The OFO: good or bad for Osiris

[Klaus Devestatorie]

I may not know what I'm talking about, but plenty of people agree with me.

Can you please stop talking about Osiris' internal affairs now

[Venico]

I'd say these are all fair points, Wintermoot. I'll address a few things but overall, good post. Ok so personally, the reason I left is because I needed to build a region that was mine and had my ideals at heart. I can't force that on Osiris and I also am not willing to hold hollow citizenship in a region. To me it's just an insult to the place.

The low endorsement count was actually an issue with Asta's delegacy as well. Her endo count dropped to ~80 or so at its lowest and that is why she requested foreign support because she was drifting dangerously close to her Security Council members. A temporary limit was set lower (I believe it was 70) for the SC. This made Biyah call Asta on a potential coup which led to the mediated talks which I hosted (logs are on the old forum). *edit* I'll also claim some responsibility for the reason it hasn't rebounded. When you shut the gates to your region for awhile it definitely scared some people who might have endorsed but weren't knowledgeable of the conflict, away. I think Raven's fairly active regional telegrams/talks with the delegate will encourage more people to support him via the WA.

Campinia's puppets were banjected because they held considerable influence in the region and he was (if I recall correctly) a part of a region that declared it would lend military support to overthrow the OFO. I won't make apologies for actions regarding influence in a time of war. Some of them were iffy but I'd rather err on the side of caution and prudence. I don't know the full story about Mahaj but I recall something of a fight in #osi and he was banjected after that. The OFO has no laws regarding the rights of non-citizens. Which brings me to my next point, defenders frankly just haven't been applying for citizenship in Osiris. I wish more would and I wish that Cam had become an integrated part of the community. The charges were silly but so was his involvement in the region (doesn't justify anything). To call him a part of Osiris is a stretch. I did my best to over-welcome him because I didn't want accusations of anti-defender being thrown our way (I guess I failed in that regard). But if you look at the citizenship logs, maybe 4 defenders have applied? Also Raven is taking a defender wife so I guess that's a thing? Osiris isn't very diverse in that part and the demographic has changed. If that's good or bad is up to you.

Empire is used on a lot of things (I may be guilty of that). Anytime someone oversteps their bounds it's "You empire look alike!" I try to only say what I personally saw and what are documented facts. So basically Asta's regime and 2012 coup. To say Empire wasn't a large problem in Osiris is a lie. To say it was the only problem is too. I could go on a rant here but I won't. The OFO was founded with a civil war against the Empire. It's not too surprising that they are being blamed for everything.

The Pharaoh in my eyes is a bit weaker but also keeps checks in place such as having to confirm SC members and vice delegates. The power structure also allows a Pharaoh to remain until the community challenges his reign. I'm honestly not the best at analyzing the power structure of the consty, I've looked at it so much I just have tunnel vision so an outside observer may have a fresher take.

Finally I want to end how I began, with me. =P I will eventually return to Osiris, she is the reason why I still enjoy this game. The friends I have there are still some of the closest people I have in NS. Venico (the nation) is there for the Executive to use at their leisure. I won't be raising WA unless requested to or if I apply for citizenship again. I want to see Malice with a solid foundation and to the point where it doesn't require a constant engagement from me. Maybe then I'll have free time to frolic among other regions, but until then that's where I'll be.

[Zaolat]

I liked Earth Madjack pre drama era better, but this is alright.

Rose-tinted glasses! The Madjack era was the start of the fall. You can pinpoint the failure of the region to Madjack's refusal to ban Biyah, who so eloquently abused Osiris' poorly crafted constitution, for committing a coup d'etat supposedly to show the region how weak its security regime was.

How many freaking times do I have to tell you that wasn't just on him? Only two people could allow Biyah et al to stay. That was Georgie and I.

This has been explained before and at you in particular, do I need to get quotes? It was also a lot more complicated than that too. You can't condemn either of us for it.

