[PASSED] Repeal Protecting Sites of Religious Significance

[Verdant Haven]

"It's a little better in my opinion but my main concern remains that it is an extremely semantic complaint to make of the target. You think one individual would go to the effort of forming their own religion in order to gain these protections on their property, when member states could impose a plethora of bureaucratic steps for getting it officially recognised as a religion? I do not believe that is realistic."

The target resolution does not include the actual nation in the identification of religions or religious sites - national authorities are specifically skipped over. The designation is strictly at the discretion of religious leaders only, who declare themselves directly with the international committee in order to garner protections regardless of the nation's interest.

This is one of several major things about the target resolution that are problematic. The "reasonable interpretation" argument does not work, because if one uses "reasonable interpretation" that makes the entire thing a duplication of GAR 287. We challenged its legality on the basis of being that duplication, and were told that because it skips over national authority, and does not allow for reasonable interpretation, it is therefore sufficiently different to stand alone. The specific statement from the Secretariat member is:

"[GAR 287] designates sites in consultation with member nations, here [GAR 522] designates sites in consultation with faith leaders, and mandates member nations accept such sites as designated sites."

The target resolution is utterly stomping on national laws and judgements of what is relevant.

[Refuge Isle]

The target resolution does not include the actual nation in the identification of religions or religious sites - national authorities are specifically skipped over. The designation is strictly at the discretion of religious leaders only, who declare themselves directly with the international committee in order to garner protections regardless of the nation's interest.

I don't disagree with this, although a resolution protecting religious sites is presumably aimed at a government who does not want to acknowledge or support a religion whose site it is. Seeking out ways to define a religion that doesn't rely on acknowledgement from a potentially hostile source is a good idea.

[Honeydewistania]

The target resolution does not include the actual nation in the identification of religions or religious sites - national authorities are specifically skipped over. The designation is strictly at the discretion of religious leaders only, who declare themselves directly with the international committee in order to garner protections regardless of the nation's interest.

I don't disagree with this, although a resolution protecting religious sites is presumably aimed at a government who does not want to acknowledge or support a religion whose site it is. Seeking out ways to define a religion that doesn't rely on acknowledgement from a potentially hostile source is a good idea.

Work that into your replacement

[Refuge Isle]

I don't disagree with this, although a resolution protecting religious sites is presumably aimed at a government who does not want to acknowledge or support a religion whose site it is. Seeking out ways to define a religion that doesn't rely on acknowledgement from a potentially hostile source is a good idea.

Work that into your replacement

Done and done. I spent some time of throwing together a replacement that both has teeth and approaches the goals more directly. In the process of writing and reasearching, I have some comments about this repeal.

Gratified by the long-standing success of General Assembly Resolution #287 "Cultural Site Preservation", which codifies identification and protection for sites with all manner of cultural significance, including religious significance;

Emphasis mine. I should like to clarify that nothing in GAR#287 recognises religious sites by name. It can be presumed that religious sites may be lumped in with everything else that's considered culturally significant. We'll never know for sure because WATCH, like OPRS, runs designations through a committee which is based on IC nation leaders' input. That doesn't necessarily provide for a religious site's protection when an administration comes through that says a religion's stuff isn't culturally significant, and it doesn't (like I said earlier) protect the sites for when those leaders want the thing destroyed.

While we're inferring that GAR#287 protects a site for being cultural, but religious sites have no other governance elsewhere, presumably it is permissible to legislate over the top of it, establish specific rules for religious sites and not have it be called overlap, duplication, etc and remove all doubt.

tl;dr, I think the phrase "including religious significance" is misleading at best and should be removed.

Dismayed by the resolution’s failure to set parameters on the size of the following of a religion, which permits any individual to declare the establishment of a ‘religion’ at any time in order to immediately gain international protections for their person and property against even the most reasonable of societal demands;

I don't care for this line either. A GA resolution has to apply to everyone's theoretical nations, including those that have been founded eight billion years ago, are composed of sapient termites, and have a territory of several planets. So having static terms instead of relative ones becomes a nightmare pretty fast. And I don't think there exists a definition under which a religion can be defined that wouldn't be unfair to at least one reasonable incarnation of one in an RP.

I presume this line is aimed at 1(b) saying that a "focus of worship" could be a leader of an org - fine, you can hit that. But even in such a case, that person requires a following who worships them, so "any individual [...] at any time" is just inaccurate.

