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Personal Interest: Interviewing Lesser Knowns

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Scolopendra
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Scolopendra » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:08 pm

We do not consider third-party appeals.

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Silver Seas
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Postby Silver Seas » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:39 pm

What 'proof of bias towards CP' have the mods shown?

I know everyone loves a good persecution complex, but I've seen no evidence for it.

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Ambroscus Koth
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Postby Ambroscus Koth » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:33 pm

Personal Interest wrote:I cannot sit idly by as injustice is served to someone who has done little to no wrong and done much good to the NationStates community.


Unibot, is that you? :rofl:
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:46 pm

Personal Interest wrote:Several moderators have demonstrated extreme bias against the region of Capitalist Paradise, Afforess in particular.

... What?

Personal Interest wrote:It is Personal Interest's belief that the nation of Afforess is innocent of the charges brought against him, and his previous punishments harsher than if performed by a different nation.
That's demonstrably incorrect. Posting past ban results in the deletion of both the posting nation and the banned nation. It says as much in the rules.
Personal Interest wrote:Furthermore, it is Personal Interest's belief that the deletion Afforess was decided by moderators that should have recused themselves from the case.

Why?
Ideological Bulwark #253
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Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
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Mad Jack
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Postby Mad Jack » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:39 am

So Afforress claims to have given the nation away, despite every single post coming from his IP address?

Image
Last edited by Mad Jack on Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hobbesistan
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Postby Hobbesistan » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:42 am

Mad Jack wrote:So Afforress claims to have given the nation away, despite every single post coming from his IP address?




I had a smart remark for that, but the image is simply too awesome to attempt to counter.
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Mad Jack
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Postby Mad Jack » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:46 am

It a conspiracy, y'know.

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Andacantra
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Re: Personal Interest: Interviewing Lesser Knowns

Postby Andacantra » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:14 am

Riiiiight, okay. So the rules don't apply just because the person who broke them is someone you like and has "contributed" to the game. Anybody who's paid any attention to the mod line on puppet switching should know that it's done at own risk simply because it gets tricky telling if someone controls a nation or not...Afforess took a gamble with the long established and clear cut posting past ban rule and lost.

What gets me is that everyone else is getting outraged. If you're going to start throwing accusations around, prove it. If not, then just accept it, learn from it and just move on. If Afforess wanted to he's quite able to do that as soon as his ban is up, and there's nothing stopping everyone else doing it right now.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:13 am

Mad Jack wrote:So Afforress claims to have given the nation away, despite every single post coming from his IP address?

Every single post prior to his forum ban, from what I read. So you're point is not that relevant.

It seems to me the over-riding theme from all the past controversial moderation decisions I've seen is that the mods go out of their way to remove intent or any judgement calls from the process, to result in very specific if X then we delete you / ban you from the WA / etc. No ifs ands or buts, no room for reasoning or rational thought to enter into the equation, just pure mechanical application of rules. I can see the appeal to that system, since as we see in this thread itself as soon as one does not agree with moderation they claim bias. But it doesn't really leave me with a feeling that NS really cares about its users when this kind of thing happens, this feels like extreme indifference as opposed to any sort of bias.
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:28 am

"I wasn't in control of my nation when X happened" is probably the most common excuse we hear for rules violations. Nonetheless, we do look into it when people make that claim, as we did in this case. The claim that Afforess handed his nation over didn't match the evidence. When high-profile players have a nation deleted, it's often claimed that they were singled out for special treatment. That is not the case - we enforced the same rules that apply to every other player, and acted the same way we would have done with any other player who committed the offences.

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Southern Bellz
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Postby Southern Bellz » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:39 am

Damn, I've been saving the mods have singled me out excuse for years.

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Cerian Quilor
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Postby Cerian Quilor » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:45 am

Weed wrote:
Mad Jack wrote:So Afforress claims to have given the nation away, despite every single post coming from his IP address?

Every single post prior to his forum ban, from what I read. So you're point is not that relevant.

It seems to me the over-riding theme from all the past controversial moderation decisions I've seen is that the mods go out of their way to remove intent or any judgement calls from the process, to result in very specific if X then we delete you / ban you from the WA / etc. No ifs ands or buts, no room for reasoning or rational thought to enter into the equation, just pure mechanical application of rules. I can see the appeal to that system, since as we see in this thread itself as soon as one does not agree with moderation they claim bias. But it doesn't really leave me with a feeling that NS really cares about its users when this kind of thing happens, this feels like extreme indifference as opposed to any sort of bias.

And if they started trying to make judgement calls, actual bias would enter the system. That sounds like a great solution to the problem.
Never underestimate the power of cynicism, pessimism and negativity to prevent terrible things from happening. Only idealists try to build the future on a mountain of bodies.

