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The Rejected Times: Issue LIII

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Glacikaldr
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:16 pm

Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent? Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy. Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation? All that was done was call the NPO 'not democratic'. Not sure why that makes us your enemy but if you think it does then maybe TRR should have a few contentious votes coming up on the matter.
Last edited by Glacikaldr on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zaolat
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Postby Zaolat » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:41 pm

The Aligned People wrote:In the announcement message of Vox Populi put out by East Durthang, he said this:
East Durthang wrote:We look forward to further establishing the role of Vox Populi as a new norm within our society.

To me, that says that East is wanting to gain favor with others by saying that the Senator of the People is here, and it's here to stay. Also meaning that the "democratic process" (if you can call it that) used to select the Vox Populi is also here to stay. And as has been stated by Pierconium, the NPO has no intention to establish democracy within its borders. So since the NPO has no intention to establish democracy (a well-known fact), why would East make it seem as if he is all gung ho about reform? He said it himself, he wants it to be the new norm within the NPO even though he couldn't want democracy further away from them. So I very much so stand by the fact that the office of the Senator of the People is intended to give the perception of democracy.

You would think that my argument is factual if the Consul of the NPO is persistently debating with others in the thread about how I have a "fundamental lack of understanding."

Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:In fact, I'd be interested in and love to see you write a response to The Aligned One's article on the position of Vox Populi.

Couldn't agree more Manson! I'll be waiting for it... :)


Because East Durthang doesn't want the NPO to go back to the way it has been before. That doesn't mean turning the whole entire Order into a Democracy. Having some democratic elements does not make one a Democracy. Without reading into his intentions, I do believe rather than wanting to make everything Democratic (a voice, a vote), that he does at least want to give people more ability to discuss things and influence. That doesn't necessarily mean we vote on everything, but pushing for more people to speak up that aren't in higher power. Power still lies top down, not down up or some mixture like in Democratic Republics.

Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:16 pm

Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)

Opposition leaning, is what Ivan said. Amaros made the logical leap and assumed that leaning somehow means totally opposing. TRT has posted a lot of articles geared against the NPO, and comparatively few pro-NPO articles, but that's due to who is writing in it. Not TRT's fault.
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Postby Severisen » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:45 pm

Harenhime's piece is being overlooked here and I think that's a shame. I'll admit that I'm guilty of the "gameplay is dead and sucks don't go there" mentality lately. But in the words of the great philosopher MJ, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror."

Thanks for the reminder, kid.
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Glacikaldr
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:18 pm

I like to think TRR FA-wise stays neutral in the whole NPO v APC thing... meanwhile TRT has been critical of both parties as of late. Not to say that TRT is only a platform where people can yell about things they're passionate about, but it also serves that role for the citizenry and invited guests. Haven't been following GP that closely lately myself so I'm steering clear of those more generalising articles. Probably shouldn't have made that reply without checking everyone's actual stances. Apologies Jar Wattinree.
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Marilyn Manson Freaks
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:31 pm

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Special Release | March 31, 2019


Media Officer: Marilyn Manson Freaks
Editor-in-Chief: Marilyn Manson Freaks


21st Century Ghost(fox): An Interview with Lynxi, Soon-to-be Pharaoh of Osiris
INTERVIEW | WRITTEN BY Senior Reporter Marilyn Manson Freaks | EDITED BY TRT STAFF

Hello, Lynxi. :)

Thank you for agreeing to do this interview.


No problem.

It's a pleasure to speak to you. Let's just jump right in! For those who aren't aware, when did you join NS?

Same, definitely. I started in December of 2016. So basically I'm an NS baby. Though that's not when I founded my first nation. I just really didn't get into more than issues til 2016.

So, when did you found your first nation?

2011, I think. It's a guesstimate that Satya was able to help with. I think I was founded in TWP.

Jeez! You're far from being a NationStates baby. :P

Well sure, but I had the nation for like a few weeks and then forgot about it. I consider myself to have started in 2016, since that's when I actually did stuff.

Understandable. How did you find your way to Osiris?

Well at first I didn't. I was a Warden when my interest in Osi started to grow and that was before the proscription was lifted. So I kind've stuck around as a visitor in the discord and just watched from the outside. I'd say that particular experience gave me a bigger drive to do stuff I'd never done in Osiris and was the cornerstone for my pursuit of the delegacy.

