Lazarene Government - The State Of The Union

[The Church of Satan]

Except that you don't care about regional law so that negates literally everything you say about it.

[Metal Mekhet]

Except that you don't care about regional law so that negates literally everything you say about it.

He does though. Difference is, is whether regional law means delegate or not.

[Old Hope]

Cormac, why bother trying to justify Funk's coup with regional law (which it can't) when you yourself have admitted that you don't care about Lazarene law?

I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.

Yeah but Funk resigned.

[Altheriol]

I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.

Yeah but Funk resigned.

Resigned as what? He's still Delegate, and is proposing to make himself King.

[Solorni]

Yeah but Funk resigned.

Resigned as what? He's still Delegate, and is proposing to make himself King.

Linky for proposal to make himself king?

[Tinhampton]

Resigned as what? He's still Delegate, and is proposing to make himself King.

Linky for proposal to make himself king?

http://s15.zetaboards.com/NSLazarus/top ... 271/5/#new
A link seen on the Lazarus RMB. Mind you, I don't have an account on the Lazarus forums (whether for the official government or the rebels), so I can't see it. If you aren't on the Lazarus forums on which this is hosted (the official government ones), you too will have the same problems.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I've already answered this question at least twice. The "resistance" calling itself a "government-in-exile" bases its entire argument on the rule of law, so it is hypocritical -- and entirely defeats your purpose -- for you to engage in illegal activities. One can point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency, and how it completely undermines your entire effort, without actually sharing your opinion on the rule of law.

If evidence came showing that both sides have done an equal amount of things outside of the law, which side would you support?

Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined. That is actually why I support Funkadelia now; it has nothing to do with Lazarene law, which is a mess and is just holding Lazarus back. The current state of Lazarene law is such that it can be easily exploited by userites who do not have the best interests of Lazarus in mind or at heart. There is no reason anyone should support the "resistance," and if blind legalism is the only reason for supporting them, it is a poor reason indeed.

Except that you don't care about regional law so that negates literally everything you say about it.

This isn't a hard concept. Your side has based its entire argument, the entire reason for the existence of the "resistance" and the "government-in-exile," upon the law of Lazarus. If you are violating the law, you are undermining the only case for supporting you. This remains true regardless of my position on Lazarene law, because what is important is your position, as it is the sole rationalization for supporting you.

I suspect this, as well as the general behavior of the "resistance" thus far, is why more regions that are usually inclined to support a "government-in-exile" in a situation like this are not supporting you. There is nothing to support. You've undermined your whole cause, and you continue to undermine it.

[Solorni]

Linky for proposal to make himself king?

http://s15.zetaboards.com/NSLazarus/top ... 271/5/#new
A link seen on the Lazarus RMB. Mind you, I don't have an account on the Lazarus forums (whether for the official government or the rebels), so I can't see it. If you aren't on the Lazarus forums on which this is hosted (the official government ones), you too will have the same problems.

Yeah, I can't see it. I wasn't doubting that this was proposed, I was just very curious to see the proposal.

[Senator Elegarth]

If evidence came showing that both sides have done an equal amount of things outside of the law, which side would you support?

Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined. That is actually why I support Funkadelia now; it has nothing to do with Lazarene law, which is a mess and is just holding Lazarus back. The current state of Lazarene law is such that it can be easily exploited by userites who do not have the best interests of Lazarus in mind or at heart. There is no reason anyone should support the "resistance," and if blind legalism is the only reason for supporting them, it is a poor reason indeed.

Heh, at least that answer makes sense to me. Thanks for replying!

EDIT

I just wish you weren't trying to become the new prophet of Userite/Feederite movements, thanks, k, bye

[New Rogernomics]

[...]Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined. That is actually why I support Funkadelia now; it has nothing to do with Lazarene law, which is a mess and is just holding Lazarus back.[...]

Also we are meant to believe sucking up to the sitting delegate, and personal political ambition has nothing to do with it.

Watch out Funkadelia, Cormac is out for your job.

[Cormactopia Prime]

http://s15.zetaboards.com/NSLazarus/top ... 271/5/#new
A link seen on the Lazarus RMB. Mind you, I don't have an account on the Lazarus forums (whether for the official government or the rebels), so I can't see it. If you aren't on the Lazarus forums on which this is hosted (the official government ones), you too will have the same problems.

Yeah, I can't see it. I wasn't doubting that this was proposed, I was just very curious to see the proposal.