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Southern Bellz
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Re: Personal Interest: Interviewing Lesser Knowns

Postby Southern Bellz » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:12 am

As much as I've given them a hard time, the mods have always communicated that I was approaching the line, warned me as I stepped on it, I have never crossed it, but they were clear he crossed the line. At some point, his behavior is his responsibility

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Iron News
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Postby Iron News » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:45 am

Damn, I was going to cover that case next.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:01 am

Southern Bellz wrote:As much as I've given them a hard time, the mods have always communicated that I was approaching the line, warned me as I stepped on it, I have never crossed it, but they were clear he crossed the line. At some point, his behavior is his responsibility

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When OC says the mods did the right thing you know that it must be true. Never seen this before.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: I only steal soaps and shampoos from the friend who lets me stay on their couch when I have to be in some other city.
GR quote of the month: Yes mall is right

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Southern Bellz
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Re: Personal Interest: Interviewing Lesser Knowns

Postby Southern Bellz » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:06 am

I've done it a few times. The people complaining about mod bias should have tried being a pre influence invader. Or couped by one :p

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Lun Noir
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Postby Lun Noir » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:38 am

Sedgistan wrote:"I wasn't in control of my nation when X happened" is probably the most common excuse we hear for rules violations. Nonetheless, we do look into it when people make that claim, as we did in this case. The claim that Afforess handed his nation over didn't match the evidence. When high-profile players have a nation deleted, it's often claimed that they were singled out for special treatment. That is not the case - we enforced the same rules that apply to every other player, and acted the same way we would have done with any other player who committed the offences.

A minor correction, your investigation may not have been wholy accurate, and I'd rather just get all the facts out so this speculation can stop flying around. Afforess is not lying when he said that he forfeited erudite_observer.

Afforess did give erudite_observer to me, and had me change the password without telling him what it was. It was intended to be a permanent transfer of the nation. To cement his decision to step out of Gameplay, he then requested that I leave a post about the closure of the newspaper, which I did. The final login to NS and the NS Forums originated from a computer in my control, not Afforess'.

When I saw the two nations get deleted, I felt terrible, and still do. I did not realize this would be the outcome.

I am not stating this in any attempt to sway the decision of the mods, just stating for the record what actually happened.

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Shadow Afforess
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Postby Shadow Afforess » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:42 am

Lun Noir wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:"I wasn't in control of my nation when X happened" is probably the most common excuse we hear for rules violations. Nonetheless, we do look into it when people make that claim, as we did in this case. The claim that Afforess handed his nation over didn't match the evidence. When high-profile players have a nation deleted, it's often claimed that they were singled out for special treatment. That is not the case - we enforced the same rules that apply to every other player, and acted the same way we would have done with any other player who committed the offences.

A minor correction, your investigation may not have been wholy accurate, and I'd rather just get all the facts out so this speculation can stop flying around. Afforess is not lying when he said that he forfeited erudite_observer.

Afforess did give erudite_observer to me, and had me change the password without telling him what it was. It was intended to be a permanent transfer of the nation. To cement his decision to step out of Gameplay, he then requested that I leave a post about the closure of the newspaper, which I did. The final login to NS and the NS Forums originated from a computer in my control, not Afforess'.

When I saw the two nations get deleted, I felt terrible, and still do. I did not realize this would be the outcome.

I am not stating this in any attempt to sway the decision of the mods, just stating for the record what actually happened.


This is exactly what happened. I saw no where in the rules where giving away nations & then having said nations post on the forums would be a violation. If I am to be made an example, please at least update the rules for this particular case.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:49 am

Shadow Afforess wrote:
Lun Noir wrote: ...he then requested that I leave a post about the closure of the newspaper, which I did.


This is exactly what happened...

That's posting past ban.
Last edited by Mallorea and Riva on Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: I only steal soaps and shampoos from the friend who lets me stay on their couch when I have to be in some other city.
GR quote of the month: Yes mall is right

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Shadow Afforess
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Postby Shadow Afforess » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:52 am

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Shadow Afforess wrote:
This is exactly what happened...

That's posting past ban.

As I said, the rules nowhere mentioned that, so they should be clarified.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:58 am

Shadow Afforess wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:That's posting past ban.

As I said, the rules nowhere mentioned that, so they should be clarified.

You didn't think it seemed even slightly sketchy to give your nation to another player to make a post on your behalf?
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: I only steal soaps and shampoos from the friend who lets me stay on their couch when I have to be in some other city.
GR quote of the month: Yes mall is right

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Shadow Afforess
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Postby Shadow Afforess » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Shadow Afforess wrote:As I said, the rules nowhere mentioned that, so they should be clarified.

You didn't think it seemed even slightly sketchy to give your nation to another player to make a post on your behalf?

I have interpreted the rules literally many times in the past without undue concern.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

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Mad Jack
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Postby Mad Jack » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:05 pm

You swap and share nations at your own risk. Complaining that you didn't know that isn't an excuse for your actions.
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Shadow Afforess
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Postby Shadow Afforess » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:06 pm

Mad Jack wrote:You swap and share nations at your own risk. Complaining that you didn't know that isn't an excuse for your actions.

I have nowhere complained. I have asked for clarification & a rule update so future nations do not fall into the same trap.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:07 pm

Shadow Afforess wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:You didn't think it seemed even slightly sketchy to give your nation to another player to make a post on your behalf?

I have interpreted the rules literally many times in the past without undue concern.

I'll take that as a no then and conclude that your judgment was very faulty, which is unfortunate. I thought the rules regarding the matter implicated that such actions should not be done. The rules cannot possibly seek to outline everything that will get you into trouble after all.

Will the writer of the above piece be coming around to explain their views or was this just hit and run?
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Tal and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: I only steal soaps and shampoos from the friend who lets me stay on their couch when I have to be in some other city.
GR quote of the month: Yes mall is right

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