[Anumia]

I think Raven is doing a good job and constantly putting Osiris under the microscope and hyperexamining every little thing that goes on there is precisely what is going to hinder their progress towards long-term stability. If the world continues to expect a collapse into anarchy or corruption once more, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Venico]

It's also bad for Venico's health as he must then stay up late writing long posts to give his side of things. =P

[Lord Kevan Stark]

My puppets were not that high influence since I hardly ever kept WA on them but whatever.. The influence that was there should be gone now though.. And AFAIK Spiritus has retracted that statement.. Now I don't have any plans on returning to Osiris anytime soon, but I really dislike being on the same banlist as nazi spammers!

[Venico]

If the delegacy was in my hands* your puppets would most likely be unbanned by now and they would be allowed back in. And at the time while none of them held anything beyond medium influence, they were all together a substantial threat if they were to be used.

*May the Overseer never put me in that seat again because my Lord I think it gave me gray hairs

[The Dourian Embassy]

Douria and Cormac conspired to entrap Cameron into advocating your overthrow. When they failed, they manipulatively interpreted the IRC chat logs to make it look like he did anyways. I'm judging the region based off two long-term, well-respected members believing what they were doing was okay, a belief fostered by the cultural deficits of Osiris.

You're just making stuff up and saying it now. You can't just pretend you know what I'm thinking GR, in fact I don't think anyone can. If anything the logs clearly show I was reticent to take it any further than that conversation.

Also:

I may not know what I'm talking about, but plenty of people agree with me.

Is going in someone's signature, I guarantee it.

[the Imperial Crown]

The OFO started out as an exceedingly good thing for Osiris and the world community as a whole. However, I fear that it may risk losing its positive influence in the future.

The OFO was founded on noble and lofty ideals; an embracement of Raiderism and a wholesale condemnation of defending. However, it has since rejected those principles and, as it moves farther away from the beneficial ideals it was founded upon, risks becoming corrupt.

You have the dubious honour of a direct reply from me over this.

Of the candidates who were running for Pharaoh, I was the least pro-defender of them. Both of the others who were still running come election had at one point or were, part of the United Defenders League and were known defenders. I was not, nor have I ever been a defender, maybe by alignment as decided by the two alignment tests I took, one by Unibot, the other by Astarial and COE.

Whilst I may have been considered a defender, I have never undertaken membership of any defender organisations or paramilitaries. Nor have I ever adopted anything associated with said groups. At the same time, I have never undertaken membership of any raider organisations or paramilitaries. However, in contrast, I have been part of an Imperialist region; The Land of Kings and Emperors was the first region I joined in NationStates, around 2008/9 during the decline in Lucius' reign, I think. I remember my brief time there fondly, although I was not involved in the military.

People note that Osiris is unfriendly to defenders, well that is somewhat true. Yes. Osiris is more than the government, it is the sum of the citizens of the region. I do not tell people how to vote, how to act (no matter how much I'd like to), or what their policies are. If the Legislature of Osiris, comprised of citizens active in one aspect of executive governance disagreed with any policies then I would see it. At the same time, citizens of Osiris can always speak to myself or members of the cabinet to express views, or even post on the forums.

I do not believe that gameplay alignment is a suitable judge of someone's character. I do not, and have never judged someone because of their alignment, as it is simply impossible to adequately say that SoandSo is vwx because of y and/or z. I don't believe things work like that and to treat someone like that would be allow it to happen to myself or others.

My focus is not on alignments, but a cohesive social and cultural identity that should prevent the region being prone to future coups and periods of instability, but such a thing takes time to build.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Rose-tinted glasses! The Madjack era was the start of the fall. You can pinpoint the failure of the region to Madjack's refusal to ban Biyah, who so eloquently abused Osiris' poorly crafted constitution, for committing a coup d'etat supposedly to show the region how weak its security regime was.

How many freaking times do I have to tell you that wasn't just on him? Only two people could allow Biyah et al to stay. That was Georgie and I.

