims, is fact-free.
It's entirely possible, and probable, that Stujenske has violated Mandate 8 in numerous other ways, but this is more than enough to establish that his actions, which form the foundation of the NLO regime, were illegal. Even if you point to the Chairman's power to amend Mandate 8, he didn't make such amendments, he just announced the dissolution of constitutional institutions, the removal of Lazarenes from offices to which they were constitutionally elected, and the unconstitutional purge of Lazarenes without amendment to Mandate 8.
Moreover, were he to now offer an amended Mandate 8 with Sections Two and Seven intact, in an attempt to legitimize the NLO, it would be too late -- for while he has been carrying out his coup d'etat without amending Mandate 8, the People's Congress and a citizens' plebiscite has voted no confidence in him and he has been removed as Chairman of the People's Republic of Lazarus, which means he now lacks the power to legally amend Mandate 8. Even if somehow he did legally amend it -- which, again, I stress is not possible -- he would have to leave Sections Two and Seven intact, which means that Funkadelia and all Lazarenes purged would still be entitled to appeal to the People's Court and a fair trial, because those rights cannot be removed from Mandate 8, only added to.
In no sense is the NLO legal by the PRL's standards. Nothing Stujenske has done in the last ten days is legal by the PRL's standards.
I'll respond to Onder's points in a separate post. This one is long enough.
by Todd McCloud » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:43 am
Solorni wrote:Are we sure that Harmoneia was banjected and didn't just wander off and leave accidentally?
by Onderkelkia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:10 am
Great Brigantia wrote:As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.
by Fatdul » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:25 am
Mandate 7
The Constitution of Lazarus
Preamble
Recognizing the inherent responsibility of authority in Lazarus, we lay forth the following government to be known as The Lazarus Mandate, along with such policies that will ensure efficient management and orientation of those nations that find themselves amongst the community of Lazarus, reborn or immigrant.
The Delegate
The Delegate serves as the sovereign of the region and as such, holds sole power regarding regional affairs. The Delegate, however, can delegate such power to others. On the first week of March, the Emerald Council will elect a member to the office of Delegate. Election periods will be a nine-day period that is to be held starting in the first week of March. Three days will be devoted to nominations and campaigning. The following three will be devoted to more campaigning and platform presentations and the final three will be dedicated to voting. At any point more than two months after the election or re-election of the Delegate, the Delegate seat may be challenged. A challenge must be seconded by two other Council members for it to be recognized and the election period to start. Upon the resignation or absence of the Delegate from the forums or Nationstates site for more than 7 days, their nominated successor shall become the Delegate and assume all their powers and responsibilities.
The Emerald Cabinet
At his or her sole discretion, the Delegate may create any Cabinet Office and appoint any citizen to it. The Delegate must nominate a successor whom will be a member of the Cabinet, at the start of their term. All appointments made by the Delegate must be confirmed by a simple majority vote of the Council. Delegation of power to said office is to the extent that the Delegate deems appropriate. Offices may create subordinate positions within their authority, and with the approval of the Delegate, may entrust powers to the subordinate positions and nominate members to fulfill the duties allocated to them.
The Emerald Council
To become a citizen of Lazarus one must complete an application form satisfying the requirements set by the Delegate whom may then grant or reject it. Only nations that have held citizenship in Lazarus for over 30 days are entitled to apply to the Emerald Council. An application is made to the Council in their forum area where they may ask questions of the applicant, especially regarding their past record and future ambitions. After the applicant receives two nominations from existing Council members an admission vote is initiated. This requires a simple majority support of the Council for the application to be approved. The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote. Council members have the right to propose any Motion, Law or Mandate amendment they desire, except Treaties which must be proposed by the Delegate, and they all require a 75% vote. All votes without specified time limits last a maximum of a week. Abstentions and absences are not counted as participating voters.
The Emerald Nobility
The Delegate will be recognized as the head of the Emerald Family and King|Queen of the region under their own custom title. The Delegate may bestow special titles of nobility to citizens that are found deserving of special recognition for service to Lazarus. The Emerald Family shall consist of the current Delegate and any members that have been recognized as Delegate in the past. All Lazarene citizens will be recognized with Baronetcy. This is not to suggest that titles are reserved exclusively for Lazarenes. Nobility ranking will consist of the following though special titles may be granted to members by the Delegate not labeled below:
- Baron/Baroness
- Viscount/Viscountess
- Earl/Countess
- Marquess/Marchioness
- Duke/Duchess
In the event that the sitting Delegate, past Delegates, or members with titles of nobility are expelled from the region for misconduct, they will no longer be recognized as a member of the royal family and or have all titles of nobility removed.
The Emerald Legion
The Emerald Legion shall be the official military of Lazarus. It shall be overseen by the Delegate and consist of volunteer conscripts from amongst the native forum members.
If the Delegate so chooses, he/she may appoint one general, to be known as General of the Emerald Legion, who shall be responsible for assisting in missions, the creation of and changes to regulations, and recruiting for the Emerald Legion. In order to be considered for the position of General of the Emerald Legion, a nation must be part of the Emerald Council.
Members of the Emerald Legion are obligated to endorse the Delegate whenever their World Assembly nation is present in Lazarus, in order to keep the delegacy secure.
Mandate 7 wrote:The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote.
by Onderkelkia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:30 am
Fatdul wrote:As it seems relevant to the discussion, I have braved the "Chairman wants you logged in" javascript of the old Emerald Kingdom / PRL forums to find a copy of Mandate 7:
[...]
This of course includes the relevant wording:The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote.
The follow-up question would be who were the members of the Emerald Council prior to the vote and who was expelled.
by Gerzam » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:32 am
Great Brigantia wrote:As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.
by Fatdul » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:43 am
Onderkelkia wrote:Fatdul wrote:As it seems relevant to the discussion, I have braved the "Chairman wants you logged in" javascript of the old Emerald Kingdom / PRL forums to find a copy of Mandate 7:
[...]
This of course includes the relevant wording:
The follow-up question would be who were the members of the Emerald Council prior to the vote and who was expelled.
Thank you for providing this.
My understanding is that the members who were expelled constituted at least 30% of the Council.
On that clause, there is no basis on which any of them could have been legally excluded from voting on the matter.
by Funkadelia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:44 am
by Onderkelkia » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:49 am
Fatdul wrote:Onderkelkia wrote:Thank you for providing this.
My understanding is that the members who were expelled constituted at least 30% of the Council.
On that clause, there is no basis on which any of them could have been legally excluded from voting on the matter.
I ask who were members of the Council and who were expelled because the Council did not consist of all citizens. Entry to the Emerald Council appears to have been fairly restricted, actually.
by Unibot III » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:54 am
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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