Christmas - A proposal

[Ravania Prima]

As I see it 'Christmas' should remain founderless and keep the liberation. Just to make sure it will never belong to one single group or person.

To the idea of making it a meeting place for NS-ers on Christmas-day, I give my full support and will attend if invited.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Just to make sure it will never belong to one single group or person

Until Joe Imperialist shows up and makes it a colony of theirs.

[Ravania Prima]

Just to make sure it will never belong to one single group or person

Until Joe Imperialist shows up and makes it a locked colony of theirs.

That's why the 'liberation' must remain... like I said...

[Ambroscus Koth]

Until Joe Imperialist shows up and makes it a locked colony of theirs.

That's why the 'liberation' must remain... like I said...

We didn't get any resistance while we were in there, but now that I think about it more there could have been a lot of ways to prevent the refound.

Whatever. I'll accept that.

[A Million Voices]

I sort of like seeing it open and without a password, but that is just me. If it was refounded, it'd be quite worthless.

I'm not going to oppose anything that could help secure native communities, but I do think its a little weird to specify that an fairly important part of Christianity is protected as sacred ground, but Islamic regions have often been picked on, Islam, Islamic Republic of Iran, Region of reunited muslim states etc. and there wasn't even UDL-TITO cooperation to help those regions, let alone cooperation between defenders and raiders.

Oh dear.

[Letoilenoir]

We will donate all oof our share issue to the charity fund to save christmas

This isn't a roleplay thread

I like the idea Wordy but you'll never get every raider group to agree.

Tongue in cheek reference to the OP mentioning the last unity project - didn't realise we had to leave our SOH at the door when we entered DYP

[Sichuan Pepper]

It is a shame but I cannot see it working with so many against the idea.
It was worth putting out there though. I will scrap the idea but my thanks to everyone that posted even if I do not agree with some.

[Punk Daddy]

To be honest, if/when Christmas returns to its inactive state, the rhetoric of the Asgardians will be proven correct.

Asgard wished to refound the region and bring some culture to it. Defenders got up in arms and used the SC to put the kabosh on that goal.

Asgard didn't want to make Christmas a DMZ, but wanted to make it worth something. You can decry the methods used, sure, but we'll see if in the end the greater good will be served by the liberation.

That there are defenders "occupying" Christmas should come as no surprise...and if anyone is surprised you haven't been paying attention to the R/D game.

i wish the natives of Christmas well...

[Sichuan Pepper]

Asgard wanted to own it.
TITO is in Christmas by request. Natives there were ejected by Asgard do not feel safe with those nations still in region and still WA.
I cannot say I blame them.

[Ambroscus Koth]

*rolls eyes*

[TUR Founder]

I don't think you could get everyone on both sides to agree, also what is so special about Christmas that would have it deserve something like this?

[Cromarty]

We have already put significant time and work into Christmas -- more than any native ever has --
-snip-
would in all likelihood destroy NationStates.

Oh the arrogance and overinflated self importance.

[Cromarty]

To be honest, if/when Christmas returns to its inactive state, the rhetoric of the Asgardians will be proven correct.

Asgard wished to refound the region and bring some culture to it. Defenders got up in arms and used the SC to put the kabosh on that goal.

Asgard didn't want to make Christmas a DMZ, but wanted to make it worth something.

Bullshit. Asgard wanted a trophy, nothing more.

They had no plan for the region beyond 'oh we'll do something at Christmas'. How does that make them any more deserving of the region than the natives? Here's a hint: it doesn't. Asgard was only there to make Christmas a trophy region, inactive for 11 and a half months of the year.

[Cromarty]

*rolls eyes*

A compelling and convincing argument.

You've certainly won me over.

[Manegarmr]

If you DO get an agreement here's an early gift:

[Bears Armed]

If you DO get an agreement here's an early gift:

(Image)

Nice!

[Rachel Anumia]

To be honest, if/when Christmas returns to its inactive state, the rhetoric of the Asgardians will be proven correct.

Asgard wished to refound the region and bring some culture to it. Defenders got up in arms and used the SC to put the kabosh on that goal.

Asgard didn't want to make Christmas a DMZ, but wanted to make it worth something.

Bullshit. Asgard wanted a trophy, nothing more.

They had no plan for the region beyond 'oh we'll do something at Christmas'. How does that make them any more deserving of the region than the natives? Here's a hint: it doesn't. Asgard was only there to make Christmas a trophy region, inactive for 11 and a half months of the year.

Your opinion sounds more like an assumption. To be fair, even if Asgard didn't succeed in making it more active was it that bad to have tried? After all, isn't that the defender slogan? "At least we are trying".

[Cromarty]

Bullshit. Asgard wanted a trophy, nothing more.

They had no plan for the region beyond 'oh we'll do something at Christmas'. How does that make them any more deserving of the region than the natives? Here's a hint: it doesn't. Asgard was only there to make Christmas a trophy region, inactive for 11 and a half months of the year.

Your opinion sounds more like an assumption.

An assumption based on the actions and words of members of Asgard on the forums and in IRC channels.

To be fair, even if Asgard didn't succeed in making it more active was it that bad to have tried?

No it wasn't bad that Asgard tried. What was bad was how Asgard went about it. Instead of going what I believe is known as the TAO route, they decided to take unilateral, oppressive action.

After all, isn't that the defender slogan? "At least we are trying".

