Advertisement
by Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:16 pm
by Zaolat » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:41 pm
The Aligned People wrote:In the announcement message of Vox Populi put out by East Durthang, he said this:East Durthang wrote:We look forward to further establishing the role of Vox Populi as a new norm within our society.
To me, that says that East is wanting to gain favor with others by saying that the Senator of the People is here, and it's here to stay. Also meaning that the "democratic process" (if you can call it that) used to select the Vox Populi is also here to stay. And as has been stated by Pierconium, the NPO has no intention to establish democracy within its borders. So since the NPO has no intention to establish democracy (a well-known fact), why would East make it seem as if he is all gung ho about reform? He said it himself, he wants it to be the new norm within the NPO even though he couldn't want democracy further away from them. So I very much so stand by the fact that the office of the Senator of the People is intended to give the perception of democracy.
You would think that my argument is factual if the Consul of the NPO is persistently debating with others in the thread about how I have a "fundamental lack of understanding."Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:In fact, I'd be interested in and love to see you write a response to The Aligned One's article on the position of Vox Populi.
Couldn't agree more Manson! I'll be waiting for it...
by Jar Wattinree » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:16 pm
Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros.
by Severisen » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:45 pm
by Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:18 pm
by Marilyn Manson Freaks » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:31 pm
by King HEM » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:44 pm
by Glacikaldr » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:49 pm
King HEM wrote:I understand that the Rejected Times has an opinion element, and I'm glad to see any media in the game up and running. That being said, it was a little bit...jarring to have an article praising the success of Osiris' meritocratic project right up against a condemnation of the New Pacific Order for not being a "real" democracy.
There are valid and reasonable criticisms of the New Pacific Order, before and after their recent reforms. But I don't think lack of democracy can be one of them if you like the meritocracy system in general.
by Jar Wattinree » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:04 pm
Glacikaldr wrote:I like to think TRR FA-wise stays neutral in the whole NPO v APC thing... meanwhile TRT has been critical of both parties as of late. Not to say that TRT is only a platform where people can yell about things they're passionate about, but it also serves that role for the citizenry and invited guests. Haven't been following GP that closely lately myself so I'm steering clear of those more generalising articles. Probably shouldn't have made that reply without checking everyone's actual stances. Apologies Jar Wattinree.
by Harenhime » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:16 pm
Severisen wrote:Harenhime's piece is being overlooked here and I think that's a shame. I'll admit that I'm guilty of the "gameplay is dead and sucks don't go there" mentality lately. But in the words of the great philosopher MJ, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror."
Thanks for the reminder, kid.
by Unibot III » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:55 pm
King HEM wrote:I understand that the Rejected Times has an opinion element, and I'm glad to see any media in the game up and running. That being said, it was a little bit...jarring to have an article praising the success of Osiris' meritocratic project right up against a condemnation of the New Pacific Order for not being a "real" democracy.
There are valid and reasonable criticisms of the New Pacific Order, before and after their recent reforms. But I don't think lack of democracy can be one of them if you like the meritocracy system in general.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Cormactopia Prime » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:38 pm
Unibot III wrote:<snip>
by Pierconium » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:39 pm
Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent? Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy. Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation? All that was done was call the NPO 'not democratic'. Not sure why that makes us your enemy but if you think it does then maybe TRR should have a few contentious votes coming up on the matter.
by The Church of Satan » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:14 am
Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent? Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy. Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation? All that was done was call the NPO 'not democratic'. Not sure why that makes us your enemy but if you think it does then maybe TRR should have a few contentious votes coming up on the matter.
Pierconium wrote:While it has been addressed somewhat, to be very clear, each issue of TRT states that it does not represent TRR. So if I note that TRT leans towards the opposition, which it seems to do, that is not the same as stating TRR is opposed to the NPO. It seems odd that members of TRR would not make this distinction when it originates on their end.
by Dalimbar » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:15 am
by Harenhime » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:14 am
Pierconium wrote:RiderSyl wrote:Oh yeah, all these comments definitely aren't outrage at the article. Don't believe your lying eyes!
I am not outraged by an opposition leaning news outlet claiming that the NPO is attempting to fool the world about democracy. I simply pointed out that it is incorrect. We aren’t claiming a move towards democracy. No outrage. Some here do seem upset though. Odd.
Armaros wrote:As a result, here you are screaming about how an "opposition leaning news outlet" (lmfao) how you never attenpted democracy. All good and well, but what do you think electing officials is called?
Marilyn Manson Freaks wrote:And Ivan, I just thought I'd bring this up, calling the region's newspaper an opposition paper is frankly absurd considering that literally anyone can write about anything except for OOC drama and (serious) random conspiracies theories.
Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless.
Zaolat wrote:Also for everyone else. Ivan never called TRT or TRR an opposition whatever. That was Armaros.
Pierconium wrote:So if I note that TRT leans towards the opposition, which it seems to do, that is not the same as stating TRR is opposed to the NPO. It seems odd that members of TRR would not make this distinction when it originates on their end.
by Unibot III » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:51 am
Cormactopia Prime wrote:Unibot III wrote:<snip>
Osiris was a train wreck as a democracy, and it tried democracy twice, in several different forms. It's doing quite well as a meritocracy. It's almost like different regions have different communities, different needs, and different emphases on what matters to their communities.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Cormactopia Prime » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:11 pm
Unibot III wrote:With every iteration of Osiris' existence, you've defended Osiris publicly to me as "doing quite well" until you inevitably pull the plug out of the wall and reboot its systems, citing fundamental political issues. You said in the KRO days that Osiris was different, that illiberalism and kleptocracy was something inherent about its culture that met Osiris' needs - that democracy was an import from outside critics like me and Glen-Rhodes. This has always been your line, that Osiris is doing just fine and that apparent gaps in its liberalism serve Osiris' distinct needs and character.