Were you surprised when Altino appointed you as her heir?

No. We had been talking about it for a while. The response we got from the rest of everyone was that they weren't surprised either. So I guess that shows how big of a "secret" it was, lol.

And, if you could change one thing about Osiris, what would you change?

I'm not sure, that's actually a tough question. I think if I had to change something it'd be the citizen role color in the discord. I'm pretty sure I'd be a regional legend for doing that at this point.

Heh. Yeah, it's a pretty odd color. When Altino made the announcement that she was going to abdicate as Pharaoh soon, how did you react?

Well, I knew that she was going to so it wasn't too big of a surprise. We've planned all of this out for a while now. But as with any leap in responsibility, I grew a bit more nervous and excited when she made the post.

Okay, huge question here. When you are officially coronated as Pharaoh, what will your first action be?

THAT is a big surprise, so stay tuned. But uh, my second action(s) is probably going to be meeting with my Viziers one by one and laying out a sort of timeline for each department. I plan to spend a lot of time on the interior during my time as Pharaoh, and that's the first step: making goals.

That's great. You definitely have to focus on internal affairs before you deal with external affairs. :P
Do you have any goals? Anything planned for your reign?


I have one overarching goal that's going to be the drive for everything I do, and it's born on the back of Altino's vision for a meritocratic Osiris. That goal is to promote dedicated people to the place they want to be in Osiris. As a regional leader you can't just think about the tings that happen in your term, but you have to set a solid foundation for the person after you. If not, you might be handing them a grenade that'll blow up in their hands. And because of that, I'm going to be following an old management cliche: My job is to promote the people under me. Hopefully in pursuing that we get to build a solid level of community on top of Altino's foundation.

Yeah, I do think that sometimes GCR Delegates can unknowingly and knowingly ignore or overlook the contributions of others. Fortunately, I haven't seen that in a while. Now onto our next question. What's your favorite moment/memory from your time in Osiris?

Hm, probably the #BullyCulture Anti Valentine's Day we did. I think that was one of the best tings CA has pulled off as a team. It went real well, got the entire community behind the idea of Bully Culture and was really funny. Though mine and Dali's St Patrick's Day Drunk VC was pretty great too. Ultimately my favorite memories from Osi are all based on a big show of camaraderie and community.

What did those events involve?

Well the first one was getting everyone to submit anonymous and lighthearted insults to each other via a google form. Me and a few CA helpers released them throughout the day on discord, tagging the recipients and laughing at the carnage. I have to emphasize that they were entirely lighthearted. The idea of #BullyCulture is less about the bullying and more about giving friends a hard time to mask the affection. Affection spreads cooties, after all. The drunk VC with Dali was about as literal as that can sound. Me and Dali piled into VC for somewhere close to 7 hours and drank while celebrating St. Patrick's day with the rest of the community.

Sounds fun! Are you still a defender, or did your perspective change as you played a bit longer?

I haven't thought about my place in R/D for a minute, and part of that is because Osiris has taken my full focus. So this last year or so is really captured by the phrase "Lynxi is an Osiran" more than "Lynxi is a defender." When my WA frees up, whenever that is, I'll start thinking about it.

That's great. Some people let alignment go to their heads, personally I couldn't care less about my gameplay alignment.

I actually think that it's important to find your niche and try to focus on it. Early on I was all over the place, these days I'm drawn away from unaligned/independent alignments and I'm more curious about the people and mindsets that stick to one side of the line. I think that makes for a more interesting r/d meta and I'm kinda done with being unaligned as I was in the past. It just remains to be seen which side I'll choose. :P

Do you regret anything you've done in Osiris?

Nope. I don't regret anything I've done in NS really. Not that I haven't made mistakes, but I try to be as candid and sincere in the tings I believe in. I don't really find the IC morally grey stuff fun anyways, so there's nothing that I really have to regret in the first place. Sometimes I feel like I can do better, but there's no point in dwelling on that.

And, lastly, would you say that you've evolved as a player over the years? If so, how?