'At Least They're Trying' is the title of an Oliver the Mediocre authored essay in response to HEM's 'Debunking Defenderism'. It is not, nor has it ever been to the best of my knowledge, the slogan of any defender organisation or defenders as a whole.

[Sichuan Pepper]

If you DO get an agreement here's an early gift:

(Image)

That's very nice work!

[Cormac Stark]

We actually did have plans for Christmas beyond an annual Christmas celebration, as we pointed out on numerous occasions. We were asked what our plans were for the cultural revitalization of the region and one plan was to make Christmas the host to an annual multi-region winter holiday celebration. Beyond that, we did in fact plan to help natives establish an offsite forum and a regional government (as we said again and again), to teach them how to recruit and welcome, etc. We were also talking about an annual Christmas in July celebration for summer games and such.

Now, I will admit that these plans were not thoroughly developed yet -- but we were taking things one step at a time. We had just imposed password protection and were still not even anywhere near the refounding stage of our plan as there were still four inactive puppets in the region with very high influence that needed to be ejected before refounding would even have been possible.

All that said, even if our plan had only consisted of making Christmas active for one month out of the year that would still be one month more active than it had ever been before and will likely ever be again. As is abundantly clear from a look back at the regional history and the regional message board, Christmas is only active when it's raided and I see no signs of that changing anytime soon. I'm sure activity will fall off once the TITO raid detagging is complete.

[Galiantus]

We actually did have plans for Christmas beyond an annual Christmas celebration, as we pointed out on numerous occasions. We were asked what our plans were for the cultural revitalization of the region and one plan was to make Christmas the host to an annual multi-region winter holiday celebration. Beyond that, we did in fact plan to help natives establish an offsite forum and a regional government (as we said again and again), to teach them how to recruit and welcome, etc. We were also talking about an annual Christmas in July celebration for summer games and such.

Now, I will admit that these plans were not thoroughly developed yet -- but we were taking things one step at a time. We had just imposed password protection and were still not even anywhere near the refounding stage of our plan as there were still four inactive puppets in the region with very high influence that needed to be ejected before refounding would even have been possible.

All that said, even if our plan had only consisted of making Christmas active for one month out of the year that would still be one month more active than it had ever been before and will likely ever be again. As is abundantly clear from a look back at the regional history and the regional message board, Christmas is only active when it's raided and I see no signs of that changing anytime soon. I'm sure activity will fall off once the TITO raid detagging is complete.

^This.

Defenders. What you have failed to realise is that there are a few things more important than keeping a region raider-free. Where is the value in NS if people don't interact? Where is the value if there is no culture or pride? None. What Asgard was trying to do was very noble compared to some of their other actions. They have, or at least most of them have, realized that the existance of a region is only important if it is being used to promote NationStates, make it a fun place, and keep people playing. If Christmas was to be refounded it would have a chance at being worth more than just a desirable name. It would be a community, and that's what matters.

By passing "Liberate Christmas" you killed that chance, you killed any hope of Christmas having a chance to grow, recruit, and become great before the holiday. As a founderless region, all it has done is provided entertainment to invaders every holiday season.

Defenders are good because they try to keep regions in control of natives. Defenders are bad when they stifle growing communities in their attempts to protect regions. Invaders are inherantly bad because they eject natives, place passwords, and take over regions. They are good because they sometimes give regions like Christmas a chance to become great. Defenders. I stand with you on the issue of regional control. However, I stand with the invaders whenever they do something like this; it revitalizes regions, gives them the life-blood of their existence which is activity. Please consider what you have done and give Christmas a chance to grow.

[Ambroscus Koth]

*rolls eyes*

A compelling and convincing argument.

You've certainly won me over.

Sometimes Georgie...sometimes I don't want to argue.

They had no plan for the region beyond 'oh we'll do something at Christmas'. How does that make them any more deserving of the region than the natives? Here's a hint: it doesn't. Asgard was only there to make Christmas a trophy region, inactive for 11 and a half months of the year.

Tell that to Venico and his list of fun cultural stuff he had planned.

[Weed]

Tell that to Venico and his list of fun cultural stuff he had planned.

If the leaders of Asgard were capable of making Christmas an active cultural hub of NationStates shouldn't they also have the ability to make Asgard active and culturally impressive? Personally, I'd never heard of Asgard before this but I haven't been as deep in gameplay these last few months. But looking at their RMB I have doubts. I'd look at their forums but they've hidden it from guests. I could be wrong, I suppose, but...

Count me a skeptic.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Tell that to Venico and his list of fun cultural stuff he had planned.

If the leaders of Asgard were capable of making Christmas an active cultural hub of NationStates shouldn't they also have the ability to make Asgard active and culturally impressive? Personally, I'd never heard of Asgard before this but I haven't been as deep in gameplay these last few months. But looking at their RMB I have doubts. I'd look at their forums but they've hidden it from guests. I could be wrong, I suppose, but...

Count me a skeptic.

You don't judge a region by its RMB. And I could talk about all the cultural stuff Ven has been doing in Asgard since his appointment but I'll leave that to him.

EDIT: Also, I don't feel the need to impress you, Topid.

[Weed]

EDIT: Also, I don't feel the need to impress you, Topid.

I would be concerned if you did.

My only point is, every time a refounding is stopped, raiders bemoan the loss at what would have been an amazing awe-inspiring cultural hub of NationStates. Yet not once by my memory has a refounding succeeded and that been the actual result. I mean nothing against Asgard's ability versus anyone else's, I do not think it could be done by any region.