[Honeydewistania]

Removed the offending bits

[Honeydewistania]

Bump; submitting soon

[Goobergunchia]

We agree with the content of the repeal, although will be forced to vote no pursuant to the Liberal Unitary Republic's customary position that when the World Assembly takes a position on a given subject, said matter should not be immediately relitigated unless there are exceptional circumstances.

If our Interior Minister contacts us regarding immediate adverse effects of the targeted resolution of the kind that we warned about during debate and advises us that in fact exceptional circumstances exist, we will be happy to vote in favor.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian WA Ambassador

[Imperium Anglorum]

Elsie Mortimer Wellesley. We offer our support for this proposal.

[Attempted Socialism]

I know that I dropped off suddenly, and couldn't clarify, but the flaw I mentioned earlier was in clause 1e, that museums also become sites of religious significance, but this means many existing museums are, by existing, in conflict with the mandates in clause 4, despite the attempt to carve out an exemption in 4a(v). Not that it matters now, where you are two votes from the queue and near the length limit. I support regardless.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Can you rename this to 'Repeal "Protecting Sites of Religious Significance"' or something like that?

[Sierra Lyricalia]

This is now at vote.

[Rosmana]

This is now at vote.

As soon as it clears my regime is going to blow up every ilegal Pagan ''shrine'' in my country.

OOC: Not my RL belief, per se.

[Wallenburg]

This is now at vote.

As soon as it clears my regime is going to blow up every ilegal Pagan ''shrine'' in my country.

OOC: Not my RL belief, per se.

"Likely that would run afoul of several other resolutions. I have a different question for you, though: if you are so opposed to religious liberty, why had you not already done this before the target was passed? This is hardly an old resolution."

[Rosmana]

As soon as it clears my regime is going to blow up every ilegal Pagan ''shrine'' in my country.

OOC: Not my RL belief, per se.

"Likely that would run afoul of several other resolutions. I have a different question for you, though: if you are so opposed to religious liberty, why had you not already done this before the target was passed? This is hardly an old resolution."

"We already have, and nothing has happened, probably because they see that they are not a valid religion"

OOC:I am not this radical btw.

[Teasoups]

THE TEASOUPS FEDERATION VOTES AGAINST THIS MADNESS

[The Greater Gothic Empire]

"This hell of a proposal is nothing more than a waste of space, and worse, by far the cruelest license for an explicitly secularist society to discourage religious expression and worship in countries which value religion above popular opinion and spirituality over worldly respect.

"If any nation attempts to destroy religious sites likely because of this proposal, you are destroying the most important treasures of its history and therefore turn the nation away from religion. Therefore, in the name of the Most Panomnipotent Empress and Pantocratrix, we vote against this proposal, and had this proposal was set into compulsory international law, we do our best to resist this happening into our glorious, God-believing Empire."

[Kenmoria]

"This hell of a proposal is nothing more than a waste of space, and worse, by far the cruelest license for an explicitly secularist society to discourage religious expression and worship in countries which value religion above popular opinion and spirituality over worldly respect.

"If any nation attempts to destroy religious sites likely because of this proposal, you are destroying the most important treasures of its history and therefore turn the nation away from religion. Therefore, in the name of the Most Panomnipotent Empress and Pantocratrix, we vote against this proposal, and had this proposal was set into compulsory international law, we do our best to resist this happening into our glorious, God-believing Empire."

“Ambassador, I question whether your delegation has fully considered this repeal. I refer you to the ‘troubled’, ‘further troubled’ and ‘confused’ clauses, all of which point out that the target resolution does, in some cases, not offer enough protection for religious sites. In addition, the ‘abhorring’, ‘notes’ and ‘annoyed’ clauses criticise the target’s overuse of bureaucracy and monetary funds, rather than the target’s protection of religious sites. I think that a member nation fully supporting of religion can support this repeal, on the basis of the target have flaws in execution.

It is for those reasons that I will be voting for this proposal.”

[Rosmana]

"I would have to ask you all this, what is the point of this resolution if it is never enforced?, our political enemies have accused us of violating this resolution several times, yet no action has ever been taken against us, so either we are completely right or the WA simply does not care"

-Delegate Hygar Lyste-

[Kenmoria]

"I would have to ask you all this, what is the point of this resolution if it is never enforced?, our political enemies have accused us of violating this resolution several times, yet no action has ever been taken against us, so either we are completely right or the WA simply does not care"

“Resolutions are enforced via the Administrative Compliance Act. Unless your government has received fines and sanctions, then it is in compliance with this and other currently-extant GA resolutions. Your political enemies are, as is common with those sorts of people, most likely lying. If you have, of course, received fines from the ACA, then you are not in compliance, and your political enemies have full licence to dominate the next election cycle, meritocratic election, kraterokratic tournament, lot, choosing of the monarchy, or whatever else your government does.”