I have undoubtedly evolved over the years. When I started I was a roleplayer, and very unsure of the difference between IC and OOC shouting matches. I stayed in the shadows of the larger GP community, a bit unsure of if I really wanted to pursue stuff like a GCR delegacy, and more trying to figure out how community building worked. Unfortunately I learned the hard way as I watched several of my earlier regions implode due to clique based mentalities and people trying to control others. So when I helped cofound Caer Sidi with Aynia, I got a good glimpse into why these tings happen when regions are growing or building. And that process helped me see, really, what nationstates was at its core and how to have an IC mask over my OOC personality. I suggest to anyone, if you're looking to grow you should try to build a UCR. It does wonders for gaining NS experience.

Well, this concludes our interview. Thanks again, Lynxi! I hope the transition goes smoothly. :)

No problem! And me too, haha. So far so good.

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King HEM
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby King HEM » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:44 pm

I understand that the Rejected Times has an opinion element, and I'm glad to see any media in the game up and running. That being said, it was a little bit...jarring to have an article praising the success of Osiris' meritocratic project right up against a condemnation of the New Pacific Order for not being a "real" democracy.

There are valid and reasonable criticisms of the New Pacific Order, before and after their recent reforms. But I don't think lack of democracy can be one of them if you like the meritocracy system in general.
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Glacikaldr
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:49 pm

King HEM wrote:I understand that the Rejected Times has an opinion element, and I'm glad to see any media in the game up and running. That being said, it was a little bit...jarring to have an article praising the success of Osiris' meritocratic project right up against a condemnation of the New Pacific Order for not being a "real" democracy.

There are valid and reasonable criticisms of the New Pacific Order, before and after their recent reforms. But I don't think lack of democracy can be one of them if you like the meritocracy system in general.

Just because Osiris' meritocratic system is working well for them as of late, does not mean NPO's supposedly abruptly formed democratic Senate position (research into that isn't my own but that's what the article suggests) isn't up for criticism.

So, I don't think including the two articles in the same release is jarring beyond a surface level.
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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:04 pm

Glacikaldr wrote:I like to think TRR FA-wise stays neutral in the whole NPO v APC thing... meanwhile TRT has been critical of both parties as of late. Not to say that TRT is only a platform where people can yell about things they're passionate about, but it also serves that role for the citizenry and invited guests. Haven't been following GP that closely lately myself so I'm steering clear of those more generalising articles. Probably shouldn't have made that reply without checking everyone's actual stances. Apologies Jar Wattinree.

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Harenhime
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Postby Harenhime » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:16 pm

Severisen wrote:Harenhime's piece is being overlooked here and I think that's a shame. I'll admit that I'm guilty of the "gameplay is dead and sucks don't go there" mentality lately. But in the words of the great philosopher MJ, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror."

Thanks for the reminder, kid.


Thanks, Sev. Hope there's more silent readers around here, between the folks focusing more on other articles :P
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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:55 pm

King HEM wrote:I understand that the Rejected Times has an opinion element, and I'm glad to see any media in the game up and running. That being said, it was a little bit...jarring to have an article praising the success of Osiris' meritocratic project right up against a condemnation of the New Pacific Order for not being a "real" democracy.

There are valid and reasonable criticisms of the New Pacific Order, before and after their recent reforms. But I don't think lack of democracy can be one of them if you like the meritocracy system in general.


With respect, that article on the NPO is criticizing its use of populist language, it doesn't criticize NPO for being a dictatorship or a meritocracy per se, it criticizes the NPO for obfuscating its fundamental nature and claiming a direct, popular sovereignty. The NPO wants the trappings and legitimacy of a democracy without ... you know, the democracy part.

At least under a former, washed-up, ruggedly unshaven editorialship, the Rejected Times was also quite critical of meritocracy. I see a lot of contradictions in Lynxi's perspective. For instance, to decry cosmopolitanism and promote merit and contribution in the same breath is to fail to appreciate that it is liberal, cosmopolitian arrangements which put emphasis on the contributions of players rather than their "purity," "loyalty," or fidelity to the community. It's like denouncing high prices and advocating higher tariffs in the same sentence - if you want lower prices, you want lower tariffs not higher.

Meritocracy is a governing philosophy, but the conventional vehicle of its implementation is autocracy - and the central tension at play is autocrats have good reason to implement negative selection in practice.