This has been explained before and at you in particular, do I need to get quotes? It was also a lot more complicated than that too. You can't condemn either of us for it.

Georgie was Delegate. You were not. He refused to exercise his game powers to ban Biyah and other participants from the region, citing "healing" or that it would cause more drama, it would be unhealthy, etc. Several people called for bans and criticized Georgie's indecisiveness, before he made the announcement there would be no bans and the "Hail Pharoah!" cultish nonsense rolled out.

Delegates ought to ban people who coup their regions. That's common sense. That the issue was "complicated" doesn't exonerate Georgie or yourself or anybody else who agreed to let Biyah and Co stay in the region. In fact, my entire point is that the complexity of the situation was a huge factor in future instability. It shouldn't be complicated to ban coup-ers. But Osiris had a bad constitution, an anemic legislature, and a weak willed Delegate that all converged to make it complicated.

I'm not the only one who believes it was a mistake to not ban Biyah and the other participants of that coup. I just happen to be one of the few who feels comfortable publicly criticizing people who others venerate.


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[the Imperial Crown]

At the time, the Pharaoh whilst powerful was beholden to the Council of Ma'at. The Ma'at was the overseer of the region and had the powers to be utterly unquestionable in various means - had Zaolat wanted rid of them, there would have been little that could be done, which is why Zaolat had to agree to George's plan to pardon them, as George could not do it without his consent.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I may not know what I'm talking about, but plenty of people agree with me.

I might have to sig this.

I really dislike being on the same banlist as nazi spammers!

Wow. It has been spoken. The lamest complaint in the universe. I never thought I'd live to see it...but here it is.

[Zaolat]

At the time, the Pharaoh whilst powerful was beholden to the Council of Ma'at. The Ma'at was the overseer of the region and had the powers to be utterly unquestionable in various means - had Zaolat wanted rid of them, there would have been little that could be done, which is why Zaolat had to agree to George's plan to pardon them, as George could not do it without his consent.

and given, our influence had I sided entirely with the Empire, we could have attempted to continue the coup, removing Georgie's in game power. I chalk it all up to a mistake we both made in giving another chance. GR was right in his feelings about the Empire, but needs to do more research.

[The Dourian Embassy]

and given, our influence had I sided entirely with the Empire, we could have attempted to continue the coup, removing Georgie's in game power. I chalk it all up to a mistake we both made in giving another chance. GR was right in his feelings about the Empire, but needs to do more research.

He might not need to do any more research. After all, he may not know what he's talking about, but plenty of people agree with him. Or so I'm told.

[Zaolat]

and given, our influence had I sided entirely with the Empire, we could have attempted to continue the coup, removing Georgie's in game power. I chalk it all up to a mistake we both made in giving another chance. GR was right in his feelings about the Empire, but needs to do more research.

He might not need to do any more research. After all, he may not know what he's talking about, but plenty of people agree with him. Or so I'm told.

More people agree now then they did then Treize.

[Cormacville]

I liked Earth Madjack pre drama era better, but this is alright.

Rose-tinted glasses! The Madjack era was the start of the fall. You can pinpoint the failure of the region to Madjack's refusal to ban Biyah, who so eloquently abused Osiris' poorly crafted constitution, for committing a coup d'etat supposedly to show the region how weak its security regime was.

You're both very wrong, actually. While CE is in fact looking at Mad Jack's term through rose-colored glasses, your identification of Mad Jack's term as the beginning of the problems is also very wrong. The beginning of Osiris' problems was the minute Empire entered the region, most likely, as they have publicly admitted that they influenced the region's legislative process to rig the KRO in favor of their manipulation. But I would add that Earth's term was also very problematic and that was the real start of a lot of the corruption that ended up being all-pervasive and more public in the KRO after she resigned from the Delegacy.

To some degree, those who argue that Empire gets too much of the blame are right. Earth deserves at least half of the blame if not more, it's just that she's overlooked because she's retired and because nobody wants to publicly criticize someone who is both retired and still immensely popular among her sycophants and those who don't know better.