I haven't yet seen the proposal, but from what I'm told, he is proposing a constitutional monarchy similar to the system I introduced in Osiris in April 2016, which is not all that dissimilar to Balder's system, albeit Osiris' and Balder's monarchs do not have much governmental power. On the other hand, this was not initially the case in Osiris, because the Pharaoh needed more power immediately after the April 2016 crisis and it has gradually been reduced over time. There is no reason to believe this could not also be the case in Lazarus. In the meantime, such a system would introduce badly needed stability.

Constitutional monarchy has had an enormously stabilizing effect on Osiris, has consolidated the already laudable stability of Balder, and has worked extremely well for numerous user-created regions. While the "resistance" would like everyone to believe that constitutional monarchy is dictatorship, the truth of the matter is that constitutional monarchy in a Feeder or Sinker creates an environment in which liberalism and democracy can actually flourish, while it has been Lazarus' so-called "democratic" system that has generated illiberalism, oligarchy, and chaos.

I just wish you weren't trying to become the new prophet of Userite/Feederite movements, thanks, k, bye

I'm sure you aren't the only one. Alas, I've never much cared what other people wish. I do my own thing.

[...]Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined. That is actually why I support Funkadelia now; it has nothing to do with Lazarene law, which is a mess and is just holding Lazarus back.[...]

Also we are meant to believe sucking up to the sitting delegate, and personal political ambition has nothing to do with it.

Watch out Funkadelia, Cormac is out for your job.

That must also be why I supported him against Stujenske and the NLO. It couldn't possibly be because I see his dedication to Lazarus as being similar to my dedication to Osiris, despite our differences with each other, and I simply think he is the right person to support in these situations.

I have not even asked Funkadelia to repeal my persona non grata designation in Lazarus (except publicly and in jest before this even started, on the News with Booze Discord server), and I have no plans to ask that the designation be repealed. I am supporting Funkadelia because he deserves support.

[Funkadelia]

I haven't yet seen the proposal, but from what I'm told, he is proposing a constitutional monarchy similar to the system I introduced in Osiris in April 2016, which is not all that dissimilar to Balder's system, albeit Osiris' and Balder's monarchs do not have much governmental power. On the other hand, this was not initially the case in Osiris, because the Pharaoh needed more power immediately after the April 2016 crisis and it has gradually been reduced over time. There is no reason to believe this could not also be the case in Lazarus. In the meantime, such a system would introduce badly needed stability.

Constitutional monarchy has had an enormously stabilizing effect on Osiris, has consolidated the already laudable stability of Balder, and has worked extremely well for numerous user-created regions. While the "resistance" would like everyone to believe that constitutional monarchy is dictatorship, the truth of the matter is that constitutional monarchy in a Feeder or Sinker creates an environment in which liberalism and democracy can actually flourish, while it has been Lazarus' so-called "democratic" system that has generated illiberalism, oligarchy, and chaos.

I believe Sinkers are in an unfortunate situation where they can be easily exploited, especially in cases of completely open democracy, by people who have personal and foreign agendas. We've seen this sort of exploitation first hand in this attempted coup. My proposed constitution, as well as those of Osiris and Balder, do not completely remove democracy, as that would obviously not be a good idea, but they lend more power to those who actually have stake in the region and want to see it improved for its own sake.

[Pierconium]

I haven't yet seen the proposal, but from what I'm told, he is proposing a constitutional monarchy similar to the system I introduced in Osiris in April 2016, which is not all that dissimilar to Balder's system, albeit Osiris' and Balder's monarchs do not have much governmental power. On the other hand, this was not initially the case in Osiris, because the Pharaoh needed more power immediately after the April 2016 crisis and it has gradually been reduced over time. There is no reason to believe this could not also be the case in Lazarus. In the meantime, such a system would introduce badly needed stability.

Constitutional monarchy has had an enormously stabilizing effect on Osiris, has consolidated the already laudable stability of Balder, and has worked extremely well for numerous user-created regions. While the "resistance" would like everyone to believe that constitutional monarchy is dictatorship, the truth of the matter is that constitutional monarchy in a Feeder or Sinker creates an environment in which liberalism and democracy can actually flourish, while it has been Lazarus' so-called "democratic" system that has generated illiberalism, oligarchy, and chaos.

I believe Sinkers are in an unfortunate situation where they can be easily exploited, especially in cases of completely open democracy, by people who have personal and foreign agendas. We've seen this sort of exploitation first hand in this attempted coup. My proposed constitution, as well as those of Osiris and Balder, do not completely remove democracy, as that would obviously not be a good idea, but they lend more power to those who actually have stake in the region and want to see it improved for its own sake.

A sound philosophy.