Lynxi is paying lip service to this in saying they will promote talent but reason dictates that while Osiris remains an autocracy, the leader will view promotions through a political lens that weighs the risks against the benefits to their own hold on the region. Democracy is a better vehicle, although notably flawed, for implementing meritocratic values because the leadership of the region is decided by the people it affects. While people may not vote wholly rationally, they will support the leadership they believe in - which is the best we can ask for.
Last edited by Unibot III on Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:38 pm

Unibot III wrote:<snip>

Osiris was a train wreck as a democracy, and it tried democracy twice, in several different forms. It's doing quite well as a meritocracy. It's almost like different regions have different communities, different needs, and different emphases on what matters to their communities.
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Pierconium
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Postby Pierconium » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:39 pm

Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent? Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy. Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation? All that was done was call the NPO 'not democratic'. Not sure why that makes us your enemy but if you think it does then maybe TRR should have a few contentious votes coming up on the matter.

While it has been addressed somewhat, to be very clear, each issue of TRT states that it does not represent TRR. So if I note that TRT leans towards the opposition, which it seems to do, that is not the same as stating TRR is opposed to the NPO. It seems odd that members of TRR would not make this distinction when it originates on their end.

As to the rest of the comments, the Vox Populi position does give a real and direct voice to the citizenry of the NPO. Nations that are part of our community can advance over time to the Senate through hard work and dedication. Both through direct appointment by the Emperor, and now through a vote within the Body Republic. The issue being discussed in the article and some of the comments is that this vote is meant to symbolise democracy. That is wrong. We maintain our meritocratic system, just with an internal mechanism to be recognised by their peers after they have demonstrated commitment, activity, and merit.
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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:14 am

Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent? Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy. Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation? All that was done was call the NPO 'not democratic'. Not sure why that makes us your enemy but if you think it does then maybe TRR should have a few contentious votes coming up on the matter.

Pierconium wrote:While it has been addressed somewhat, to be very clear, each issue of TRT states that it does not represent TRR. So if I note that TRT leans towards the opposition, which it seems to do, that is not the same as stating TRR is opposed to the NPO. It seems odd that members of TRR would not make this distinction when it originates on their end.

I'd just like to clarify (to both Pierconium and Glacikaldr) that TRT doesn't follow any sort of agenda, political or otherwise. Neq, perhaps you're taking the criticism a bit personally. Pierconium, TRT is very much an individualist newspaper. If any given author is critical of the NPO that is their own view rather than that of TRT itself. After all TRT encourages it's authors to write in their own way as opposed to falling in line for a company-wide plan.
Last edited by The Church of Satan on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Armaros » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:35 am

Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)

...I what?
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Postby RiderSyl » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:42 am

Armaros wrote:
Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)

...I what?

It's an alternate fact, Armaros. The NPO specialize in them. :p
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Postby Harenhime » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:14 am

Armaros wrote:
Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)

...I what?


Just to further this, I've searched the mentions of TRR/TRT as an opposition anything in this thread, from least to most recent:

Pierconium wrote:
RiderSyl wrote:Oh yeah, all these comments definitely aren't outrage at the article. Don't believe your lying eyes!

I am not outraged by an opposition leaning news outlet claiming that the NPO is attempting to fool the world about democracy. I simply pointed out that it is incorrect. We aren’t claiming a move towards democracy. No outrage. Some here do seem upset though. Odd.


Armaros wrote:As a result, here you are screaming about how an "opposition leaning news outlet" (lmfao) how you never attenpted democracy. All good and well, but what do you think electing officials is called?


Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:And Ivan, I just thought I'd bring this up, calling the region's newspaper an opposition paper is frankly absurd considering that literally anyone can write about anything except for OOC drama and (serious) random conspiracies theories.


Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless.


Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)


Jar Wattinree wrote:
Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros. ;)

Opposition leaning, is what Ivan said.


Pierconium wrote:So if I note that TRT leans towards the opposition, which it seems to do, that is not the same as stating TRR is opposed to the NPO. It seems odd that members of TRR would not make this distinction when it originates on their end.


There, now you can follow it all in one place.

Ivan says something. Amaros *literally* quotes it. Manson and Neq comment on it. Zao says Ivan never said it. Jar tried to act like Amaros mischaracterized Ivan when he literally quoted him word for wor. Ivan clarifies something that's not this nonsense.