You were the champion of the KRO until you sought to create the OFO. You were the champion of the OFO until you sought to reboot it with a monarchist bent. You're now a champion of OFO 2.0, right up until the point you might decide to change things up internally.
You've done a poor job articulating why individual political, social, and cultural rights may not "matter" as much for Osirans as much as they do with Rejects. Nor have you appreciated the connection between the issues Osiris is facing and its political structure - democracy offers a path for substantive local engagement that autocracy does not.
by The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:48 pm
by Zaolat » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:05 pm
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:As a former Pharaoh of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris, fuck the KRO.
by USS Merrimack » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:19 am
Unibot III wrote:Cormactopia Prime wrote:Osiris was a train wreck as a democracy, and it tried democracy twice, in several different forms. It's doing quite well as a meritocracy. It's almost like different regions have different communities, different needs, and different emphases on what matters to their communities.
With every iteration of Osiris' existence, you've defended Osiris publicly to me as "doing quite well" until you inevitably pull the plug out of the wall and reboot its systems, citing fundamental political issues. You said in the KRO days that Osiris was different, that illiberalism and kleptocracy was something inherent about its culture that met Osiris' needs - that democracy was an import from outside critics like me and Glen-Rhodes. This has always been your line, that Osiris is doing just fine and that apparent gaps in its liberalism serve Osiris' distinct needs and character.
You were the champion of the KRO until you sought to create the OFO. You were the champion of the OFO until you sought to reboot it with a monarchist bent. You're now a champion of OFO 2.0, right up until the point you might decide to change things up internally.
You've done a poor job articulating why individual political, social, and cultural rights may not "matter" as much for Osirans as much as they do with Rejects. Nor have you appreciated the connection between the issues Osiris is facing and its political structure - democracy offers a path for substantive local engagement that autocracy does not.
On a final note because I was too tired to spell it out last night...
As a rehash of Albert Breton's Economics of Nationalism, let's consider the Economics of Regionalism for a second. If we were to conceptualize political work and contribution in regions as skilled labour and NationStates as a global labour market, the "cost" of poaching a gameplayer from a wide pool of gameplayers outside of the region, without citizenship limitations, would be minuscule to a region - say $0.1 (an arbitrary number) - which reflects the effort to brand the region as an attractive, interesting place worth the time of gameplayers. I would also imagine that as the population of NationStates goes up or down, so does the cost.
If you place limitations on how many citizenships they can maintain, the cost of poaching will increase because skilled labour will resist attempts to limit their freedom of movement and opportunity - let's say an increase to $0.2. If you place limitations on what kind of political philosophy and values you want the labour to hold (e.g., a raider region will want to poach raiders), the pool of relevant labour shrinks and the cost to poach increases with the limited supply from $0.1 to $0.2. So if you're following, a cosmopolitian region poaching defenders specifically and putting restrictions on the number of citizenships they can maintain and where their WA must reside and under what conditions, will face a higher cost for poaching as a result, $0.3 versus $0.1. Meanwhile, a regionalist game-created region that wants to recruit and train new skilled labour "in-house" faces a punitive cost to finding similar labour from (overall) a much smaller, less skilled, less interested pool. And after you factor in (as a cost) the effort of training them and retaining these players from being poached, I might suggest the comparative cost of an "in house" native recruit might be as high as $0.6, double the $0.3 (again, just arbitrary numbers). A regionalist user-created region that wanted to do the same would face an even higher cost, say $0.7+ per head, reflecting the cost and effort of telegram recruitment campaigns.
An extreme cosmopolitian region, like say, the Meritocracy, pushes this rational argument to its extremes by focusing its efforts to grow as a region/organization by poaching skilled gameplayers from a very general, open pool, and incorporating them into its region with overriding, univeralistic values and the promotion of talent and merit. An extreme regionalist region has to overcome far higher costs and challenges to regional growth which are justified under nativism (i.e., training and promoting your own) - 10000 Islands, five years ago now, was the classic success story. The New Pacific Order is regionalist, but more moderate - it's rationalized and scaled up its labour recruitment like a cosmopolitian region would by intensely poaching skilled gameplayers and relocating NPOers from a metaverse, but has compensated for this practical approach by doubling down on its regionalist rhetoric and the traditional tribal psychology of inward-looking, regionalist societies.
This is why I would say meritocracy and cosmopolitianism go hand in hand - and it's foolhardy for Osiris to pursue one without the other. Conventional regionalist limitations on the free movement of labour and citizenship act like a tariff on global talent which regionalizes recruitment for an idealistic rather than practical end.
by Frattastan IV » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:39 am
Glacikaldr wrote:Interesting to note that a Pacifican sees TRR as the opposition nevertheless. So, we've been clumped into the APC even though we've purposefully stayed independent?
Glacikaldr wrote:Sounds like we should consider joining the APC if the NPO already sees us as the enemy.
Glacikaldr wrote:Perhaps the NPO would like to apologise to avoid an escalation?
Draganisia wrote:Also it seems the next war could be NPO fighting directly against Pacifica.
by Xoriet » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:47 am
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Emagination, Rudastan
Advertisement