[Elegarth]

I haven't yet seen the proposal, but from what I'm told, he is proposing a constitutional monarchy similar to the system I introduced in Osiris in April 2016, which is not all that dissimilar to Balder's system, albeit Osiris' and Balder's monarchs do not have much governmental power. On the other hand, this was not initially the case in Osiris, because the Pharaoh needed more power immediately after the April 2016 crisis and it has gradually been reduced over time. There is no reason to believe this could not also be the case in Lazarus. In the meantime, such a system would introduce badly needed stability.

Constitutional monarchy has had an enormously stabilizing effect on Osiris, has consolidated the already laudable stability of Balder, and has worked extremely well for numerous user-created regions. While the "resistance" would like everyone to believe that constitutional monarchy is dictatorship, the truth of the matter is that constitutional monarchy in a Feeder or Sinker creates an environment in which liberalism and democracy can actually flourish, while it has been Lazarus' so-called "democratic" system that has generated illiberalism, oligarchy, and chaos.

I believe Sinkers are in an unfortunate situation where they can be easily exploited, especially in cases of completely open democracy, by people who have personal and foreign agendas. We've seen this sort of exploitation first hand in this attempted coup. My proposed constitution, as well as those of Osiris and Balder, do not completely remove democracy, as that would obviously not be a good idea, but they lend more power to those who actually have stake in the region and want to see it improved for its own sake.

And this is only natural AND logical.

[Frattastan II]

I believe Sinkers are in an unfortunate situation where they can be easily exploited, especially in cases of completely open democracy, by people who have personal and foreign agendas. We've seen this sort of exploitation first hand in this attempted coup. My proposed constitution, as well as those of Osiris and Balder, do not completely remove democracy, as that would obviously not be a good idea, but they lend more power to those who actually have stake in the region and want to see it improved for its own sake.

I thought your opinion was pretty much the opposite back in 2015, in light of the experience with the PRL.
I am not certain it was you, but I recall that the general opinion was that the NLO coup had been facilitated by the extensive powers (and centralisation) given to the Delegate by the PRL constitution.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I believe Sinkers are in an unfortunate situation where they can be easily exploited, especially in cases of completely open democracy, by people who have personal and foreign agendas. We've seen this sort of exploitation first hand in this attempted coup. My proposed constitution, as well as those of Osiris and Balder, do not completely remove democracy, as that would obviously not be a good idea, but they lend more power to those who actually have stake in the region and want to see it improved for its own sake.

I thought your opinion was pretty much the opposite back in 2015, in light of the experience with the PRL.
I am not certain it was you, but I recall that the general opinion was that the NLO coup had been facilitated by the extensive powers (and centralisation) given to the Delegate by the PRL constitution.

It's been two years. What is this fixation with opinions never evolving and staying etched in stone? He's had two years to see the effects of "completely open democracy" in Lazarus, and it's only to be expected that his opinion may have changed upon seeing those effects. Moreover, I don't think adoption of a constitutional monarchy can possibly be construed to be the same as the illiberal, dictatorial system behind the People's Republic of Lazarus.

I will note that members of the "resistance" had been advocating a return to the actual system behind the People's Republic of Lazarus.

[Frattastan II]

It's been two years. What is this fixation with opinions never evolving and staying etched in stone? He's had two years to see the effects of "completely open democracy" in Lazarus, and it's only to be expected that his opinion may have changed upon seeing those effects. Moreover, I don't think adoption of a constitutional monarchy can possibly be construed to be the same as the illiberal, dictatorial system behind the People's Republic of Lazarus.

I didn't know you were Funk's spokesman now. If I wanted your opinion about this I would've asked when you did it in Osiris.

As we know all coups since Devonitians have been made either by rogue delegates, or by members of a closed-off security apparatus.
If a government is highly centralised then you don't have the problem of vote-stacking (supposedly), but the region is pretty much at the mercy of a single person, and what they want and do. This is the same issue that made the NLO possible in first place.

EDIT: Before someone puts words in my mouth (as it will predictably happen), I don't expect to decide how other regions should rule themselves, and I don't want to proclaim the superiority of any form of government. I was just curious as to how this can be reconciled with previous concerns about the effects of centralised government in Lazarus.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I didn't know you were Funk's spokesman now. If I wanted your opinion about this I would've asked when you did it in Osiris.

I'm not, but I'm pretty tired of the "gotcha" tactics. "You said this two years ago" isn't really a valid argument. People learn based on experience, especially in this game, and you can't expect that they're going to have the same opinion on everything as they did years ago.