[Rosmana]

"I would have to ask you all this, what is the point of this resolution if it is never enforced?, our political enemies have accused us of violating this resolution several times, yet no action has ever been taken against us, so either we are completely right or the WA simply does not care"

“Resolutions are enforced via the Administrative Compliance Act. Unless your government has received fines and sanctions, then it is in compliance with this and other currently-extant GA resolutions. Your political enemies are, as is common with those sorts of people, most likely lying. If you have, of course, received fines from the ACA, then you are not in compliance, and your political enemies have full licence to dominate the next election cycle, meritocratic election, kraterokratic tournament, lot, choosing of the monarchy, or whatever else your government does.”

"In other word you agree that the filthy, misandric neopagan terrorist ideologies such as Wicca are not a valid religion?, since we have never received fines or sanctions from the ACA, and does that mean we can put them all on the global WA list of terrorist organizations?"

[Kenmoria]

“Resolutions are enforced via the Administrative Compliance Act. Unless your government has received fines and sanctions, then it is in compliance with this and other currently-extant GA resolutions. Your political enemies are, as is common with those sorts of people, most likely lying. If you have, of course, received fines from the ACA, then you are not in compliance, and your political enemies have full licence to dominate the next election cycle, meritocratic election, kraterokratic tournament, lot, choosing of the monarchy, or whatever else your government does.”

"In other word you agree that the filthy, misandric neopagan terrorist ideologies such as Wicca are not a valid religion?, since we have never received fines or sanctions from the ACA"

Ambassador Lewitt idly begins to check his phone during the debate, scrolling through pages of WhatsApp messages. After a few minutes of scrolling, and about thirty seconds of texting, he places the device down and prepares to speak again. “After consultation with my ambassadorial staff,” he gestures to the phone, “I have realised you may be referring to the Demolition of the Neopagan Temple occurring recently. Now, this is rather clearly a temple under clause 1b, and the demolition thereof clearly a violation of clauses 4ai, 4aii and 4aiv. This is, of course, presuming that the leaders of the Wiccan faith met with the OPRS in clause 2a. I remind you, ambassador, that preventing this would also fall under the fines as distributed by the ACA.”

“You appear to be arguing that the Wiccan faith is not actually a religion. On the grounds that this is a faith practiced by a significant percentage of Kenmorians, and on the obvious grounds of human rights, I must condemn the government of Rosmama. Unofficially, I am somewhat impressed by the creative compliance here; it’s not as though the Kenmoria WA Mission’s avoidance of ACA fines is completely straightforward. However, I do question, under GA #002, is whether this was good faith compliance.”

“Unfortunately, GA #522 didn’t define ‘religion’. I can add that to the list of arguments as to why it should be repealed. Therefore, you at least didn’t violate the narrowest possible interpretation. However, GA precedent in GA #430 defined a religion as ‘any set of spiritual beliefs regarding the nature and origins of the universe involving a concept of the divine or supernatural’. Though definitions are only binding in the resolution in which they appear, but given that Wicca clearly is a set of spiritual beliefs to that nature, I am curious as to how your government defined religion, in a good-faith way, so as to exclude Wicca.”

[Rosmana]

"In other word you agree that the filthy, misandric neopagan terrorist ideologies such as Wicca are not a valid religion?, since we have never received fines or sanctions from the ACA"

Ambassador Lewitt idly begins to check his phone during the debate, scrolling through pages of WhatsApp messages. After a few minutes of scrolling, and about thirty seconds of texting, he places the device down and prepares to speak again. “After consultation with my ambassadorial staff,” he gestures to the phone, “I have realised you may be referring to the Demolition of the Neopagan Temple occurring recently. Now, this is rather clearly a temple under clause 1b, and the demolition thereof clearly a violation of clauses 4ai, 4aii and 4aiv. This is, of course, presuming that the leaders of the Wiccan faith met with the OPRS in clause 2a. I remind you, ambassador, that preventing this would also fall under the fines as distributed by the ACA.”