This is hardly even what you can call discussion as much as pedantic quibbling, btw.
Last edited by Harenhime on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unibot III
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:51 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Unibot III wrote:<snip>

Osiris was a train wreck as a democracy, and it tried democracy twice, in several different forms. It's doing quite well as a meritocracy. It's almost like different regions have different communities, different needs, and different emphases on what matters to their communities.


With every iteration of Osiris' existence, you've defended Osiris publicly to me as "doing quite well" until you inevitably pull the plug out of the wall and reboot its systems, citing fundamental political issues. You said in the KRO days that Osiris was different, that illiberalism and kleptocracy was something inherent about its culture that met Osiris' needs - that democracy was an import from outside critics like me and Glen-Rhodes. This has always been your line, that Osiris is doing just fine and that apparent gaps in its liberalism serve Osiris' distinct needs and character.

You were the champion of the KRO until you sought to create the OFO. You were the champion of the OFO until you sought to reboot it with a monarchist bent. You're now a champion of OFO 2.0, right up until the point you might decide to change things up internally.

You've done a poor job articulating why individual political, social, and cultural rights may not "matter" as much for Osirans as much as they do with Rejects. Nor have you appreciated the connection between the issues Osiris is facing and its political structure - democracy offers a path for substantive local engagement that autocracy does not.

On a final note because I was too tired to spell it out last night...

As a rehash of Albert Breton's Economics of Nationalism, let's consider the Economics of Regionalism for a second. If we were to conceptualize political work and contribution in regions as skilled labour and NationStates as a global labour market, the "cost" of poaching a gameplayer from a wide pool of gameplayers outside of the region, without citizenship limitations, would be minuscule to a region - say $0.1 (an arbitrary number) - which reflects the effort to brand the region as an attractive, interesting place worth the time of gameplayers. I would also imagine that as the population of NationStates goes up or down, so does the cost.

If you place limitations on how many citizenships they can maintain, the cost of poaching will increase because skilled labour will resist attempts to limit their freedom of movement and opportunity - let's say an increase to $0.2. If you place limitations on what kind of political philosophy and values you want the labour to hold (e.g., a raider region will want to poach raiders), the pool of relevant labour shrinks and the cost to poach increases with the limited supply from $0.1 to $0.2. So if you're following, a cosmopolitian region poaching defenders specifically and putting restrictions on the number of citizenships they can maintain and where their WA must reside and under what conditions, will face a higher cost for poaching as a result, $0.3 versus $0.1. Meanwhile, a regionalist game-created region that wants to recruit and train new skilled labour "in-house" faces a punitive cost to finding similar labour from (overall) a much smaller, less skilled, less interested pool. And after you factor in (as a cost) the effort of training them and retaining these players from being poached, I might suggest the comparative cost of an "in house" native recruit might be as high as $0.6, double the $0.3 (again, just arbitrary numbers). A regionalist user-created region that wanted to do the same would face an even higher cost, say $0.7+ per head, reflecting the cost and effort of telegram recruitment campaigns.

An extreme cosmopolitian region, like say, the Meritocracy, pushes this rational argument to its extremes by focusing its efforts to grow as a region/organization by poaching skilled gameplayers from a very general, open pool, and incorporating them into its region with overriding, univeralistic values and the promotion of talent and merit. An extreme regionalist region has to overcome far higher costs and challenges to regional growth which are justified under nativism (i.e., training and promoting your own) - 10000 Islands, five years ago now, was the classic success story. The New Pacific Order is regionalist, but more moderate - it's rationalized and scaled up its labour recruitment like a cosmopolitian region would by intensely poaching skilled gameplayers and relocating NPOers from a metaverse, but has compensated for this practical approach by doubling down on its regionalist rhetoric and the traditional tribal psychology of inward-looking, regionalist societies.

This is why I would say meritocracy and cosmopolitianism go hand in hand - and it's foolhardy for Osiris to pursue one without the other. Conventional regionalist limitations on the free movement of labour and citizenship act like a tariff on global talent which regionalizes recruitment for an idealistic rather than practical end.
Last edited by Unibot III on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Posts: 2255
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:11 pm

Unibot III wrote:With every iteration of Osiris' existence, you've defended Osiris publicly to me as "doing quite well" until you inevitably pull the plug out of the wall and reboot its systems, citing fundamental political issues. You said in the KRO days that Osiris was different, that illiberalism and kleptocracy was something inherent about its culture that met Osiris' needs - that democracy was an import from outside critics like me and Glen-Rhodes. This has always been your line, that Osiris is doing just fine and that apparent gaps in its liberalism serve Osiris' distinct needs and character.