And if you didn't want others' opinions, you could have asked Funkadelia by telegram. I don't care if you want my opinion, there it is anyway.

As we know all coups since Devonitians have been made either by rogue delegates, or by members of a closed-off security apparatus.
If a government is highly centralised then you don't have the problem of vote-stacking (supposedly), but the region is pretty much at the mercy of a single person, and what they want and do. This is the same issue that made the NLO possible in first place.

There are risks inherent in every system. I assume you've noticed Lazarus' current system has produced some pretty undesirable results?

Much of these issues revolve more around the personalities involved than the systems of government, in any case. If you put a personality like Stujenske in the leadership of a highly centralized government, you can expect problems. Conversely, if you allow a personality like Ikania and other members of this "resistance" into a highly decentralized government, you can expect problems. It is much easier to be vigilant and cautious regarding which type of personality is placed in the Delegacy of a Feeder or Sinker when it is a constitutional monarchy.

[Old Hope]

If evidence came showing that both sides have done an equal amount of things outside of the law, which side would you support?

Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined. That is actually why I support Funkadelia now; it has nothing to do with Lazarene law, which is a mess and is just holding Lazarus back. The current state of Lazarene law is such that it can be easily exploited by userites who do not have the best interests of Lazarus in mind or at heart. There is no reason anyone should support the "resistance," and if blind legalism is the only reason for supporting them, it is a poor reason indeed.

Except that you don't care about regional law so that negates literally everything you say about it.

This isn't a hard concept. Your side has based its entire argument, the entire reason for the existence of the "resistance" and the "government-in-exile," upon the law of Lazarus. If you are violating the law, you are undermining the only case for supporting you. This remains true regardless of my position on Lazarene law, because what is important is your position, as it is the sole rationalization for supporting you.

I suspect this, as well as the general behavior of the "resistance" thus far, is why more regions that are usually inclined to support a "government-in-exile" in a situation like this are not supporting you. There is nothing to support. You've undermined your whole cause, and you continue to undermine it.

If you ignore the laws...
then you should state that you are abolishing the former laws as delegate because they did hold the region back/were instuments of opression/whatever.
Or you try to follow the laws and use them against your political opponents if the region has problems.
Or you insist that you do something legal, and accuse your opponent of something illegal, then you violate the law in a manner that shows disrespect for the laws and you try to use propaganda to make your actions look legal.
I can definitely support the second option.
I can also support the first option if I find that the laws were not serving the people but rather harming the region, and if I see evidence that efforts to change them failed because of a too high majority requirement(also including an oligarchic/monarchic or not WA based decision making process) and/or misuse of bans and such.
But Funkadelia and KillerKitty chose to go for option 3, so I cannot support them.

[Consular]

People learn based on experience

In Funk's case they apparently do not. He's going down the same road the PRL did, and it leads to the same place.

[Todd McCloud]

I think I like the transparent with purple and green theme, but the jade theme has an image that is currently blocked by photobucket.

[Fastest Man Alive]

I was always a Red Lazarus guy, Light Themes make my eyes bleed.

[Drop Your Pants]

Funkadelia's, because he is the sitting Delegate, and because he has contributed more to Lazarus than probably the entire "resistance" combined.

Except Harmie And now back to lurking.

[United Federated States of Omega]

So I suppose I do need to answer to the fact that I have been accused of obstructing justice. For those of you who missed it here is the original accusation from Killer Kitty:

In addition to the very real possibility of outside support, the conspirators attempted to subvert the Court in their favor. To aid in this effort, they enlisted the help of current Prelate Omega, who actively attempted to prevent the Court from pressing charges against one of his fellow co-conspirators, Amerion. Lazarus law states that the Court must have a minimum of three Prelates in order to rule on a case, and currently only has three. To prevent the Court from functioning, Omega was recusing himself from every case presented. This essentially attempted to shut the Courts down. This blatant perversion of the law is mentioned several times in the damning screenshots, including when Omega states "I am shutting his power on the court", referring to the elected Holy Prelate, Killer Kitty, who heads the Court. This egregious abuse of power was intended to protect the plot from any legal issues, such as the charges against Amerion, although this effort clearly failed in the end.

To make this easy I'm just going to go through this piece by piece:

In addition to the very real possibility of outside support, the conspirators attempted to subvert the Court in their favor.

Okay, I couldn't change the composition of the court. There was no way I could change that to make it in anyone's favor. Also, I would like to think I generally took a position that represented what the law had to say, not what my personal beliefs are. If you need any further example feel free to read my dissent in this case in which I argued that Church of Satan (a good friend of mine) could not legally serve on the court. I have not sought to serve my personal interests or the interests of others on the court, I was always looking to uphold what the law says to the letter. So I'm not quite sure why I would look to subvert the court in anyone's favor.

