The Rejected Times

[Kringalia]

Neither Glen nor Unibot manipulated the elections. While I can see why people make that claim, they won their elections because the people trusted them, simple as that.

[The Dourian Embassy]

Neither Glen nor Unibot manipulated the elections. While I can see why people make that claim, they won their elections because the people trusted them, simple as that.

I don't know why you keep making that claim as though you know it for certain.

[RiderSyl]

Neither Glen nor Unibot manipulated the elections. While I can see why people make that claim, they won their elections because the people trusted them, simple as that.

So is that certainty of the legitimacy of their elections backed up by an investigation into the matter, or are you expressing your opinion on the matter?

Serious question.

[Kringalia]

Neither Glen nor Unibot manipulated the elections. While I can see why people make that claim, they won their elections because the people trusted them, simple as that.

I don't know why you keep making that claim as though you know it for certain.

If you have evidence of any wrongdoing, present it to our High Court. Unless what you really want to do is keep on making outlandish claims without any evidence whatsoever, which is what you have been doing anyways.

Neither Glen nor Unibot manipulated the elections. While I can see why people make that claim, they won their elections because the people trusted them, simple as that.

So is that certainty of the legitimacy of their elections backed up by an investigation into the matter, or are you expressing your opinion on the matter?

Serious question.

There is no actual reason to doubt the legitimacy of the election. No one has produced any evidence to the contrary, and there won't be any investigation simple because someone who isn't even a citizen makes silly claims.

[The Dourian Embassy]

If you have evidence of any wrongdoing, present it to our High Court. Unless what you really want to do is keep on making outlandish claims without any evidence whatsoever, which is what you have been doing anyways.

We've gone over your rose colored glasses in this very thread enough times to know that there's no point in my continuing to try to convince you of the stuff going on in your own backyard. But, you're a smart fellow, and you have to know that there is a possibility of wrongdoing(even if you, against all reason, reject it as probable) on the parts of GR and Unibot, so stating that there is no possibility... puzzles me.

To boil it down for you: You've missed my point entirely. You do not know that the statement you made(that no wrongdoing occurred) is true. Yet you state it like you do. That is the only thing that puzzles me.

[Kringalia]

Let's make something clear. You are the one making allegations of wrongdoing in one of our elections, therefore you have a resonsibility to provide evidence of those claims. I have nothing to prove to you, nor do I have any reason to suspect that Glen or Unibot manipulated the elections. Unless you provide me with a compelling reason and evidence as to why I should take your claims seriously, you'll forgive me if I simply ignore them.

[Funkadelia]

The only weapon that the imperialists have is to try to force people to prove a negative. The fact that it's still taken seriously is beyond me.

[Glen-Rhodes]

To boil it down for you: You've missed my point entirely. You do not know that the statement you made(that no wrongdoing occurred) is true. Yet you state it like you do. That is the only thing that puzzles me.

Yet again, to address your baseless and embarrassing BS, yes, Kris does know. He can view IP addresses. He can check the special voting account. He can see which users voted in the polls. He can see who registered, when, on what IP, with what email addresses, and can see how active they've been since they've registered.

Meanwhile, you have your own lies, some whispers of conspiracy, and a huge bias that you're not ashamed to show to everybody. Stop being such a hack, Douria. If you have proof that I rigged the elections, show it. Hell, you'd be embarrassing yourself much less if you even had vaguely incriminating IRC logs.

[RiderSyl]

There is no actual reason to doubt the legitimacy of the election. No one has produced any evidence to the contrary, and there won't be any investigation simple because someone who isn't even a citizen makes silly claims.

There was an entire conspiracy planned, one of the members including Todd McCloud, based on the election. I say that's reason enough to investigate it. If you're not going to investigate something that caused a TSP conspiracy based on a lack of evidence, then you may be letting an even bigger infringement on the democratic process of your region go completely unattended to.

I'm not an imperialist, nor whatever an "independist" is. I barely know Glen, or Unibot. I have no horse in this political back-and-forth between TSP and others, and no bias towards anyone involved. So when I say, Kris, I wish you would investigate it so we can clear the air and stop with this unnecessary drama, I'm saying that as an objective third party. With the abilities that Glen mentioned you have, in relation to elections, it shouldn't be that hard to do.

[Rhina]

There is no actual reason to doubt the legitimacy of the election. No one has produced any evidence to the contrary, and there won't be any investigation simple because someone who isn't even a citizen makes silly claims.

There was an entire conspiracy planned, one of the members including Todd McCloud, based on the election. I say that's reason enough to investigate it. If you're not going to investigate something that caused a TSP conspiracy based on a lack of evidence, then you may be letting an even bigger infringement on the democratic process of your region go completely unattended to.

I'm not an imperialist, nor whatever an "independist" is. I barely know Glen, or Unibot. I have no horse in this political back-and-forth between TSP and others, and no bias towards anyone involved. So when I say, Kris, I wish you would investigate it so we can clear the air and stop with this unnecessary drama, I'm saying that as an objective third party. With the abilities that Glen mentioned you have, in relation to elections, it shouldn't be that hard to do.

Not to be a dissenter, Syl, but the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the accused. Kris, Glen, Unibot, et al have nothing to prove here.