You were the champion of the KRO until you sought to create the OFO. You were the champion of the OFO until you sought to reboot it with a monarchist bent. You're now a champion of OFO 2.0, right up until the point you might decide to change things up internally.

You've done a poor job articulating why individual political, social, and cultural rights may not "matter" as much for Osirans as much as they do with Rejects. Nor have you appreciated the connection between the issues Osiris is facing and its political structure - democracy offers a path for substantive local engagement that autocracy does not.

Implementing your style of "liberalism" in Osiris would just serve the interests of people like Roavin and Glen-Rhodes and rip Osiris apart again. That's why they want it, and that's why you want it. Let's not make any mistake about that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the well-being of Osiris' community.

To address your argument, that I've defended every iteration of Osiris' government by saying that government suited Osiris' needs, you're not wrong. I was newer to the game and simply wrong about the KRO, and I've admitted that for years. I maintain that OFO 1.0 did in fact serve Osiris' needs for a while and worked rather well at first, but unfortunately that didn't last. I couldn't have reasonably anticipated that. I'll note that OFO 1.0 was the most democratic government Osiris has ever had, and that many of the reforms it implemented were reforms people like you, Glen-Rhodes, et al. had suggested. That didn't stop y'all from continuing to criticize Osiris at every turn, though admittedly you were fairer about it than were Glen-Rhodes and some others such as Belschaft. Eventually, OFO 1.0 ignited into a dumpster fire that threatened to burn Osiris down (again), and I acted to stop that as best I could. Now Osiris has a healthier, stronger, more active, more supportive, less divided, and all around better community than it has ever had before.

Which brings me to my last point: What are the "issues" Osiris faces right now, in your mind? Other than your friends in the South Pacific still hating Osiris.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:48 pm

As a former Pharaoh of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, fuck the KRO.
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Zaolat
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Posts: 1419
Founded: Aug 01, 2011
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Zaolat » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:05 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:As a former Pharaoh of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, fuck the KRO.

Initially, I was worried about Tim and Cormac changing Osiris again. There were some issues somewhat early but minor in the end, and then it was more peaceful as far as comparing then and the past. Additionally, I didn't want to get caught up in some weird situation choosing sides that would make me feel like the Gatesville situation in stress. When I looked back on it, I think Cormac has made the right move.

While to some extent, Miniluvers or Ex-Miniluvers had an oligarchic nature in Osiris, I think those people tried to avoid everything possible that would be reminiscent to the KRO as well.
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USS Merrimack
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Posts: 9
Founded: Dec 30, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby USS Merrimack » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:19 am

Unibot III wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Osiris was a train wreck as a democracy, and it tried democracy twice, in several different forms. It's doing quite well as a meritocracy. It's almost like different regions have different communities, different needs, and different emphases on what matters to their communities.


With every iteration of Osiris' existence, you've defended Osiris publicly to me as "doing quite well" until you inevitably pull the plug out of the wall and reboot its systems, citing fundamental political issues. You said in the KRO days that Osiris was different, that illiberalism and kleptocracy was something inherent about its culture that met Osiris' needs - that democracy was an import from outside critics like me and Glen-Rhodes. This has always been your line, that Osiris is doing just fine and that apparent gaps in its liberalism serve Osiris' distinct needs and character.

You were the champion of the KRO until you sought to create the OFO. You were the champion of the OFO until you sought to reboot it with a monarchist bent. You're now a champion of OFO 2.0, right up until the point you might decide to change things up internally.

You've done a poor job articulating why individual political, social, and cultural rights may not "matter" as much for Osirans as much as they do with Rejects. Nor have you appreciated the connection between the issues Osiris is facing and its political structure - democracy offers a path for substantive local engagement that autocracy does not.

On a final note because I was too tired to spell it out last night...