This may be reflected as well in the Delegate's endo count, which has rebounded from a low of ~75 (with some foreign support), but hasn't reached the ~100 endorsements I believe the Pharaoh generally had at the end of the KRO and during Asta's Imperial period.

Every Delegate since The Dourian Embassy has struggled to get more than 100 endorsements, myself included even after Gatesville Inc left the region and certainly after the events that led to my resignation in August. I attribute this in part to the instability that occurred in the region throughout July, then again in August, then again after the KRO was dissolved. The WA nations in Osiris got sick of receiving messages telling them to unendorse this person, endorse this person, this regime was illegitimate, that regime was illegitimate, and a lot of them just stopped endorsing anyone. This is a problem that is going to take time to correct.

1) As stated previously, I believe there is an ongoing issue with defenders in the region...perhaps there isn't an official policy against defenders, but for whatever reason defender participation in the OFO is anemic. Former long-time defender residents of the region such as Campinia and Mahaj have found themselves banjected for no apparent reason, the most prominent defender in the region recently had trumped-up charges of treason leveled against him that couldn't even withstand public scrutiny, and it would appear that the makeup of the region from July 2013 to the present has dramatically shifted, with very few if any active defenders. I attempted to compare the KRO and OFO on this to determine the extent of whether this is true or a bias on my part, but unfortunately KRO Citizenship records were so poor that it wasn't possible to reliably do so.

There are multiple reasons that our defender population is lower. I will acknowledge that one of those reasons was the initial rhetoric involving "defender subversives" and the banjection of high profile defenders like Campinia and Mahaj, and that none of this led to a perception that we welcomed defenders. On the other hand, we do have defender citizens who we have encouraged to be active in the region. While I'm willing to acknowledge some blame for this, I would also point out that defenders probably aren't interested in the region because we've chosen a raider military direction. They're not going to be able to change that, they know it, and they're staying away. That's their choice. They're welcome to participate in other aspects of the region.

I will add that Campinia is free to apply for citizenship. His nations were banjected due to their influence and his refusal to get involved with the community while still maintaining that influence. (Campinia's puppets didn't have high influence, separately, but taken together they were nothing to sneeze at). He's free to move a new nation to the region and get involved in the OFO.

2) I'm somewhat concerned about the level with which The Empire group is still being scapegoated three months after the creation of the OFO, and even in this very topic. While it may be that the group was less than reputable (it's hard to say since there was never a trial), they have essentially been blamed in some way for everything that has ever gone wrong with Osiris. Even OFO member Treize Dreizehn's coup of Osiris was framed as The Empire's fault, because apparently Biyah somehow originally interested Gatesville in Osiris. Additionally, I've noticed that although there seems to be less contention and drama coming out of the region, whenever it does happen the parties of quick to accuse each other of being "Empire-like", or "acting like The Empire", or even of working for The Empire against Osiris. This would appear to be a symptom caused by this attitude.

Let's bear in mind that Empire manipulated Osiris, by their own public admission, since the moment it was created. It's natural that after more than two years of manipulation, the region is still going to be a bit caught up in it. They are to blame in some way for everything that has gone wrong with Osiris, including Treize Dreizehn's coup in July 2013. Yes, Biyah did bring Osiris to Gatesville's attention. He was the one who invited Nevadar to Osiris for the purpose of securing her support for Empire's coup d'etat in December 2012, which originally was supposed to be long-term and not the two day tag coup that it turned out to be. He was also the one who pushed for Gatesville's inclusion in Sovereign Confederation, which led to further disputes between Osiris and Gatesville, and his manipulation of Osiris was part of what led Treize to take the action he took.

Regarding your latter observation, I haven't noticed that to any significant degree, but again, it's not surprising that Osirans still have Empire on the brain. Two years of manipulation don't just disappear from your mind overnight.