[Solorni]

It's fascinating how there seems to always be this level of drama in TSP lately. I miss the days of Escade which were marked by drama too ofc

[Kringalia]

There was an entire conspiracy planned, one of the members including Todd McCloud, based on the election. I say that's reason enough to investigate it. If you're not going to investigate something that caused a TSP conspiracy based on a lack of evidence, then you may be letting an even bigger infringement on the democratic process of your region go completely unattended to.

But that is the whole point: it's not that these people had proof that Glen and Unibot were manipulating elections and took it to the proper authorities in TSP. They simpley refused to believe Glen and Unibot could be elected in a fair election, and concluded there had to be manipulation. Belschaft said as much in the leaked logs:

[15:42] <Bel> Proving stacking is dificult, but I'm fairly sure it's going on
[15:42] <Bel> Unless you think that Unibot could get elected to Cabinet in TSP without it?
[15:42] <Bel> This is fucking Unibot we're talking about

If someone has proof of wrongdoing, then by all means let's see it, and have an investigation as appropriate. I'll be the first person to agree that such a course of action is necessary. But we can't have a full investigation if the only proof is someone's belief that Unibot can't win a fair election. Proof is, like Rhina said, a responsibility of those claiming that wrongdoing has happened.

It's fascinating how there seems to always be this level of drama in TSP lately. I miss the days of Escade which were marked by drama too ofc

Interestingly enough, there was never drama in TSP over this topic. We all agreed that what happened was wrong, and that steps had to be taken regarding those responsible. The only drama I've seen over this has happened in the Gameplay forum.

You should pay a bit more attention to TSP, Rach. We don't really have much drama nowadays.

----

Let me ask you a question, Treize. Do you have any proof that Glen and Unibot manipulated elections? Yes or no. Either you have it, and therefore should present it to the proper authorities in TSP, or you don't, in which case you have no business accusing citizens of manipulating elections.

[Solorni]

I would consider the events of people being moved to try to remove elected officials by bringing people in rather dramatic personally.

[Kringalia]

I guess I was thinking more of the infighting levels that we have in late 2013 and early 2014, particularly just before the forum move. If we compare TSP then against TSP now, we are much better as a region, in terms of civility in the Assembly.

[Glen-Rhodes]

There was an entire conspiracy planned, one of the members including Todd McCloud, based on the election. I say that's reason enough to investigate it. If you're not going to investigate something that caused a TSP conspiracy based on a lack of evidence, then you may be letting an even bigger infringement on the democratic process of your region go completely unattended to.

We're not going to lend any credibility to Belschaft's paranoid ramblings, which were purely a product of his total disbelief that anybody with my views or Unibot's views could successfully win competitive elections in TSP. The conspiracy concocted by Belschaft, Todd McCloud, et al. was not to address allegations of fraud -- we have courts that handle those allegations -- but to reverse what they saw (and likely continue to see) as an irreversible trend away from political positions they believe are the right ones for TSP.

As somebody who does not know TSP, or apparently the people involved, very well, you would not really be clued in to the background politics of the region. Those of us who are involved in TSP and are keenly aware of our political environment know exactly what the conspiracy is about, and why the conspirators created it. It has nothing to do with a sincere belief that anybody committed electoral fraud.

[Solorni]

What views are those?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Your feigned naivety is so cute, Rachel (✿◠‿◠)

[RiderSyl]

Since I'm not Rachel, I'll ask then.

What views are you talking about, GR?

[Solorni]

It's not feigned Glen. While I do know some of your beliefs and many of Unibots, my question is what in your own words, what are your beliefs and why would someone find them so dangerous or detestable that they would seek foreign help to prevent such threats. Thus my question is what exactly are these beliefs.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's not feigned Glen. While I do know some of your beliefs and many of Unibots, my question is what in your own words, what are your beliefs and why would someone find them so dangerous or detestable that they would seek foreign help to prevent such threats. Thus my question is what exactly are these beliefs.

It is feigned ignorance, Rachel, because you know exactly what's been happening among the Independent and imperialist sphere for the past few months. You fret to me over IRC about how it's such a travesty that all your hard work is being destroyed. We spoke about this very issue just a few nights ago.

What views are you talking about, GR?

Conspirators believe that there is a secret defender agenda to push out all Independent and imperialist influence in TSP. Have you bothered to read the pages and pages of posts about it when it was actually reported? You should, if you really care to know about what happened.

[Solorni]

Do you feel foreign defender influence is better than other kinds of influence in TSP or internal values?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Do you feel foreign defender influence is better than other kinds of influence in TSP or internal values?

Why? Do you?

[Solorni]

Do you feel foreign defender influence is better than other kinds of influence in TSP or internal values?

Why? Do you?

I think the results of any regions foreign affairs speak for themselves, TSP or not.

[NoblePhnx]

I think things are deliberately murky right about now, but of course no way to tell due to the aforementioned murkiness.

[RiderSyl]

Conspirators believe that there is a secret defender agenda to push out all Independent and imperialist influence in TSP. Have you bothered to read the pages and pages of posts about it when it was actually reported? You should, if you really care to know about what happened.

I want to know about what happened, but I don't care about it enough to subject myself to pages and pages of political pissing contests.. Pursuit of knowledge be damned, that just wouldn't be healthy reading.

Also:

Do you feel foreign defender influence is better than other kinds of influence in TSP or internal values?

Why? Do you?

Holy question dodge!