“You appear to be arguing that the Wiccan faith is not actually a religion. On the grounds that this is a faith practiced by a significant percentage of Kenmorians, and on the obvious grounds of human rights, I must condemn the government of Rosmama. Unofficially, I am somewhat impressed by the creative compliance here; it’s not as though the Kenmoria WA Mission’s avoidance of ACA fines is completely straightforward. However, I do question, under GA #002, is whether this was good faith compliance.”

“Unfortunately, GA #522 didn’t define ‘religion’. I can add that to the list of arguments as to why it should be repealed. Therefore, you at least didn’t violate the narrowest possible interpretation. However, GA precedent in GA #430 defined a religion as ‘any set of spiritual beliefs regarding the nature and origins of the universe involving a concept of the divine or supernatural’. Though definitions are only binding in the resolution in which they appear, but given that Wicca clearly is a set of spiritual beliefs to that nature, I am curious as to how your government defined religion, in a good-faith way, so as to exclude Wicca.”

Delegate Hygar Lyste slams his fist on the table as he sneers: "Our current government clearly sees Wicca as a pseudo religious entity that aims to glorify women above men, they falsely claim that the Catholic Church diminishes women by not allowing them to serve as priests, and that the church focuses too much on the so called ''divine masculine'', which is not true, see catechism 370, yet all their groups are dominated by the so-called "high priestesses'' and their entire ideology revolves around the glorification of their ''goddess'' and the feminine, and to be a ratified, tax-exempt religion in Rosmana you need a certain number of believers, you can apply to be a small spiritual community, but not if you abuse or laws to spread sexist propaganda or foreign, supremacist ideology in our fair nation''

OOC: Not my RL beliefs.

[Kenmoria]

Ambassador Lewitt idly begins to check his phone during the debate, scrolling through pages of WhatsApp messages. After a few minutes of scrolling, and about thirty seconds of texting, he places the device down and prepares to speak again. “After consultation with my ambassadorial staff,” he gestures to the phone, “I have realised you may be referring to the Demolition of the Neopagan Temple occurring recently. Now, this is rather clearly a temple under clause 1b, and the demolition thereof clearly a violation of clauses 4ai, 4aii and 4aiv. This is, of course, presuming that the leaders of the Wiccan faith met with the OPRS in clause 2a. I remind you, ambassador, that preventing this would also fall under the fines as distributed by the ACA.”

“You appear to be arguing that the Wiccan faith is not actually a religion. On the grounds that this is a faith practiced by a significant percentage of Kenmorians, and on the obvious grounds of human rights, I must condemn the government of Rosmama. Unofficially, I am somewhat impressed by the creative compliance here; it’s not as though the Kenmoria WA Mission’s avoidance of ACA fines is completely straightforward. However, I do question, under GA #002, is whether this was good faith compliance.”

“Unfortunately, GA #522 didn’t define ‘religion’. I can add that to the list of arguments as to why it should be repealed. Therefore, you at least didn’t violate the narrowest possible interpretation. However, GA precedent in GA #430 defined a religion as ‘any set of spiritual beliefs regarding the nature and origins of the universe involving a concept of the divine or supernatural’. Though definitions are only binding in the resolution in which they appear, but given that Wicca clearly is a set of spiritual beliefs to that nature, I am curious as to how your government defined religion, in a good-faith way, so as to exclude Wicca.”

Delegate Hygar Lyste slams his fist on the table as he sneers: "Our current government clearly sees Wicca as a pseudo religious entity that aims to glorify women above men, they falsely claim that the Catholic Church diminishes women by not allowing them to serve as priests, and that the church focuses too much on the so called ''divine masculine'', which is not true, see catechism 370, yet all their groups are dominated by the so-called "high priestesses'' and their entire ideology revolves around the glorification of their ''goddess'' and the feminine, and to be a ratified, tax-exempt religion in Rosmana you need a certain number of believers, you can apply to be a small spiritual community, but not if you abuse or laws to spread sexist propaganda or foreign, supremacist ideology in our fair nation''

“Your government is saying that Wicca is not a religion because it is discriminatory - that’s actually a kind of good argument, and does fall under plausible deniability. I know that Wicca has various branches that go from monotheistic to polytheistic, so a matriarchal branch is plausible and potentially common. Congratulations on successfully avoiding GA law by abusing terms that don’t have definitions. I do it all the time.”