As a rehash of Albert Breton's Economics of Nationalism, let's consider the Economics of Regionalism for a second. If we were to conceptualize political work and contribution in regions as skilled labour and NationStates as a global labour market, the "cost" of poaching a gameplayer from a wide pool of gameplayers outside of the region, without citizenship limitations, would be minuscule to a region - say $0.1 (an arbitrary number) - which reflects the effort to brand the region as an attractive, interesting place worth the time of gameplayers. I would also imagine that as the population of NationStates goes up or down, so does the cost.

If you place limitations on how many citizenships they can maintain, the cost of poaching will increase because skilled labour will resist attempts to limit their freedom of movement and opportunity - let's say an increase to $0.2. If you place limitations on what kind of political philosophy and values you want the labour to hold (e.g., a raider region will want to poach raiders), the pool of relevant labour shrinks and the cost to poach increases with the limited supply from $0.1 to $0.2. So if you're following, a cosmopolitian region poaching defenders specifically and putting restrictions on the number of citizenships they can maintain and where their WA must reside and under what conditions, will face a higher cost for poaching as a result, $0.3 versus $0.1. Meanwhile, a regionalist game-created region that wants to recruit and train new skilled labour "in-house" faces a punitive cost to finding similar labour from (overall) a much smaller, less skilled, less interested pool. And after you factor in (as a cost) the effort of training them and retaining these players from being poached, I might suggest the comparative cost of an "in house" native recruit might be as high as $0.6, double the $0.3 (again, just arbitrary numbers). A regionalist user-created region that wanted to do the same would face an even higher cost, say $0.7+ per head, reflecting the cost and effort of telegram recruitment campaigns.

An extreme cosmopolitian region, like say, the Meritocracy, pushes this rational argument to its extremes by focusing its efforts to grow as a region/organization by poaching skilled gameplayers from a very general, open pool, and incorporating them into its region with overriding, univeralistic values and the promotion of talent and merit. An extreme regionalist region has to overcome far higher costs and challenges to regional growth which are justified under nativism (i.e., training and promoting your own) - 10000 Islands, five years ago now, was the classic success story. The New Pacific Order is regionalist, but more moderate - it's rationalized and scaled up its labour recruitment like a cosmopolitian region would by intensely poaching skilled gameplayers and relocating NPOers from a metaverse, but has compensated for this practical approach by doubling down on its regionalist rhetoric and the traditional tribal psychology of inward-looking, regionalist societies.

This is why I would say meritocracy and cosmopolitianism go hand in hand - and it's foolhardy for Osiris to pursue one without the other. Conventional regionalist limitations on the free movement of labour and citizenship act like a tariff on global talent which regionalizes recruitment for an idealistic rather than practical end.

Members of Osiris don’t have to justify to you why Osiris works for them.
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Frattastan IV
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 132
Founded: Sep 02, 2018
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Frattastan IV » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:39 am

Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent?


APC or not, I think it's right to say that TRR is fundamentally at odds with the NPO (if you look at the values, worldview, diplomatic history of the two regions), even if/when it doesn't seek its destruction or tries to find a modus vivendi where we sometimes bicker but can still co-exist.
I am more surprised at those who argue that TRR is in bed with the NPO than at someone calling us 'the opposition'.
We can be at peace, as we are now (despite the lack of diplomatic relations): but we still don't "speak the same language", and I doubt we ever will.

Glacikaldr wrote:Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy.


Totes. And maybe Osiris will turn defender and refound the FRA with us because of its diplomatic crisis with Balder from last year.

Glacikaldr wrote:Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation?


I'd rather not. Then we would have to apologise ourselves for all the mean things we will inevitably say. ;)
Last edited by Frattastan IV on Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rejected Realms Army, High Commander

Draganisia wrote:Also it seems the next war could be NPO fighting directly against Pacifica.

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Xoriet
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1535
Founded: Jun 08, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby Xoriet » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:47 am

Good lord, Neq. Chill out for a minute. :p Everyone is getting way too combative. NPO has not gone democratic, NPO doesn't think TRR is on the side of the opposition, and TRT has been known for making statements that are sensational in general and/or objectionable to the subject of the article since Unibot still ran it. TRT tends to host a variety of views from a variety of writers, and one person's assessment of a situation does not equate to TRR's official stance on anything. If I want TRR's stance, I'll talk to Fratt. Anyone who thinks that TRT is indicative of TRR's foreign policy is a silly.
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