To aid in this effort, they enlisted the help of current Prelate Omega, who actively attempted to prevent the Court from pressing charges against one of his fellow co-conspirators, Amerion. Lazarus law states that the Court must have a minimum of three Prelates in order to rule on a case, and currently only has three. To prevent the Court from functioning, Omega was recusing himself from every case presented.

Yes, I was and still am part of the resistance but I would like to make it very clear that no one in the resistance knew what I would do on the Court until I had done it. Again: I am very big on the rule of law, and I, as a prelate, felt it imperative that I act on my own accord in these matters. Members of the resistance can attest to this I'm sure and I would stake my personal honor on the fact that I acted on my own volition when working on the Court.

Now they bring up that I recused myself from every case presented. That is a true statement. There were 2 cases presented. On the first one I recused myself because if we were to rule that Funkadelia had illegally administered my reconfirmation vote, I would no longer be on the Court, a clear conflict of interest. The second case was the charges brought up against Amerion. At this point in time, I had been reading the Mandate to determine if it was, in fact, true that a Prelate needed the Celestial Being's blessing in order to begin ruling on cases. My conclusion, based on my own study of the laws was as follows: The Cosmic Council can only select Prelate Nominees, not Prelates. An individual only becomes a Prelate, with the power to rule on cases, when the Celestial Being has granted them their blessing. In this case, Killer Kity did not yet have the Celestial Being blessing, in which case I was of the personal legal opinion that he was not a legally serving Prelate. I subsequentially recused myself stating that Killer Kitty intended to proceed with giving a ruling on the trial, one he legally couldn't give and as such I would do what I could to prevent an illegal ruling from being made. The statement on my recusal can be found here.

This blatant perversion of the law is mentioned several times in the damning screenshots, including when Omega states "I am shutting his power on the court", referring to the elected Holy Prelate, Killer Kitty, who heads the Court. This egregious abuse of power was intended to protect the plot from any legal issues, such as the charges against Amerion, although this effort clearly failed in the end.

First off I am legally allowed to recuse myself for whatever reasons I see fit. In this case, the first one was due to the fact I believed I had a clear conflict of interest and the second was because I wished to uphold the laws of the region. Second off, I was refereeing to the Prelate-Nominee masquerading as Holy Prelate, Killer Kitty. I was stopping him from having any power on a court which he legally had no right to have any power on. Now Killer Kitty will say I voted for him to be Holy Prelate, when in fact I did abstain from that vote.
Now I'm not sure how I was abusing my power when I only recused myself a mind boggling two times, and both of which were for sensible reasons that would ordinarily be praised by any region that was still respecting the rule of law, but evidently I forgot that the rule of law had been thrown out the window.
Now if legal issues did arise and I would, of course, look to have a fair and honest trial, and I would make my ruling based on the law. I have no history of protecting my friends on the court and I have always looked to rule and act on the Court based on one thing and one thing only: the law.

[Killer Kitty]

Second off, I was refereeing to the Prelate-Nominee masquerading as Holy Prelate, Killer Kitty. I was stopping him from having any power on a court which he legally had no right to have any power on. Now Killer Kitty will say I voted for him to be Holy Prelate, when in fact I did abstain from that vote.

Hmm, I have some logs here that make your claims seem rather dubious.

Omega added Ebil_Wolfie to the group.07/15/2017

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
Hail!

Omega - 07/15/2017
Evening gentleman. First off, congrats to EW on his confirmation. First things first, we need a holy prelate.

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
Sure. Is Adytus about?

Omega - 07/15/2017
Idk

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
Hmm, sorta need him here, don't we?

Omega - 07/15/2017
Well yes
We would need him

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
The waiting game begins

Ebil_Wolfie changed the channel icon.07/15/2017

Adytus - 07/15/2017
I'm around now.
Sorry, was driving.

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
I think now Omega is gone :stuck_out_tongue:

Adytus - 07/15/2017
Lol
I shouldn't be going anywhere tonight
So I'll be here

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
I mean, we basically vote among ourselves, right?

Adytus - 07/15/2017
Ye

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
Alright. I nominate myself :stuck_out_tongue:

Adytus - 07/15/2017
I'll vote for you.
So that should be it honestly

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
I will also vote for me. So yeah, seems like a wrap
We'll wait for Omega's input

Omega - 07/15/2017
That's that

Ebil_Wolfie - 07/15/2017
Wicked