Ambassador Lewitt’s phone begins to release a series of aggressive notifications. “This is of course an action formally condemned by the Kenmorian government, which will impose some kind of sanctions as soon as they gain actual power over the nation.” He throws the phone towards the paper shredder reserved for poor legislation, watching it be destroyed with a satisfying whirr. “For the record, I think you’re wrong about Wicca, but I don’t get paid enough to argue morality.”

[Rosmana]

Delegate Hygar Lyste slams his fist on the table as he sneers: "Our current government clearly sees Wicca as a pseudo religious entity that aims to glorify women above men, they falsely claim that the Catholic Church diminishes women by not allowing them to serve as priests, and that the church focuses too much on the so called ''divine masculine'', which is not true, see catechism 370, yet all their groups are dominated by the so-called "high priestesses'' and their entire ideology revolves around the glorification of their ''goddess'' and the feminine, and to be a ratified, tax-exempt religion in Rosmana you need a certain number of believers, you can apply to be a small spiritual community, but not if you abuse or laws to spread sexist propaganda or foreign, supremacist ideology in our fair nation''

“Your government is saying that Wicca is not a religion because it is discriminatory - that’s actually a kind of good argument, and does fall under plausible deniability. I know that Wicca has various branches that go from monotheistic to polytheistic, so a matriarchal branch is plausible and potentially common. Congratulations on successfully avoiding GA law by abusing terms that don’t have definitions. I do it all the time.”

Ambassador Lewitt’s phone begins to release a series of aggressive notifications. “This is of course an action formally condemned by the Kenmorian government, which will impose some kind of sanctions as soon as they gain actual power over the nation.” He throws the phone towards the paper shredder reserved for poor legislation, watching it be destroyed with a satisfying whirr. “For the record, I think you’re wrong about Wicca, but I don’t get paid enough to argue morality.”

Delegate Hygar Lyste sighs and says: "Perhaps you should come to Rosmana, and ask them yourselves, in our country I only see man hating women who view their own opinions as absolute truths, who see themselves as living goddesses, who claim only men can be sexist, and that women are by nature, less violent, more intelligent, better leaders, and overall superior to men in every way, furthermore I would like to say that such sanctions would not harm us, since we have no formal ties with your government, and since the WA has not sent us any formal condemnation we see this as a small complaint from a single nation"

[Kenmoria]

“Your government is saying that Wicca is not a religion because it is discriminatory - that’s actually a kind of good argument, and does fall under plausible deniability. I know that Wicca has various branches that go from monotheistic to polytheistic, so a matriarchal branch is plausible and potentially common. Congratulations on successfully avoiding GA law by abusing terms that don’t have definitions. I do it all the time.”

Ambassador Lewitt’s phone begins to release a series of aggressive notifications. “This is of course an action formally condemned by the Kenmorian government, which will impose some kind of sanctions as soon as they gain actual power over the nation.” He throws the phone towards the paper shredder reserved for poor legislation, watching it be destroyed with a satisfying whirr. “For the record, I think you’re wrong about Wicca, but I don’t get paid enough to argue morality.”

Delegate Hygar Lyste sighs and says: "Perhaps you should come to Rosmana, and ask them yourselves, in our country I only see man hating women who view their own opinions as absolute truths, who see themselves as loving goddesses, who claim only men can be sexist, and that women are by nature, less violent, more intelligent, better leaders, and overall superior to men in every way, furthermore I would like to say that such sanctions would not harm us, since we have no formal ties with your government, and since the WA has not sent us any formal condemnation we see this as a small complaint from a single nation"

Ambassador Lewitt walks over to the paper shredder, and addresses the phone currently bearing several large slashes in its exterior. “Do you hear that? There don’t exist any formal ties between Kenmoria and Rosmana. In fact, I don’t even think they coexist on a planet. Next time, why don’t you check before you start messaging me during debates?”

After prodding the phone further into the blades, he walks back to his seat, and resumes talking to someone who is not a phone. “I might go and have a look at Rosamana later on, provided I don’t get roped into another soirée or multiplanetary diplomatic crisis. That branch of Wicca does seem, provided your statements have been accurate, as something which could be classified as not being a religion, though I would have to check myself to make sure, and I am somewhat distrusting of your description.”

“Oh, and don’t bother worrying about the Kenmorian government; it can hardly control its own land, let alone someone else’s. The problems only start occurring if you bother the GA committees. There was a time when misusing funds for the Humanities subjects would lead to nuclear waste aid being withdrawn. As long as you can hide between a semicoherent argument, they don’t seem to care.”