3) Finally, I'm concerned about the power structure of the OFO...it should be noted that those behind the creation of the OFO now hold essentially the same levers of power that they accuse The Empire of abusing, such as a large portion of the high-influence nations in the region, root admin over the OFO forums, etc., and the structure of the government appears to create a moderately weak Executive, which could protect the region from rouge delegacies, but could also invite the sort of threats and abuses that The Empire were accused of, especially considering the Delegate's current relatively low endorsement rate. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the OFO starts to fundamentally drift from the course the founders set it on at the beginning, and what sort of pressure, if any, they utilize to fight off such changes. Perhaps this isn't even a concern at all, but in the absence of such an event so far and considering Osiris' history, it can't be ruled out of the question.

Uh, what?

We don't have the same power levers at all. None of the three of us are on the regional security council, by choice and despite invitations to be on the security council. Yes, the influence on Venico and Cormac A Stark remains moderately high, but we don't have WA status on those nations and are literally doing everything in our power, short of moving the nations out of the region and letting them CTE, to allow that influence to diminish. Venico has resigned citizenship and left the region completely. Koth is a Councilor of the Deshret and is in the Sekhmet Legion but certainly doesn't throw his weight around, and has been focused on RL and building The Brotherhood of Malice. I have declined invitations to be more involved in the government, and have only accepted a limited deputy position in the Sekhmet Legion as well as deputy to our equivalent of Speaker in the legislature.

I remain the root administrator, but I have not once used this as a position of power to obstruct the regional government. On the contrary, I have facilitated just about every initiative the government has wanted and tried to be as much help as I can be. Moreover, I have not tried to build a power bloc in the administrative team -- both the current Pharaoh and Vizier are administrators, the former root of the old forum (Todd McCloud) is an administrator, North East Somerset is an administrator for his security expertise, and r3nassainc3r is an administrator for his massive technical expertise. The administrative team consists of people valued for their administrative contributions. Contrast this with the KRO administrative team, consisting largely of inactive admins that Biyah selected to be yes men to his agenda on the admin team which he regularly used to obstruct the government after he lost control of the regional security council.

So, no, we don't have anything like the levers of power Empire had in the KRO. We have deliberately avoided having them. I challenge you to back up that statement or retract it.

[Ikania]

I don't know too much about the OFO, but I know they couped the region and regularly raid. So no. Bad.

[Zaolat]

the former root of the old forum is an administration

You mean the second former root, Cormac

[RiderSyl]

I may not know what I'm talking about, but plenty of people agree with me.

I don't know too much about the OFO, but I know they couped the region and regularly raid. So no. Bad.

Thanks guys. Due to your example, from now on, whenever I start a comment with "I lack the knowledge to comment on this, but...", I'm gonna stop and avoid looking foolish.

[Communist Eraser]

My observation for Earth and Madjack was purely expressed on who I got along and liked better. So to me, I had more fun in that period. I don't think there needs to be a logical explanation why I like certain people better.

I just don't have as much chemistry with OFOers..Raven and Cormac just aren't as 'fluffy' that suits matches my personality type. Does that make them "objectively" less welcoming? I don't know, maybe their personalities works for other people.

Then again my opinions might be irrelevant since the regions I choose participate are because I match with the people. Currently I have the most fun with the folks in Lazarus and TRR.

[RiderSyl]

Raven and Cormac just aren't as 'fluffy' that suits matches my personality type.

Suits or matches, man. Double-verbing isn't allowed in these parts.

[Ambroscus Koth]

I was actually kicked out of the Deshret for being completely inactive. So much for being a manipulative power-hungry dictator, eh Winter?

[Anumia]

I was actually kicked out of the Deshret for being completely inactive. So much for being a manipulative power-hungry dictator, eh Winter?

It's a very slow coup, I tell you!

[Venico]

I don't know too much about the OFO, but I know they couped the region and regularly raid. So no. Bad.

[RiderSyl]

Didn't you hear him, Venico? The OFO raids! That means they must be bad for their region!